What to make of Die Bundesliga?

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
8,189
Location
Germany
German football fans are by far the most precious ones on this forum. It's ridiculous how much in fact.
Yes. We are so insecure we do tend to create threads to denigrate other leagues, we create threads to proclaim how "strong" or "competitive" our league is, even when it's tanking in the UEFA rankings and we are so insecure that every other thread contains "that would never work in Bundesliga, they'd get stuffed" or "I wonder if he could do it on a rainy night in Mainz".
 

Lyricist

Full Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2012
Messages
3,173
Location
the booth
Yes. We are so insecure we do tend to create threads to denigrate other leagues, we create threads to proclaim how "strong" or "competitive" our league is, even when it's tanking in the UEFA rankings and we are so insecure that every other thread contains "that would never work in Bundesliga, they'd get stuffed" or "I wonder if he could do it on a rainy night in Mainz".
:lol::lol::lol:

Too bad German don’t know sarcasm.
So I guess this post reflects your honest thoughts then.
 

passing-wind

Full Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
1,887
The Bundesliga is a good league in my opinion. I think the league is perceived to be poor due to how open games are but that's the highlight of teams with an attacking mentality. There's certainly no issues in the transition from Germany to English football, some of the best players in our league have come from German clubs.
 

1905

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Messages
41
Think a lot of people are missing the point of the thread. It isn't to bash the league but ask the question of how some players will translate to other leagues with differing styles. Like some others have said, the thing that stands out the most is the space attacking players get in the Bundesliga, especially on the half turn in the final third. With more emphasis on pressing defenders are often left isolated 3v3/4v4 on quick transitions. This occurs far more in the Bundesliga than other leagues from what I've seen.

I've seen a lot of Utd/Chelsea fans thinking Sancho will come in and instantly be the lord and saviour, putting up the insane statistics that he currently has. These people need to calm down a bit and realise that he'll be coming into a different environment where 80% of the teams Utd/Chelsea face won't move from their defensive third. Even when losing by the odd goal some teams will only come out in the final 10 minutes. It's completely valid to question how these players will adapt, especially ones that are considered to be world class £100m+ players.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fortitude

Tonicruise

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 28, 2015
Messages
27
Location
Sweden
Supports
FC Bayern
It's not the best league in the world obviously but its top 3 after La liga an PL i think. More so i find it a very intresting and exciting league to watch, there is rarely a booring game when i catch up on a match always something happening. So for entertainment value it's great.

The quality of the top teams are significantly lower than PL baring Bayern of course. Dortmund and Leipzig are the Tottenham of the league they are trying to compete but just a level below the mighty Bavarians.
 

kaiser1

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Messages
478
Supports
Bayern Munich
After the recent CL results of Leipzig Dortmund and Bayern. What should we make of it?
 

horsechoker

Sailor vee, this is a right off.
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
16,293
Location
The stable
After the recent CL results of Leipzig Dortmund and Bayern. What should we make of it?
Not much, Chelsea aren't strong and Spurs could still progress. A season ago Bayern were easily knocked out by Liverpool and I'm not sure Bayern could prevent the same thing happening again.
 

troylocker

Full Member
Joined
May 2, 2019
Messages
345
Some results to add some muscle to the reputation of the Bundesliga:

CL - Round of 16
BVB - PSG 2-1
Chelsea - Bayern 0-3
Spurs - Leipzig 0-1

EL - Round of 32
Frankfurt - Salzburg 4-1
Wolfsburg - Malmo 2-1
Leverkusen - Porto 2-1

The only nation with 100% winrate in the first knock out stages in European competitions so far.
England: CL 3L so far, EL 2W, 1D
Spain: CL: 1W, 1D, 1L so far, EL: 1W, 1D, 1L
Italy: CL: 1W, 1D so far, EL: 2W
France: CL: 1L so far, EL: No teams left

Fair to say that the Bundesliga-teams represented in Europe does well enough. They have done a great job promoting attacking football and playing young talent.
 

kaiser1

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Messages
478
Supports
Bayern Munich
The ease with which Chelsea and Spurs were picked apart
Paderborn gave Bayern a tougher time than Chelsea did
Not much, Chelsea aren't strong and Spurs could still progress. A season ago Bayern were easily knocked out by Liverpool and I'm not sure Bayern could prevent the same thing happening again.
The last 3 Bayern visits to London have all ended in heavy defeats 5-1, 7-2 and 3-0. 15-3 aggregates
 

SilentStrike

Full Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
328
Location
Netherlands
Supports
Feyenoord
It's quite insane how some of my fellow PL fans look down on every other league as if they're amateurs. Bundesliga teams have consistently performed better in Europe than English teams for most of the last decade, and when that isn't the case for the first time (last season), we have the arrogance to call them a farmer's league.

