What to make of Die Bundesliga?

Fortitude

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Disclaimer: not a dig at the league, just a simple discussion before the defensive posts start!

With that out of the way, this is an open discussion, obviously, but more geared toward people who actually watch it and can give an objective analysis of what they're seeing.

I used to watch it frequently, but that hasn't been the case in half a decade. Since then, I'll watch games with touted talent that we could/should be moving for (Havertz, Sancho, Brandt in particular at the moment) rather than getting invested in title races and games in general.

Since I was a frequent watcher through until now, where I'm not, there seems to have been quite a significant shift to really haphazard, crazy, open games where both teams just go back and forth in a non-stop goal assault. Even when games need to be closed out, teams just keep attacking and maintaining suicidally high lines. It makes for a curious spectacle, but nothing I'd expect to see from a top division.

There's no such thing as a perfect league, and before anyone offers up the counter of how poor the PL is at whatever aspect, it is beside the point, with that point being that teams in the PL try to close games out, are cynical and it has a number of pragmatic teams. The same goes for La Liga; in the main, teams do consider game management and attempt to see out games. Die Bundesliga, by contrast, appears to be too honest, too open and too game.

What this thread ultimately comes down to is how attacking players (and even defenders) should be perceived and whether the style of the league is by-the-by with talent simply being talent that is transferable - should the tallies of goals and assists be taken at face value, or a suspected taper (weighting) applied, in that output should rightfully be expected to lessen in a higher coefficient league? The time of the likes of De Bruyne at Wolfsburg coming straight into the PL and carrying on where he left off... Die Bundesliga does not look like the league it did then - would you expect the stars of this iteration of it to do the same thing? I wouldn't refute anyone saying the CL and EL are the great equalisers here, but there again, are the German teams (not just Bayern) holding up when paired with English or Spanish sides?
 

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I find it funny that you make it seem like the Bundesliga was very highly rated back then. I was already browsing this forum when Dortmund and Bayern were in their primes and people used to belittle the Bundesliga just as they do now. Honestly, this whole narrative of the Bundesliga being a paradise for attacking players is just so silly. One or two years ago, the discussion revolved around the destructiveness of the Bundesliga because no team really wanted to player progressive football. Every club just pressed like maniacs or sat deep, not even the teams competing for CL spots knew what to do with the ball when there was no transitional moment. The league was perceived as boring and of low attacking quality. That was at most (!) two (!) years ago. And now, suddenly, the perception turned around completely and everyone is talking about the shit defending.

I'm sorry, but IMO the British fans always search for reasons to belittle other leagues. Even when Bundesliga teams were dominating English clubs in international tournaments in the early years of the last decade because your league was painfully underdeveloped in terms of tactics and La Liga won almost everything there was to win, the common opinion in here was that the EPL was the best league in the world. Back then, EPL matches looked like handball games. The famous box to box midfielders could just carry the ball across almost the whole pitch without any kind of pressure. Around that time, pressing became really popular in Germany and when English and German teams faced each other, the English ones - although they had better players - looked completely out of their depth because they didn't know this kind of pressure on the ball in midfield areas. And even then there were posts like the one you just wrote.

Thing is, the quality of the Bundesliga hasn't changed that much. The EPL has progressed tremendously and is now very good from a tactical perspective. Funny enough that has to do with EPL clubs appointing relatively young and modern foreign managers like Klopp, Guardiola, Pocchetino, Conte, Sarri, etc. Hasenhüttl receives praise in here for how he set up a low profile team. His approach is very common in the Bundesliga, with many coaches applying similar concepts, and yet you think they would be teared to shreds in the EPL? How?
 

arthurka

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I find it funny that you make it seem like the Bundesliga was very highly rated back then. I was already browsing this forum when Dortmund and Bayern were in their primes and people used to belittle the Bundesliga just as they do now. Honestly, this whole narrative of the Bundesliga being a paradise for attacking players is just so silly. One or two years ago, the discussion revolved around the destructiveness of the Bundesliga because no team really wanted to player progressive football. Every club just pressed like maniacs or sat deep, not even the teams competing for CL spots knew what to do with the ball when there was no transitional moment. The league was perceived as boring and of low attacking quality. That was at most (!) two (!) years ago. And now, suddenly, the perception turned around completely and everyone is talking about the shit defending.

I'm sorry, but IMO the British fans always search for reasons to belittle other leagues. Even when Bundesliga teams were dominating English clubs in international tournaments in the early years of the last decade because your league was painfully underdeveloped in terms of tactics and La Liga won almost everything there was to win, the common opinion in here was that the EPL was the best league in the world. Back then, EPL matches looked like handball games. The famous box to box midfielders could just carry the ball across almost the whole pitch without any kind of pressure. Around that time, pressing became really popular in Germany and when English and German teams faced each other, the English ones - although they had better players - looked completely out of their depth because they didn't know this kind of pressure on the ball in midfield areas. And even then there were posts like the one you just wrote.

