What to make of Die Bundesliga?

Fortitude

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As I said it's not a big deal, I only mentioned it since you use the L1 as an example. You sometimes see an english speaker who decides to write "un" but I'm yet to see anyone write "deux".
I guess it's not conveyed through text that I was smiling as I read what you wrote!

I never knew the "1" was part of a brand, tbh, so I have learned something new today!
 

luke511

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A lot of their games turn out to be very entertaining to watch.
 

Cardboard elk

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Bayern are playing RB Leipzig in a couple of hours and that game will probably be 5-4. At half time.

It’s fun to watch but it’s a joke of a league and plays like high-school football, with little tactical or defensive awareness at all. I love watching it though. I had a girl round the house yesterday who can barely stomach football at all, but even she stopped asking me to change the channel after about 10 minutes because ‘this game is exciting, sort of like basketball’.

Bayern vs Leipzig ended 0-0, you should have picked another game :D
 

paraguayo

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I said Ligue 1 is better than Bundesliga in some other forum and got slated. I stand by my opinion, the Bundesliga is like Europe's MLS. 6-4, 5-3, 4-3 scorelines
 

luke511

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I said Ligue 1 is better than Bundesliga in some other forum and got slated. I stand by my opinion, the Bundesliga is like Europe's MLS. 6-4, 5-3, 4-3 scorelines
Bundesliga is much better to watch and has a wider pool of talent. Turkey Super Lig is probably the closest thing to the MLS.
 

Mb194dc

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Hard to watch the Bundesliga, given I already watch a lot of the premier League and La Liga.

Time is part of that problem.

Have to say I've been to Frankfurt quite recently and watched some there in local bar. Was impressed with the local support, good beer and food, nice atmosphere.

The football culture between Germany and the UK is quite similar I think.
 

Okey

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I think its just English fans being insecure about any league not theirs. Almost like a teenage girl who needs to hear she is the best at everything. If any player does anything good in any league, they must find a way to discount it. Jovic is being slated for not delivering in Madrid when he barely play cos of Benz who is a Zidane favorite has the same number of goals as Hazard in the same team playing lesser games. Debruyne is about to win the top assist award for the 3rd time in EPL

For 1 Sancho who succeded there is a Recce oxford, Ademola Lookman or Ampadu whose career did not fare any better
This! I always find it mildy amusing when I hear English commentators of foreign games, and they're always on about how this player or that would fare in the Premier league. Not any other league, just the EPL. I almost never hear same being said of English players or even other players in England. Like it's assumed being in England is the ultimate for a player. Yet players come from Germany, and even France and rip it up here, and you'd struggle to find an English player thriving abroad. I think a healthier respect for other leagues would be a good idea...
 

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I'm German and while I follow it just as I follow all major leagues, I cannot really get into it. If there's Dortmund v Leverkusen and Palace v Burnley on, I'll watch the latter. It's hard to pinpoint exactly why. The poor defending is certainly part of it but I wouldn't blame it on that entirely.
Really? The Bundesliga, especially this season, is the most exciting to watch. I watched the replay of Paderborn vs Schalke last night while I was doing something else and Paderborn were having a go at Schalke and actually were the better team in the first half and did well to earn a draw in the second half. Apparently they are a small club even for Bundesliga 2 standards. I didn't set out to watch a lot of Bundesliga matches but I always find myself flipping back between matches especially if 2 bottom half PL sides are playing.

You're absolutely right about the defending. It is atrocious. Especially the fullback play. A lot of the Bundesliga fullbacks seem to either lack pace or tackling ability. It's probably the hardest league to judge a player from out of the big 4. Matches are just so open, you rarely see Mourinho style low blocks, and nearly every team presses. Also, backlines are noticeably less athletic than in the PL. With all that said most entertaining league this season hands down.
 