If seems only Germany is getting this treatment too, some posters on here even saying the Bundesliga is worse than the French league.

Then point to players like Mkhitaryan (who was a flop for 2 years in Dortmund), Kagawa, Dembele (always injured), and a few others, but conveniently omitting De Bruyne, Firmino, Sané, and many others.

IMO the Bundesliga is truly growing on me. The football is always entertaining, no whining like in the Spanish league, full stadiums, affordable tickets, and the competition in the lower half of the table is as close as it is in England. Also it's the closest league to England in terms of physical play.
 

kaiser1

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Messages
478
Supports
Bayern Munich
Leipzig 4 Spurs 0
Chelsea 0 Bayern 3

7-0 aggregates

what do we make of Die Bundesliga
 

GazTheLegend

Full Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2014
Messages
1,623
Leipzig 4 Spurs 0
Chelsea 0 Bayern 3

7-0 aggregates

what do we make of Die Bundesliga
Less than we make of Spurs to be honest

It's getting better, but there's no denying it's not been great the last few years. Be honest, do you notice a huge leap in quality in the Bundesliga this year? Is it in part due to CORPORATIONS finally getting their disgusting claws into your clubs E.G. Leipzig, whom you of all people should not be pleased about progressing.
 

Lyricist

Full Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2012
Messages
3,173
Location
the booth
The drop of between the best and the rest is pretty stark. Teams turn up to play Bayern and Dortmund with no expectations. A lot of mediocrity that thrives in the bundesliga looks pretty ordinary in other leagues - Okazaki for instance.

Part of the perception is also the way the league is presented on TV. Disgraceful 1980s logo, atrocious camera work and they have crap commentators who speak with weird factory processed enthusiasm. If you were a kid getting into the sport you would never guess that Germany (or France or Italy) have the most glorious footballing history based on how the leagues market themselves.
What a weird example. He was never outstanding in the Bundesliga to begin with.
 

Lyricist

Full Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2012
Messages
3,173
Location
the booth
Fine. Kagawa, Diego.. take your pick
PL proven youth prospect Ademola Lookman can't even get minutes for Leipzig. I thus conclude the PL is bad, and that the drop of quality between the top and bottom teams is pretty drastic.

Oh, also Kagawa was stinking it up in Germany, too, after he came back from the PL.
Diego? How far back are we going with this? Do 90s count, because I remember some players from back then. All I remember from Diego is his CL goal against Barca in one of those great Atletico seasons. But yeah, Diego as BL star, that's a while ago. Must've been around the time Dortmund were still bankrupt.
 

FootballHQ

Full Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
11,302
Supports
Aston Villa
The drop of between the best and the rest is pretty stark. Teams turn up to play Bayern and Dortmund with no expectations. A lot of mediocrity that thrives in the bundesliga looks pretty ordinary in other leagues - Okazaki for instance.

Part of the perception is also the way the league is presented on TV. Disgraceful 1980s logo, atrocious camera work and they have crap commentators who speak with weird factory processed enthusiasm. If you were a kid getting into the sport you would never guess that Germany (or France or Italy) have the most glorious footballing history based on how the leagues market themselves.
That's incorrect. Dortmund's chaotic backline always gives you a chance. Likes of Paderborn, Union Berlin and Augsburg have scored three goals past them this season

Leipzig have a better defensive structure than Dortmund, they just lack experience at the top level although getting better in CL now.

Edit: Just seen your comment about the camera angles in their games. There is no way it's worse than La Liga where many games seem to be filmed from the nearest tower block to the ground. :lol:
 

kaiser1

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Messages
478
Supports
Bayern Munich
The drop of between the best and the rest is pretty stark. Teams turn up to play Bayern and Dortmund with no expectations. A lot of mediocrity that thrives in the bundesliga looks pretty ordinary in other leagues - Okazaki for instance.

Part of the perception is also the way the league is presented on TV. Disgraceful 1980s logo, atrocious camera work and they have crap commentators who speak with weird factory processed enthusiasm. If you were a kid getting into the sport you would never guess that Germany (or France or Italy) have the most glorious footballing history based on how the leagues market themselves.
Bayern and Dortmund have both lost 4 games each in the league. Mediocrity like Firmino that everyone raves about or Matip who was a cast away from Schalke
 

FootballHQ

Full Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
11,302
Supports
Aston Villa
There are examples in every league of players who are brilliant and flop elsewhere or vice vera.

Haller and Jovic were brilliant last season, less so in England and Spain this season so I find it a narrow prism to judge unless it's a mediocre striker who goes to say Holland or MLS and scores 40 a season.
 

Righteous Steps

Full Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
858
PL proven youth prospect Ademola Lookman can't even get minutes for Leipzig. I thus conclude the PL is bad, and that the drop of quality between the top and bottom teams is pretty drastic.