Thing is, the quality of the Bundesliga hasn't changed that much. The EPL has progressed tremendously and is now very good from a tactical perspective. Funny enough that has to do with EPL clubs appointing relatively young and modern foreign managers like Klopp, Guardiola, Pocchetino, Conte, Sarri, etc. Hasenhüttl receives praise in here for how he set up a low profile team. His approach is very common in the Bundesliga, with many coaches applying similar concepts, and yet you think they would be teared to shreds in the EPL? How?
Thanks you almost answered all the issues I wanted to point out.
 

redshaw

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I have some reservation with how well players have done in Germany in recent years

Javier Hernandez, Jovic, Haller, Mkhitaryan, Masour Ousmane Dembele have ripped it up there. When I watch the games they have so much space, it's like there's a directive to push on and make the league attractive commercially.
 

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I don't know, I don't like the use of Die if you are already making the title in English. Why not just use "What to make of Bundesliga?", or if you want to look smart you should titled it "Was soll Ich machen die Bundesliga?" (I hope google translate did good job there).
 

Zehner

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I have some reservation with how well players have done in Germany in recent years

Javier Hernandez, Jovic, Haller, Mkhitaryan, Masour Ousmane Dembele have ripped it up there. When I watch the games they have so much space, it's like there's a directive to push on and make the league attractive commercially.
Chicharito wasn't good for us. Mkhitaryan had one (!) good season and was utterly shit for the remaining years he spent with Dortmund. Dembele was great for one season and made a very bad career choice. Jovic and Haller are another two examples of players who were good for one season. It's still early days for them, by the way. Funny enough, they had their best games in international tournaments, tearing teams to shreds that weren't even playing in the Bundesliga. Do you think they also received a directive to make the Bundesliga commercially attractive?

Honestly, these double standards are hard to bear. You read so much bullshit in here. When a player from the EPL leaves and plays like shit in another league, nobody badges an eye. But if one Bundesliga player leaves for a foreign club and spends his first season on the bench behind Karim fecking Benzema it is a sign of the low quality. I mean, what the hell? Why are we talking about Jovic and Haller after half (!) a season but not about Aubameyang, de Bruyne, Özil, Kroos, Son, Gündogan, Sane, Söyüncü, Carvajal, Vidal, Rakitic, ter Stegen, Firmino, Matip and so forth?

And what's that kind of logic to begin with? There can be so many reasons a player doesn't make it. Immobile is scoring for fun in Italy but was shit in the Bundesliga and La Liga. Cristiano though is scoring less than he used to do and is being outscored by Immobile.
 

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I don't know, I don't like the use of Die if you are already making the title in English. Why not just use "What to make of Bundesliga?", or if you want to look smart you should titled it "Was soll Ich machen die Bundesliga?" (I hope google translate did good job there).
Just say the Bundesliga. Also, gargle translate fecked up there I'm afraid ;)
 

Andersons Dietician

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Personally I think the standard of defending has dropped. Even the execution of tactics within defending has dropped. However it’s making for a really exciting game with lots of goals and really that’s what everyone wants to see.
 

Fortitude

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I find it funny that you make it seem like the Bundesliga was very highly rated back then. I was already browsing this forum when Dortmund and Bayern were in their primes and people used to belittle the Bundesliga just as they do now. Honestly, this whole narrative of the Bundesliga being a paradise for attacking players is just so silly.
Don't know about consensus takes on the league of that time - do you have any posts in mind? I am talking about my own experience of watching the league properly, to now, watching it fleetingly, and to that end, the games are crazy now compared to then.

One or two years ago, the discussion revolved around the destructiveness of the Bundesliga because no team really wanted to player progressive football. Every club just pressed like maniacs or sat deep, not even the teams competing for CL spots knew what to do with the ball when there was no transitional moment. The league was perceived as boring and of low attacking quality. That was at most (!) two (!) years ago. And now, suddenly, the perception turned around completely and everyone is talking about the shit defending.
Has there actually been a prominent thread on this before or are you talking about a few select posts? If there has been a thread, please link me so I can have a read; if it is just a few posts, or just a few posters repeating their views, it's hardly a blanket regard for the league of that time as a whole, is it?

I'm sorry, but IMO the British fans always search for reasons to belittle other leagues. Even when Bundesliga teams were dominating English clubs in international tournaments in the early years of the last decade because your league was painfully underdeveloped in terms of tactics and La Liga won almost everything there was to win, the common opinion in here was that the EPL was the best league in the world.
I think you're confusing wumminator's WUMing with plenty of others shooting the notion down, constantly. There's little delusion of grandeur re. the PL since the end of its golden age when multiple teams were a force in the CL. And currently, the league is scene as a shambles and perhaps in its worst season of this entire millennium.


Back then, EPL matches looked like handball games. The famous box to box midfielders could just carry the ball across almost the whole pitch without any kind of pressure. Around that time, pressing became really popular in Germany and when English and German teams faced each other, the English ones - although they had better players - looked completely out of their depth because they didn't know this kind of pressure on the ball in midfield areas. And even then there were posts like the one you just wrote.
Can you link me? Potshots at La Liga and Ligue Un have been prevalent here, but with regard to the former, that died a death when teams other than Real and Barca constantly won the EL. Atletico also went a longgggg way to killing that conversation with their traditional principles and one of the great defences of the century. As I recall, the shots at German football tend to revolve around how Bayern plunder their rivals and it being a walkover for them - not shots at the league as a whole.