Oly Francis

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From my perspective and it seems like a pretty common opinion, I find the games very entertaining most of the time because of the full attack mentality but can't understand how defenses can be so bad. It's almost funny to see fullbacks so high on the pitch and disorganized, you almost want to ask them why in hell they'd do something like that. I mean Bayern (even if it's FAR from prime Boeteng/Hummels era), Leipzig and Monchenglabch have more than decent defenses but the rest is kinda bad.

In our Ligue 1, most of the teams want to keep their spot in the 1st division so bad that they have a very conservative style and it makes a lot of games boring. At least in Bundesliga, even small teams try to offer a bit of a show and thats something to praise but you'd think there's a balance to find.
 

Fortitude

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From my perspective and it seems like a pretty common opinion, I find the games very entertaining most of the time because of the full attack mentality but can't understand how defenses can be so bad. It's almost funny to see fullbacks so high on the pitch and disorganized, you almost want to ask them why in hell they'd do something like that. I mean Bayern (even if it's FAR from prime Boeteng/Hummels era), Leipzig and Monchenglabch have more than decent defenses but the rest is kinda bad.

In our Ligue 1, most of the teams want to keep their spot in the 1st division so bad that they have a very conservative style and it makes a lot of games boring. At least in Bundesliga, even small teams try to offer a bit of a show and thats something to praise but you'd think there's a balance to find.
It's an interesting intra-inter crux, the bolded, because the nature of Ligue 1 has made it a perfect buyers market for decades. Any staid, defence-minded league is a potential buyer haven and a league scouts can flock to and be more assured of their judgement because attackers thriving in stifling, dour games will love the open spaces in the bigger leagues (PL, La Liga), but are also already adept and familiar with cynicism and slower, constricting play (Serie A, of yore, at least).

One can also fairly argue Ligue 1 is more athletic and physical than all but the PL, so these players are battle-hardened and unflustered no matter where they go. Ligue 1 is the best and most consistent supplier of talent to other leagues because of the marrying of technique to physicality and cynicism.

Detraction - or at least misalignment - has befallen the league since PSG bought it, but it is farcical to consider it "Farmerish" when its exports are so consistently exceptional. Kanté rocking up from "nowhere" and taking the PL by storm is indicative of the gems to be found in that league and there's no doubt Rayan Cherki is the gem of European football in the under 18 bracket who will be further nurtured in said league before making a seamless transition to wherever it is he ends up going to. Further to that, Mbappé, out of Monaco's academy, was the predecessor to the same claim/crown Cherki now has.

The product you get from Ligue 1 is more the sure fire bet to succeed elsewhere than those from open, overly attacking leagues (Eredivise, Bundesliga) because there are fewer adjustments for those players to make and less shock in-game from a tactical or cynical standpoint. If your league became an attacking and open one, it would become a lot harder to judge talent from.
 
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paraguayo

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It's an interesting intra-inter crux, the bolded, because the nature of Ligue 1 has made it a perfect buyers market for decades. Any staid, defence-minded league is a potential buyer haven and a league scouts can flock to and be more assured of their judgement because attackers thriving in stifling, dour games will love the open spaces in the bigger leagues (PL, La Liga), but are also already adept and familiar with cynicism and slower, constricting play (Serie A, of yore, at least).

One can also fairly argue Ligue 1 is more athletic and physical than all but the PL, so these players are battle-hardened and unflustered no matter where they go. Ligue 1 is the best and most consistent supplier of talent to other leagues because of the marrying of technique to physicality and cynicism.

Detraction - or at least misalignment - has befallen the league since PSG bought it, but it is farcical to consider it "Farmerish" when its exports are so consistently exceptional. Kanté rocking up from "nowhere" and taking the PL by storm is indicative of the gems to be found in that league and there's no doubt Rayan Cherki is the gem of European football in the under 18 bracket who will be further nurtured in said league before making a seamless transition to wherever it is he ends up going to. Further to that, Mbappé, out of Monaco's academy, was the predecessor to the same claim/crown Cherki now has.