Oh, also Kagawa was stinking it up in Germany, too, after he came back from the PL.
Diego? How far back are we going with this? Do 90s count, because I remember some players from back then. All I remember from Diego is his CL goal against Barca in one of those great Atletico seasons. But yeah, Diego as BL star, that's a while ago. Must've been around the time Dortmund were still bankrupt.
To be fair Lookman failed to get games at Everton too, it was actually lezipeig where he looked like he could rekindle some form in his first loan spell.
 

Lyricist

Full Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2012
Messages
3,173
Location
the booth
There are examples in every league of players who are brilliant and flop elsewhere or vice vera.

Haller and Jovic were brilliant last season, less so in England and Spain this season so I find it a narrow prism to judge unless it's a mediocre striker who goes to say Holland or MLS and scores 40 a season.
In the end football is a team sport and it's to a big part based on how teams set up.

Haller, Jovic, and Rebic are all struggling, yet made the defenses of Lazio, Shakhtar, Inter, Marseille, Benfica, and Chelsea look weak in last year's EL. That's testament to Frankfurt having had a very good setup with clinical strikers up front, who now are struggling to make it in different environments with different tactical setups.
 

Lyricist

Full Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2012
Messages
3,173
Location
the booth
To be fair Lookman failed to get games at Everton too, it was actually lezipeig where he looked like he could rekindle some form in his first loan spell.
Exactly. Just like Okazaki can not be used to measure the quality of present day Bundesliga when he was never even a star player in the Bundesliga in the first place. In fact I still find it crazy that he won a PL medal in his first PL season.
The poster mentioning Kagawa and Diego is just silly, their Bundesliga star shone 8 and 14 years ago. That's 1 to 2 generations in football terms. That's why I used Lookman as comparison, as I wanted to point out the absurdity of the points the poster was trying to make.

It's Leipzig and not Lezipeig by the way.
 

izec

Full Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2013
Messages
22,491
Location
Lucilinburhuc
They are stronger than the English teams this season. In fact, i would be surprised if the CL winner doesn't come from Germany.
 

Classical Mechanic

Full Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
28,995
Location
xG Zombie Nation
Firmino's stats were better in the BL than the PL, specifically when it comes to dribbling, completing about twice as many, he was making about as many successful dribbles per game as the very best in Europe do. His highest G+A season was in the BL too. He made whoscored's BL team of the year in the two seasons before joining Liverpool.

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/96182/History/Roberto-Firmino
 

Inigo Montoya

Leave Wayne Rooney alone!!
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
28,361
Firmino was not one of the Bundesliga stars, the stars that moved were KdB Kroos Auba. Miki had 1 good season in 3yrs that was an outlier
Stating that he was 'mediocrity' and not one of the 'stars' are totally different descriptions.

He was good enough for a lot on here to suggest that he could do a job for us. He's done a good job at Liverpool
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
44,250
Location
France
Stating that he was 'mediocrity' and not one of the 'stars' are totally different descriptions.

He was good enough for a lot on here to suggest that he could do a job for us. He's done a good job at Liverpool
He was a quality player for Hoffenheim and definitely not mediocre. Now it's also true that he wasn't a star in the league, he didn't had a higher profile than Volland and someone like Son Heung Min turned more heads when he was at Hamburg than Firmino did. You are also right about the idea that he was seen as a young player with upsides, he was seen as someone that could step up in a bigger club.
 

danamann

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 11, 2012
Messages
48
Location
Werder
It's hard to believe how much Bundesliga has improved compared to last season. I was expecting several more years of awful football with yet another easy championship for Bayern. Just goes to show how quickly things can change in football. It is very difficult to beat Bayern, especially over the course of a season. You need to have quality and, above all, consistency. It's a pleasant surprise that many teams show these qualities this season. Bayer Leverkusen, who sit 5th in the table, beat Porto home and away comfortably - no easy feat by any means. Frankfurt and Wolfsburg also qualified for the next round of the Europa League.

This season the top 6-8 in the Bundesliga is stronger than the Premier League, quality and performance-wise. You can argue about the rest of the teams in the league but you have to admit there is utter dross in both of them. Teams like Bournemouth, Norwich, Watford et al. are at best marginally better than teams like Paderborn, Düsseldorf and sadly also Bremen. Comparing the vast difference in available resources, the Premier League should improve over time, but then again, I've been thinking that for many years and it hasn't happened.
 

MikeMango

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
129
Location
Potsdam
what a wierd thread.

No, the Bundesliga is not a farmers league. It was bad last year but this year the quality is pretty high and it shows on the international level. The 5 top Teams in the league perform on a good level (a least for the majority of games).
And you cant argue that the league is bad in defense when the bundesliga clubs score a lot of goals in Champions league and europa league as well, while they still dont concede to much.