Doubts arose with players coming to the PL from Die Bundesliga and not doing well, but even then, that was mostly about them being system players for Dortmund, and not questions of the entire league. So if I've missed what you're talking about, feel free to fill me in on those discussions.

Thing is, the quality of the Bundesliga hasn't changed that much. The EPL has progressed tremendously and is now very good from a tactical perspective. Funny enough that has to do with EPL clubs appointing relatively young and modern foreign managers like Klopp, Guardiola, Pocchetino, Conte, Sarri, etc. Hasenhüttl receives praise in here for how he set up a low profile team. His approach is very common in the Bundesliga, with many coaches applying similar concepts, and yet you think they would be teared to shreds in the EPL? How?
Quality is a broad term that encompasses a lot in itself, right? I don't think there is a doubt that there is a stack of attacking talent in that league right now, the question is more revolved around whether it would be as strong outside of such manic and open conditions or if Die Bundesliga is a unique incubator and breeding ground in the way teams express themselves.

The EPL is in a terrible state right now, so the point you're making about it doesn't really stick - what isn't in doubt about it, though, is that teams try really hard to see games out in the traditional manner, not via more chaos. Conditions are stifling relative to this current version of Die Bundesliga where everything is 100mph back and forth non-stop until the final whistle is blown.
 

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Chicharito wasn't good for us. Mkhitaryan had one (!) good season and was utterly shit for the remaining years he spent with Dortmund. Dembele was great for one season and made a very bad career choice. Jovic and Haller are another two examples of players who were good for one season. It's still early days for them, by the way. Funny enough, they had their best games in international tournaments, tearing teams to shreds that weren't even playing in the Bundesliga. Do you think they also received a directive to make the Bundesliga commercially attractive?

Honestly, these double standards are hard to bear. You read so much bullshit in here. When a player from the EPL leaves and plays like shit in another league, nobody badges an eye. But if one Bundesliga player leaves for a foreign club and spends his first season on the bench behind Karim fecking Benzema it is a sign of the low quality. I mean, what the hell? Why are we talking about Jovic and Haller after half (!) a season but not about Aubameyang, de Bruyne, Özil, Kroos, Son, Gündogan, Sane, Söyüncü, Carvajal, Vidal, Rakitic, ter Stegen, Firmino, Matip and so forth?

And what's that kind of logic to begin with? There can be so many reasons a player doesn't make it. Immobile is scoring for fun in Italy but was shit in the Bundesliga and La Liga. Cristiano though is scoring less than he used to do and is being outscored by Immobile.
I think its just English fans being insecure about any league not theirs. Almost like a teenage girl who needs to hear she is the best at everything. If any player does anything good in any league, they must find a way to discount it. Jovic is being slated for not delivering in Madrid when he barely play cos of Benz who is a Zidane favorite has the same number of goals as Hazard in the same team playing lesser games. Debruyne is about to win the top assist award for the 3rd time in EPL

For 1 Sancho who succeded there is a Recce oxford, Ademola Lookman or Ampadu whose career did not fare any better
 

Fortitude

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I don't know, I don't like the use of Die if you are already making the title in English. Why not just use "What to make of Bundesliga?", or if you want to look smart you should titled it "Was soll Ich machen die Bundesliga?" (I hope google translate did good job there).
That would be like calling Ligue Un, "League one" or La Liga, "The League", I think?

Google translate has made a mischief for you, btw, as that would be: What should I make the Bundesliga.

Die Bundesliga is its official name,?
 

Harry190

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Entertaining league, but not a very good one. The standard's pretty low, few exceptions aside.
Mind you the Premier League has been poor this year as well.
 

Chipper

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I've always seen it a bit more open compared to England. Just had a look, in the the last 9 seasons there were more goals per game every season in the Bundesliga than there were in the PL.

Last season and this season have gone crazy, well over 3 goals per game and the Bundesliga is currently more of a goal bonanza than the famously open Eredivisie.

I see it as fun and wholesome, maybe a bit naive.
 

Fortitude

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I think its just English fans being insecure about any league not theirs. If any player does anything in any league, they must find a way to discount it. Jovic is being slated for not delivering in Madrid when he has the same number of goals as Hazard in the same team playing lesser games. Debruyne is about to win the top assist award for the 3rd time in EPL

For 1 Sancho who succeded there is a Recce oxford, Ademola Lookman or Ampadu whose career did not fare any better
Well no, of course it isn't as there are a whole host of attacking talents people here would bite your hand off to have in their teams.

At the moment, though, you're not going to hear much clamour for defenders because it's incredibly hard to gauge them. There is also a doubt as to how much of what you see from attackers there would come with them to the PL.

You don't think that's a rational consideration to take into account?
 

horsechoker

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I don't know, I don't like the use of Die if you are already making the title in English. Why not just use "What to make of Bundesliga?", or if you want to look smart you should titled it "Was soll Ich machen die Bundesliga?" (I hope google translate did good job there).
It says The Bundesliga The
 

redshaw

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Why are we talking about Jovic and Haller after half (!) a season but not about Aubameyang, de Bruyne, Özil, Kroos, Son, Gündogan, Sane, Söyüncü, Carvajal, Vidal, Rakitic, ter Stegen, Firmino, Matip and so forth?
I was going to mention Aubameyang as a counter point and no-one is saying everything is bad. You come across like some extreme defence force.

Ozil Kroos, Son De bruyne Carvajal and so forth were further back, some much further. Most of the talk about a drop is based from the last 1-3 years whether right or wrong, from players to just taking in the games. Kroos coming from peak Bayern 6 years ago has nothing to do with the current conversation.

I've always seen it a bit more open compared to England. Just had a look, in the the last 9 seasons there were more goals per game every season in the Bundesliga than there were in the PL.

Last season and this season have gone crazy, well over 3 goals per game and the Bundesliga is currently more of a goal bonanza than the famously open Eredivisie.

I see it as fun and wholesome, maybe a bit naive.
If the stats are true then yes this is what people are talking about. Players scoring and assisting a boat load in the last 1-2 years but they might not be as effective in another league. Sancho does look a top class player even if he delivers half the amount though.
 
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Fortitude

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Chicharito wasn't good for us. Mkhitaryan had one (!) good season and was utterly shit for the remaining years he spent with Dortmund. Dembele was great for one season and made a very bad career choice. Jovic and Haller are another two examples of players who were good for one season. It's still early days for them, by the way. Funny enough, they had their best games in international tournaments, tearing teams to shreds that weren't even playing in the Bundesliga. Do you think they also received a directive to make the Bundesliga commercially attractive?

Honestly, these double standards are hard to bear. You read so much bullshit in here. When a player from the EPL leaves and plays like shit in another league, nobody badges an eye. But if one Bundesliga player leaves for a foreign club and spends his first season on the bench behind Karim fecking Benzema it is a sign of the low quality. I mean, what the hell? Why are we talking about Jovic and Haller after half (!) a season but not about Aubameyang, de Bruyne, Özil, Kroos, Son, Gündogan, Sane, Söyüncü, Carvajal, Vidal, Rakitic, ter Stegen, Firmino, Matip and so forth?

And what's that kind of logic to begin with? There can be so many reasons a player doesn't make it. Immobile is scoring for fun in Italy but was shit in the Bundesliga and La Liga. Cristiano though is scoring less than he used to do and is being outscored by Immobile.
If you read the OP (and @Chipper pointed to the same thing) the time those players were in the league are not the same as how it is now. I concur with the view that the product I was watching intently a few years back is not the same as the one I've come back to, so listing those players isn't indicative of the here and now.

You'll also find that some of those you've listed were being raved about and highly coveted (along with Reus) before making their move to another league.

I don't think people doubt the players that are doing great things there now, per se, but there has to be a question mark of how much of it is attributed to how the game is being played there at the moment. I don't think it's an irrational thought to have.
 

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Don't know about consensus takes on the league of that time - do you have any posts in mind? I am talking about my own experience of watching the league properly, to now, watching it fleetingly, and to that end, the games are crazy now compared to then.

Has there actually been a prominent thread on this before or are you talking about a few select posts? If there has been a thread, please link me so I can have a read; if it is just a few posts, or just a few posters repeating their views, it's hardly a blanket regard for the league of that time as a whole, is it?


I think you're confusing wumminator's WUMing with plenty of others shooting the notion down, constantly. There's little delusion of grandeur re. the PL since the end of its golden age when multiple teams were a force in the CL. And currently, the league is scene as a shambles and perhaps in its worst season of this entire millennium.


Can you link me? Potshots at La Liga and Ligue Un have been prevalent here, but with regard to the former, that died a death when teams other than Real and Barca constantly won the EL. Atletico also went a longgggg way to killing that conversation with their traditional principles and one of the great defences of the century. As I recall, the shots at German football tend to revolve around how Bayern plunder their rivals and it being a walkover for them - not shots at the league as a whole.

Doubts arose with players coming to the PL from Die Bundesliga and not doing well, but even then, that was mostly about them being system players for Dortmund, and not questions of the entire league. So if I've missed what you're talking about, feel free to fill me in on those discussions.

Quality is a broad term that encompasses a lot in itself, right? I don't think there is a doubt that there is a stack of attacking talent in that league right now, the question is more revolved around whether it would be as strong outside of such manic and open conditions or if Die Bundesliga is a unique incubator and breeding ground in the way teams express themselves.

The EPL is in a terrible state right now, so the point you're making about it doesn't really stick - what isn't in doubt about it, though, is that teams try really hard to see games out in the traditional manner, not via more chaos. Conditions are stifling relative to this current version of Die Bundesliga where everything is 100mph back and forth non-stop until the final whistle is blown.
It was more of a general impression back then. There's not one particular thread I have in mind (bare maybe the "relative strength of the Premier League one). Lots of side digs in topics revolving around the Bundesliga (the Bundesliga thread back then, topics on players, especially when Kagawa, Mkhitaryan, Sahin etc. failed outside Dortmund).

Regarding La Liga, there were always those voices who said that they wouldn't dominate the EPL as they did in Spain or that Messi's and Cristiano's goal records were inflated by them playing in the Spanish equivalent of the EPL. However, those deluded posts were comparingly few. The league strength outside the top 3 was a more popular point of criticism and I don't agree that the EPL titles of Sevilla changed that. The argument was brought up many in times in here, obviously, but that didn't prevent people from making the same points anyway. it still hasn't died out and is a very popular opinion in here - at least in my perception.

Right now, the narrative that Bundesliga teams are so open is trending. I think those dynamics usually have to do something with what happens at United. This time, the catalyst was the Haaland signing. It doesn't matter that Dortmund looked completely toothless in the first games of the season. They see the three odd games they had now scoring wise and although the sample size is so small, they take on that narrative since it is a welcome diversion from the fact that this could be your player ("meh, he wouldn't have scored that much in the EPL anyway"). And before that, it was the Mkhitaryan and Kagawa signing ("players donÄt work outside of Dortmund, stay away from them") etc.

Regarding the part of the destructive nature of the German league a few seasons earlier, I think there was a discussion in the respective Bundesliga thread about how dull the league has become. It was also a big topic in German forums. Tedesco's second place in his first season at Schalke was part of that. Back then, many many games in the league were very boring. Dortmund didn't look like a great team under Stöger, Leverkusen played atrocious football under Herrlich, Frankfurt under Kovac was very cynical and so forth.

I think what has changed since then is that the top teams play much more progressive football. Bosz instead of Herrlich, Favre instead of Stöger, Hütter instead of Kovac, Rose instead of Hecking, Nagelsmann instead of Hasenhüttl, etc.
 

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Bayern are playing RB Leipzig in a couple of hours and that game will probably be 5-4. At half time.

It’s fun to watch but it’s a joke of a league and plays like high-school football, with little tactical or defensive awareness at all. I love watching it though. I had a girl round the house yesterday who can barely stomach football at all, but even she stopped asking me to change the channel after about 10 minutes because ‘this game is exciting, sort of like basketball’.
 

Fortitude

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It was more of a general impression back then. There's not one particular thread I have in mind (bare maybe the "relative strength of the Premier League one). Lots of side digs in topics revolving around the Bundesliga (the Bundesliga thread back then, topics on players, especially when Kagawa, Mkhitaryan, Sahin etc. failed outside Dortmund).

Regarding La Liga, there were always those voices who said that they wouldn't dominate the EPL as they did in Spain or that Messi's and Cristiano's goal records were inflated by them playing in the Spanish equivalent of the EPL. However, those deluded posts were comparingly few. The league strength outside the top 3 was a more popular point of criticism and I don't agree that the EPL titles of Sevilla changed that. The argument was brought up many in times in here, obviously, but that didn't prevent people from making the same points anyway. it still hasn't died out and is a very popular opinion in here - at least in my perception.

Right now, the narrative that Bundesliga teams are so open is trending. I think those dynamics usually have to do something with what happens at United. This time, the catalyst was the Haaland signing. It doesn't matter that Dortmund looked completely toothless in the first games of the season. They see the three odd games they had now scoring wise and although the sample size is so small, they take on that narrative since it is a welcome diversion from the fact that this could be your player ("meh, he wouldn't have scored that much in the EPL anyway"). And before that, it was the Mkhitaryan and Kagawa signing ("players donÄt work outside of Dortmund, stay away from them") etc.

Regarding the part of the destructive nature of the German league a few seasons earlier, I think there was a discussion in the respective Bundesliga thread about how dull the league has become. It was also a big topic in German forums. Tedesco's second place in his first season at Schalke was part of that. Back then, many many games in the league were very boring. Dortmund didn't look like a great team under Stöger, Leverkusen played atrocious football under Herrlich, Frankfurt under Kovac was very cynical and so forth.

I think what has changed since then is that the top teams play much more progressive football. Bosz instead of Herrlich, Favre instead of Stöger, Hütter instead of Kovac, Rose instead of Hecking, Nagelsmann instead of Hasenhüttl, etc.
Admittedly, I haven't frequented a Bundesliga specific thread (the stickies) for a long time, so I wouldn't know about shots fired in there, but as a main bone of contention in its own thread, I have rarely heard of the league being played down outside of Dortmund having system players and Bayern winning it every year. Even now, I'm asking what the take people have of die Bundesliga is, even though I've stated my position in thinking it crazily open compared to what I was used to seeing.

You cannot take Wumminator's thread at face value beings as it was set up to essentially troll and generate heated discussion, which it did, with frequent detractors breaking down how good/bad every single aspect of the PL was down to the minute on more than one occasion.

Perhaps I've missed them, but proper discussions about La Liga simply haven't been had because it'd be risible to claim anything other than it being a force during its own golden age last decade.

For what it's worth, 'boring' usually translates as difficult to score in and pragmatic, and when attackers thrive in those conditions, absolutely everyone raves about them - it would be the same as some magical defender(s) performing expertly in a wildly attack-minded league, as they would instantaneously become highly coveted.
 

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I like @Zehner but it's all going to go to shit when Chelsea and Spurs beat Bayern and Leipzeg.

I agree with your assessment that this tripe about the BL has always been prevalent, even when the BL clubs were outperforming the EPL teams in the early part of the last decade, but these last couple of seasons I think there is a point that the BL isn't that great and a distant third best behind both the EPL and La Liga.

Both Serie A and BL compete for those last 2 spots in the 'Top 4' European league ranking. Before La Liga was top and the BL would've been second.
 

Zehner

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I was going to mention Aubameyang as a counter point and no-one is saying everything is bad. You come across like some extreme defence force.

Ozil Kroos, Son De bruyne Carvajal and so forth were further back, some much further. Most of the talk about a drop is based from the last 1-3 years whether right or wrong, from players to just taking in the games. Kroos coming from peak Bayern 6 years ago has nothing to do with the current conversation.



If the stats are true then yes this is what people are talking about. Players scoring and assisting a boat load in the last 1-2 years but they might not be as effective in another league. Sancho does look a top class player even if he delivers half the amount though.

Yeah, because there hasn't been any high profile transfers out of the league besides Jovic to Madrid and Dembele to Barca. Brandt just signed for Dortmund, Havertz is still at Leverkusen, Sancho at Dortmund and Werner at Leipzig. We'll see how those guys do when they finally leave Germany.
 

Zehner

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I like @Zehner but it's all going to go to shit when Chelsea and Spurs beat Bayern and Leipzeg.

I agree with your assessment that this tripe about the BL has always been prevalent, even when the BL clubs were outperforming the EPL teams in the early part of the last decade, but these last couple of seasons I think there is a point that the BL isn't that great and a distant third best behind both the EPL and La Liga.

Both Serie A and BL compete for those last 2 spots in the 'Top 4' European league ranking. Before La Liga was top and the BL would've been second.
Oh I don't deny that. The EPL and La Liga are far ahead of the Bundesliga. But the reasons for that are that they have the top 6, especially, City and Liverpool, respectively Barca and Madrid and not that it's so easy to score in the Bundesliga. That probably won't change. The Bundesliga may be able to overtake the EPL or La Liga for a season or two but ultimately, the financial strength of the EPL and La Liga's top teams will always attract players. We don't have clubs of that size other than Bayern. Dortmund may enter this tier in the long run but then it's still only two clubs.

However, at the moment, there's just an almost ridiculous amount of attacking talent in the league. That Dortmund side is so good offensively that it would tear EPL defences apart just like it does in Germany. And RBL, too. Not to mention Bayern.
 

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The time of the likes of De Bruyne at Wolfsburg coming straight into the PL and carrying on where he left off.
De Bruyne's quality was obvious back then and on a totally different level to anyone who's playing in the league right now including established top players like Lewandowski or hyped up young talents like Sancho. It wasn't just because of stats, which arguably are (and always were slightly inflated in the Bundesliga compared to other leagues because of the higher goals/game average). He just lifted average players around him and took responsibility like a true leader. He truely carried that Wolfsburg side. When Mhikitaryan moved to United one year after De Bruyne went, the Caf completely hyped up an inconsistent player who was constantly criticised for folding under pressure because he had comparable stats in a free flowing attacking side in which he wasn't even the best player, ignoring how truely awful he was the previous year.

As a comparison, Coutinho has been average at best for Barca and Bayern despite his great performances at Liverpool. His stats look okay-ish at Bayern, but he's still struggling to make the first XI and is outperformed by Goretzka or Müller. Someone mentioned Chicharito as an example for increased stats in the Bundesliga, but after a great start his stats got worse and overall his minutes/goal average was actually worse in the Bundesliga than during his time at United. Yet you'll continue to read here that he's proof of the opposite and posts that call it bullshit are just seen as "defensive".

The notion that the difference in quality is so big that you can't actually determine quality players when you take the time to watch them is simply absurd though, as is the whole "premier league proven" tag. You just need to look at Liverpool's attack, which consists of a former Bundesliga player, who clearly improved since moving to England, a player who failed in England before returning after a successful spell in Italy and a Premier League proven player who improved further after making the step up from a smaller to a bigger club. Great coaching with the right scouting leads to success and it can come from pretty much anywhere. To use Firminho as an example, who also was called out as an example for failing in the Premier League because he couldn't match that one season when he had insane stats. Yet after 5 years in the Premier League his stats are overall better than they were in 5 years in Germany.

For what it's worth, the Bundesliga right now is somewhat boring despite the exciting games because the overall quality has gone downwards. Partly because we lost too many quality managers (Heynckes, Klopp, Guardiola, Tuchel were/are all significantly better than any manager in the league right now with maybe Nagelsmann the exception, but that's in the future). But also because of too many clubs with huge potential failing to compete at a high enough standard to push Bayern and to a lesser degree Dortmund to make better decisions. Still, individual quality shines through and will succeed in other leagues, just like you'll always have one season wonders who make the move to a big club too soon and fail. All that happens in every league, just don't be lazy and judge them on goals and assists stats alone.
 

Pagh Wraith

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I'm German and while I follow it just as I follow all major leagues, I cannot really get into it. If there's Dortmund v Leverkusen and Palace v Burnley on, I'll watch the latter. It's hard to pinpoint exactly why. The poor defending is certainly part of it but I wouldn't blame it on that entirely.
 

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Yeah, because there hasn't been any high profile transfers out of the league besides Jovic to Madrid and Dembele to Barca. Brandt just signed for Dortmund, Havertz is still at Leverkusen, Sancho at Dortmund and Werner at Leipzig. We'll see how those guys do when they finally leave Germany.
Jovic has not been able to get a starting shirt because he has Benzema ahead of him, Dembele has been injured most of the time. Aubameyang is one high profile Bundesliga player that left recently and we see how he is faring
 

redshaw

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It's a good point about managers. Italy has seen some return and Inter and Italy an in an upwards trajectory, said that before ball was kicked. Two top players in Eriksen and Lukaku have ended up in Italy and they're in a better shout for a Europa League. Dortmund could do well this time in the CL, Haaland is probably effective everywhere but time will tell. England had enjoyed a glut of top managers.

Aubameyang delivered a lot of goals in the stronger periods in 2015> and finally moved on. It's not a surprise to see someone like him do well. He's left recently but has done the business over there for 4-5 years. It's more 2018/19 19/20 that people talk about, Auba had left by then. No-one is saying every single player either, it's more a trend/transition into what you see now.
 
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kaiser1

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It's more 2018/19 19/20 that people talk about, Auba had left by then.
Who were these players that left in these seasons?

Jovic who cannot bench Benzema, Soyuncu who has gone to become one of the best defenders in the league, Pulisic who was sitting on the bench for Bruun Larsen at Dortmund. Alex Isak who is having a fair season at Sociedad who else
 
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Balu

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Aubameyang delivered a lot of goals in the stronger periods in 2015> and finally moved on. It's not a surprise to see someone like him do well. He's left recently but has done the business over there for 4-5 years. It's more 2018/19 19/20 that people talk about, Auba had left by then.
Lewandowski scored 30 goals in 15/16 and 16/17, then 29 and 22 in the last two seasons. He's on 20 now, so should end up around 30 again, but there isn't a huge change to see over the last 3 years. Reus scored 18 goals in 11/12 at Gladbach, 14 and 16 in 12/13 and 13/14 and 17 last season, which was the first season where he didn't miss lots of games because of injuries. Again, hardly a huge change visible. Thomas Müller scored significantly more between 2012 and 2016 compared to the last 4 years. I doubt you can find several players who played in the Bundesliga over the last decade and suddenly have signficantly higher stats over the last 2-3 years.

I really think people overrate the change of the last 2-3 years. If you look at the goals/game averages in the Bundesliga since the 2012/13 season, you'll see that the number of goals isn't that much crazier than it was 6-7 years ago:

2012/2013 goals/game on average: 2.9
2013/2014 goals/game on average: 3.2
2014/2015 goals/game on average: 2.8
2015/2016 goals/game on average: 2.8
2016/2017 goals/game on average: 2.9
2017/2018 goals/game on average: 2.8
2018/2019 goals/game on average: 3.2
2019/2020 goals/game on average: 3.3

There is a worrying trend regarding defending over this and last season, but it's overall similar to 2013/14 for example.
 
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Fortitude

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De Bruyne's quality was obvious back then and on a totally different level to anyone who's playing in the league right now including established top players like Lewandowski or hyped up young talents like Sancho. It wasn't just because of stats, which arguably are (and always were slightly inflated in the Bundesliga compared to other leagues because of the higher goals/game average). He just lifted average players around him and took responsibility like a true leader. He truely carried that Wolfsburg side. When Mhikitaryan moved to United one year after De Bruyne went, the Caf completely hyped up an inconsistent player who was constantly criticised for folding under pressure because he had comparable stats in a free flowing attacking side in which he wasn't even the best player, ignoring how truely awful he was the previous year.

As a comparison, Coutinho has been average at best for Barca and Bayern despite his great performances at Liverpool. His stats look okay-ish at Bayern, but he's still struggling to make the first XI and is outperformed by Goretzka or Müller. Someone mentioned Chicharito as an example for increased stats in the Bundesliga, but after a great start his stats got worse and overall his minutes/goal average was actually worse in the Bundesliga than during his time at United. Yet you'll continue to read here that he's proof of the opposite and posts that call it bullshit are just seen as "defensive".

The notion that the difference in quality is so big that you can't actually determine quality players when you take the time to watch them is simply absurd though, as is the whole "premier league proven" tag. You just need to look at Liverpool's attack, which consists of a former Bundesliga player, who clearly improved since moving to England, a player who failed in England before returning after a successful spell in Italy and a Premier League proven player who improved further after making the step up from a smaller to a bigger club. Great coaching with the right scouting leads to success and it can come from pretty much anywhere. To use Firminho as an example, who also was called out as an example for failing in the Premier League because he couldn't match that one season when he had insane stats. Yet after 5 years in the Premier League his stats are overall better than they were in 5 years in Germany.

For what it's worth, the Bundesliga right now is somewhat boring despite the exciting games because the overall quality has gone downwards. Partly because we lost too many quality managers (Heynckes, Klopp, Guardiola, Tuchel were/are all significantly better than any manager in the league right now with maybe Nagelsmann the exception, but that's in the future). But also because of too many clubs with huge potential failing to compete at a high enough standard to push Bayern and to a lesser degree Dortmund to make better decisions. Still, individual quality shines through and will succeed in other leagues, just like you'll always have one season wonders who make the move to a big club too soon and fail. All that happens in every league, just don't be lazy and judge them on goals and assists stats alone.
Very fair comment and post.

With United's demise, my desire to watch much football other than our own games and the CL, is low, on top of that, a busy life gives a lot less opportunities to watch footy devotedly, and it's only because of keeping tabs on Sancho and Havertz (in the faint hope we'll sign one of them) that I've got back into watching Bundesliga games, so I was a bit shocked at the difference in attacking ethos and the way teams are playing these days. From a United perspective, the first question to ask is: 'will he look as good for us as he does for them?' and after that, the amount of space and openings start to play on the mind a bit.

I guess once the numbers go beyond a certain point, the scrutiny has to intensify: is Sancho the next great one, (for example) or should what he's doing be weighted against the chaotic nature of the league currently? It's not only reserved for him, but at the moment, he has a ridiculously high profile off the back of said numbers so naturally, he is the first one to cross examine.

I think you're right in stating De Bruyne as an outlier - that was more like a force of nature exploding into life than a skillful footballer simply displaying an elevated level of ability.

I should add the caveat -- from my perspective at least -- that if these sides make a strong showing in Europe, the major body of my questioning will be redundant.
 

JPRouve

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That would be like calling Ligue Un, "League one" or La Liga, "The League", I think?

Google translate has made a mischief for you, btw, as that would be: What should I make the Bundesliga.

Die Bundesliga is its official name,?
For what it's worth it's not Ligue Un but Ligue 1.
 

FootballHQ

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I've always seen it a bit more open compared to England. Just had a look, in the the last 9 seasons there were more goals per game every season in the Bundesliga than there were in the PL.

Last season and this season have gone crazy, well over 3 goals per game and the Bundesliga is currently more of a goal bonanza than the famously open Eredivisie.

I see it as fun and wholesome, maybe a bit naive.
I agree with that. Mid table battles are far more entertaining than in the other three major leagues. Rather than either or both just coming for a point, it's all out attack.

Beyond Bayern and Dortmund there have been some fantastic club teams. I loved that Wolfsburg one a few years back with De Bruyne an assist machine and Bas Dost scoring hatfuls for six months. They had other good players around that time, made the CL and qualified for knock outs.

Every few years Leverkusen and Schalke come up with good teams that finish top 3.

I do wonder a little if decline of Hamburg, Stuttgart and now Bremen who could well go down this season has hurt the overall standard as these are big clubs who can push on and do well in european competition but it's all gone wrong at those three and also Wolfsburg who've needed relegation play offs to stay up in two of last three years.

Likes of Mainz, Freiburg and Ausburg do o.k but staying up is good season for all of them ultimately.

Frustration with likes of Dortmund and Leverkusen is they have fantastic attacks but they let in so many preventable goals. Can get away with it many weeks in Bundesliga but gets exposed in CL and europa.
 

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For what it's worth it's not Ligue Un but Ligue 1.
I'm not even going to ask! Even though I'm now confused and wondering what the difference is between a "1" and an un/une(?)

*see, feck, there's a question mark, dammit!
 

JPRouve

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I'm not even going to ask! Even though I'm now confused and wondering what the difference is between a "1" and an un/une(?)

*see, feck, there's a question mark, dammit!
Well it's a brand, you don't change the "1" into "un". Similarly you don't write Eighteen hundred and sixty Munich. It's not a big deal just a weird thing that I noticed on this board.
 

Fortitude

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Well it's a brand, you don't change the "1" into "un". Similarly you don't write Eighteen hundred and sixty Munich. It's not a big deal just a weird thing that I noticed on this board.
Aha. This I did not know. Still weird, because I've heard French commentators say "un" but as a non native, I wouldn't know the "1" was a standalone enigma.
 

JPRouve

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Aha. This I did not know. Still weird, because I've heard French commentators say "un" but as a non native, I wouldn't know the "1" was a standalone enigma.
As I said it's not a big deal, I only mentioned it since you use the L1 as an example. You sometimes see an english speaker who decides to write "un" but I'm yet to see anyone write "deux".