The product you get from Ligue 1 is more the sure fire bet to succeed elsewhere than those from open, overly attacking leagues (Eredivise, Bundesliga) because there are fewer adjustments for those players to make and less shock in-game from a tactical or cynical standpoint. If your league became an attacking and open one, it would become a lot harder to judge talent from.
That is true for attackers, but won't defenders be overrated because they have so much protection in a defensive league? It goes both ways
 

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Aha. This I did not know. Still weird, because I've heard French commentators say "un" but as a non native, I wouldn't know the "1" was a standalone enigma.
This is melting my brain: how else would they SAY it? They can't just make a number 1 appear out of their mouths!
 

Fortitude

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That is true for attackers, but won't defenders be overrated because they have so much protection in a defensive league? It goes both ways
Defensive organisation has been highly rated with regard to Ligue 1 for a long time (as far back as the 90's at least) and it has been easy to pick out star turns in that department for an age, not only for their ability along the line, but also in handling players 1-on-1. You get a good look at all facets of defensive play in Ligue 1 defenders, which, I think is where they allay doubts about potentially being exposed or out of their depth elsewhere.

The list of exceptional French defensive exports is extensive, and from the likes of Desailly, Thuram and Blanc going straight to an even more defensive league and becoming stars, to Gallas, Varane, Laporte going to attacking ones and doing the same, you get a real sense of how rounded these guys are.

The thing to note is the seamless nature in which they transition; it really is something special. I think Ligue 1 clubs now putting fairer valuations on their players instead of accepting derisory offers as they used to has changed the landscape somewhat as you'll not get their players for a relative pittance any longer unless you circumvent stepping stone clubs and move for the players who have yet to make a real name for themselves in the league. By the time a player is a star in France, he's good to go in any league, imo.
 

Fortitude

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This is melting my brain: how else would they SAY it? They can't just make a number 1 appear out of their mouths!
Haha, nevermind. It was a weird conversation from the get go with a little mischief thrown in on my side.

Typing Division "1" instead of "one" is, I think, interchangeable when talking about the old top division in England. Didn't think it'd be any different for France, tbh.
 

hasanejaz88

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A lot of overreacting going on. The BL is currently third in this seasons UEFA coefficient and also third in the overall coefficients ahead of Serie A. Yet, I've never heard anyone talk of the Serie A as being a crap league that is worst than the Ligue 1.

Sure, the BL is behind La Liga and EPL but it's still in the top 4 leagues in Europe and certainly a top league. Any talk of other than that, without also speculation of the Serie A being poor, is ridiculous.
 

Siorac

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A lot of overreacting going on. The BL is currently third in this seasons UEFA coefficient and also third in the overall coefficients ahead of Serie A. Yet, I've never heard anyone talk of the Serie A as being a crap league that is worst than the Ligue 1.

Sure, the BL is behind La Liga and EPL but it's still in the top 4 leagues in Europe and certainly a top league. Any talk of other than that, without also speculation of the Serie A being poor, is ridiculous.
You probably just don't notice it when it's happening, on account of being German. The Serie A is disparaged all the time on the Caf.

(I don't really like the Serie A but nowadays I try to stay away from the penis measuring contests between leagues).
 

hasanejaz88

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You probably just don't notice it when it's happening, on account of being German. The Serie A is disparaged all the time on the Caf.

(I don't really like the Serie A but nowadays I try to stay away from the penis measuring contests between leagues).
Hmm true I don't really follow the Serie A thread. And I'm actually a Pakistani-Canadian who has been supporting Germany since 1996 and has only moved to Munich 5 months ago :D
 

Fortitude

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A lot of overreacting going on. The BL is currently third in this seasons UEFA coefficient and also third in the overall coefficients ahead of Serie A. Yet, I've never heard anyone talk of the Serie A as being a crap league that is worst than the Ligue 1.

Sure, the BL is behind La Liga and EPL but it's still in the top 4 leagues in Europe and certainly a top league. Any talk of other than that, without also speculation of the Serie A being poor, is ridiculous.
Ultimately, the next few weeks/months will determine how effective this iteration of the BL is. If the games are tight, win or lose, there will be more merit to what we're seeing in the league at the moment. If, however, the teams look like they are out of their depth, it is going to compound the doubts.

A strong league will have multiple success stories and reflections of that strength, so there needs to be more than Bayern Munich doing well in Europe.

Serie A is heavily judged on its showings in Europe here, I feel (all leagues are when it comes down to it) so there isn't a particular scrutiny being piled down on German football other than wondering how all that haphazard stuff will translate, or whether it even does.
 

do.ob

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This is all down to Haaland. People started watching highlights of Dortmund putting relegation fodder to the sword and now they think they have the whole picture.
 

Oly Francis

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Detraction - or at least misalignment - has befallen the league since PSG bought it, but it is farcical to consider it "Farmerish" when its exports are so consistently exceptional. Kanté rocking up from "nowhere" and taking the PL by storm is indicative of the gems to be found in that league and there's no doubt Rayan Cherki is the gem of European football in the under 18 bracket who will be further nurtured in said league before making a seamless transition to wherever it is he ends up going to. Further to that, Mbappé, out of Monaco's academy, was the predecessor to the same claim/crown Cherki now has.
I wouldn't get that pumped up about Cherki who had 1 and a half good game and look totally lost against PSG last week. He sure seems like a great potential but it's still very early.
Camavinga seems like another huge talent.
 

Fortitude

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I wouldn't get that pumped up about Cherki who had 1 and a half good game and look totally lost against PSG last week. He sure seems like a great potential but it's still very early.
Camavinga seems like another huge talent.
The output of top of the line talent from there makes me believe he's the next special one.

Camavinga I don't mention as in my mind he's already off to Real in the summer, or, at least, not coming to United. But he looks like he's destined for great things, too.

The French production line of talent is phenomenal.
 
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I love it. My favourite league in world football to watch. It's so refreshing, every team tries to play. I'm used to England where 15 teams out of 20 park the bus and look for the counter every game, so seeing bottom sides trying to pass it about and using a high line in Germany is so fun.
 

Oly Francis

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The output of top of the line talent from there makes me believe he's the next special one.

Camavinga I don't mention as in my mind he's already off to Real in the summer, or, at least, not coming to United. But he looks like he's destined for great things, too.

The French production line of talent is phenomenal.
Yeah, lots of potential. Kouassi and Aouchiche for PSG could also be pretty big prospects.
 

FootballHQ

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This is all down to Haaland. People started watching highlights of Dortmund putting relegation fodder to the sword and now they think they have the whole picture.
Surely the lack of defensive structure frustrates you as a fan. Seems to have been like that at Dortmund for years which has stopped them fulfilling their potential in the post Klopp era.
 

do.ob

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Surely the lack of defensive structure frustrates you as a fan. Seems to have been like that at Dortmund for years which has stopped them fulfilling their potential in the post Klopp era.
There is no denying that Dortmund have been defensively suspect for years. But this thread isn't about them, is it?
 

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This is all down to Haaland. People started watching highlights of Dortmund putting relegation fodder to the sword and now they think they have the whole picture.
Exactly.

United misses out on Haaland, Haaland scores for Dortmund against open defenses => It's so easy to score in the Bundesliga

United buys Kagawa and Mkhitaryan, both fail => Don't buy Dortmund players, they only work there.

Evidence to the contrary is usually ignores.
 

Raees

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Interesting debate.. All I know is in recent years I am finding it very hard to watch La Liga with the same level of intensity yet I do seem to enjoy the odd game of Bundesliga which I would never have done outside Bayern v Dortmund. I find the range of exciting teams is greater now and the talent is more spread out.. is it a naive league and as elite as it once was? no.. but some of the talent coming through I do think is of a higher level than what the OP has implied.