Yes, the PL is generally stronger. Just not this season, with many top clubs in crisis.
 

GazTheLegend

Full Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2014
Messages
1,623
I find myself in a weird position in that I want to love German football and generally everything about it is positive - their fans have a case for being the best in the world, they have some of the best stadiums and ownerships are fan run - beers at the games and I admire everything about it. Bayern and Dortmund are fantastic to watch sometimes. And there are some brilliant players even at the average teams

But whenever I watch the Bundesliga it feels like something is missing. The games are a bit more square, there is less enthusiasm from the promotion somehow

I wonder if its the seeming lack of rivalry in the league

Like we've got Liverpool and City and Leeds games and they are always filled with such an edge no matter where the teams have been in the league table

Are there any such games and rivalries in the Bundesliga? I've got BTsport and actually intend to catch up a bit maybe, if there's anything coming up after this corona stuff blows over (assuming society doesn't collapse utterly)
 

SilentStrike

Full Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
328
Location
Netherlands
Supports
Feyenoord
I find myself in a weird position in that I want to love German football and generally everything about it is positive - their fans have a case for being the best in the world, they have some of the best stadiums and ownerships are fan run - beers at the games and I admire everything about it. Bayern and Dortmund are fantastic to watch sometimes. And there are some brilliant players even at the average teams

But whenever I watch the Bundesliga it feels like something is missing. The games are a bit more square, there is less enthusiasm from the promotion somehow

I wonder if its the seeming lack of rivalry in the league

Like we've got Liverpool and City and Leeds games and they are always filled with such an edge no matter where the teams have been in the league table

Are there any such games and rivalries in the Bundesliga? I've got BTsport and actually intend to catch up a bit maybe, if there's anything coming up after this corona stuff blows over (assuming society doesn't collapse utterly)
Bvb - Schalke this weekend should be a game for you then.

It's called the Kohlenpottderby because of how heated the fanbases are. But I think it's played without fans so it might be the wrong time to watch it.
 

GazTheLegend

Full Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2014
Messages
1,623
Bvb - Schalke this weekend should be a game for you then.

It's called the Kohlenpottderby because of how heated the fanbases are. But I think it's played without fans so it might be the wrong time to watch it.
Ah thats a right shame. I'll have a watch anyway if and a big if it's on
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
8,189
Location
Germany
Bvb - Schalke this weekend should be a game for you then.

It's called the Kohlenpottderby because of how heated the fanbases are. But I think it's played without fans so it might be the wrong time to watch it.
It has been confirmed there will be no fans at the game and it's named "(Ruhr)pott"derby, because that's what the Ruhr area where both clubs hail from is informally called, as most of Germany's coal and steel industry used to be centered there.

Bundesliga teams have their rivalries with neighboring teams and some historic/contemporary competitive rivalries, same as any team in the world I guess. But generally speaking how would someone be aware of them if the doesn't really follow the league? Some guy who casually watches a couple of PL matches a month probably won't be aware of the United vs Leeds rivalry either.
 
Last edited:

C'mon FC

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 7, 2018
Messages
146
Supports
1. FC Köln
Pretty easy. Best league is where 1.FC Koeln plays in. Currently Bundesliga best league. Period!
 

GhastlyHun

Full Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
9,699
Location
Bavaria
Supports
Bayern München
I find myself in a weird position in that I want to love German football and generally everything about it is positive - their fans have a case for being the best in the world, they have some of the best stadiums and ownerships are fan run - beers at the games and I admire everything about it. Bayern and Dortmund are fantastic to watch sometimes. And there are some brilliant players even at the average teams

But whenever I watch the Bundesliga it feels like something is missing. The games are a bit more square, there is less enthusiasm from the promotion somehow

I wonder if its the seeming lack of rivalry in the league

Like we've got Liverpool and City and Leeds games and they are always filled with such an edge no matter where the teams have been in the league table

Are there any such games and rivalries in the Bundesliga? I've got BTsport and actually intend to catch up a bit maybe, if there's anything coming up after this corona stuff blows over (assuming society doesn't collapse utterly)
I'd say you find the big rivalries (apart from Schalke-Dortmund) in the lower leagues nowadays. Fürth-Nürnberg for example. Their fans can make Liverpool and United supporters seem like friends.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
8,189
Location
Germany
I'd say you find the big rivalries (apart from Schalke-Dortmund) in the lower leagues nowadays. Fürth-Nürnberg for example. Their fans can make Liverpool and United supporters seem like friends.
Gladbach vs Cologne is a pretty big rivalry I think?! Ironically perhaps even Dortmund vs Hoffenheim could be mentioned by now :lol: