What would be the most worthy ‘double’ ?

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

So you are going about what is more memorable now?

You didn't answer the question.

Sorry what was the question @roonster09?

I thought we were discussing what is "worth more" and I've answered that emphatically, even 50 years ago in 1968 our European Cup win was worth much more than Man City winning the league that same season. Nothing has changed in that regard, the Champions League is the biggest trophy in club football.

 

[Varun]

Only one club can be the European champion whereas every country has a league winner.

 

[adexkola]

Seriously?
You think blocking teams such as Real Madrid, Manchester United, Manchester City & PSG and replace them with the champions of Albania, Latvia and The Faroe Islands somehow makes the Champions League better, more competitive and valid?

Yeah.

I'd keep the current format of having champions in lower ranked leagues slog through the qualifying rounds. Automatic group stage qualification for the top 16 ranked champions. Let the other champions duke it out with the 2nd placed teams from the top 16 for the last 16 spots. Everyone else can feck off to the Europa League.

Initial dip in quality would reverse due to the increased flow of revenue to smaller leagues in Europe. Their teams get better. Able to keep talent better. Invest more in youth development. And this sense of entitlement due to a top 4 finish gets binned once and for all.

Meh. One can dream.

 

[adexkola]

That's a bit of nonsense considering that City has much more chance to win UCL than us to do so.

Only United fans claim to like a league win over an UCL league. An inferiority complex - considering that our greatest rival has more European trophies than us - same as 'the biggest club in the world' bullshit. In the eyes of absolute majority of fans, players and coaches, the league and UCL aren't even in the same level.

Fergie who used to say that he likes league more yadda yadda, the moment he started cracking UCL, he was playing weaker teams in the league (even if they were title deciding clashes) in order to prepare the team better for UCL.

Eh? If this thread was reversed and we were 15 points ahead in the league, how many would trade that for a CL title? You think that would be a popular decision? Would it feck.

Has nothing to do with me being a United fan. I weigh the league title over the CL title. Full stop. The CL has the music and the frills and all that nice jazz, however it's too variable to be a primary barometer of quality to me.

I don't care about Liverpool having more CLs than us. They started saying 5 with more fervor once we overtook them in the league competition. Lord knows they're dying to get another one. I wish them a million more Cryatanbuls.

 

[roonster09]

For me it's near impossible to call any team that don't win their domestic league but win CL as the best in Europe. It's like Liverpool 2005 or Chelsea 2012 or 13, how can they be best in Europe when they are not even the best in their domestic league, in these 2 cases they were not even in top 4.
.

Really @roonster09 ? So when you think back to Real's 2002 win and that Zidane goal, you also think "well yeah, that's nice but Valencia were better than them that season."?

Why not, over the 38 league games Valencia proved to be better than Madrid.

So you thought Chelsea and Liverpool were the best in Europe when they won CL or Liverpool were second best in 2007 when ManUtd were so good winning league playing great football?

Bullshit, you, like everyone else have almost certainly forgotten that Valencia won the league that year, just like you forget Juve won Serie A the following season when Pirlo, Seedorf and co. were lifting the Champions League. That Zidane goal gets replayed again and again whereas Valencia's league win is long forgotten by 99% of neutral fans.

So you are going about what is more memorable now?

You didn't answer the question.

I think I made it very easy for you now.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I think I made it very easy for you now.

Bizarre post. We're talking about what is more "worthy" so unless you have a pre-defined definition of "worthy" then we surely have to make our own conclusions as to what that entales do we not?

As I say, what was worth more in your opinion? I mean, according to the @roonster09 definition of "worthy" is that no team can claim to be best in Europe if they didn't win their league that same season so...

Manchester City's Division 1 league win in 1968
Manchester United's European Cup win in 1968

Follow up question: Without googling, name 3 players from both sides.

 

[Sarni]

Champions League is better than Premier League trophy (debatable but IMO winning CL puts you in history books way more than winning the league, which is the reason why people will remember 1999 and 2008 as our best seasons), FA Cup is superior to League Cup (not even debatable).

 

[Kapardin]

I'd value the CL and FA Cup more simply because the CL is a special trophy that is more difficult to win than the league title. Don't get me wrong, I would prefer the PL on most occasions, but if you look at it this way - next season, Real and Bayern will strengthen, PSG could get better with a new manager, making the CL far more difficult to win. In contrast, City are not likely to repeat their near-invincibles act next season and I think the PL trophy will be up for grabs as we strengthen as well.

Assuming we are in a position to luck our way to the CL through the back-door, I'd take it over the PL for now. Then I would prefer winning the PL many times with the occasional CL win every 3-5 years if we can't win it regularly like Real. Dream scenarios and all that.

 

[roonster09]

Bizarre post.

As I say, what was worth more in your opinion?

Manchester City's Division 1 league win in 1968
Manchester United European Cup win in 1968

Obviously CL is worth more, my very first post was about being best in Europe.

For me it's near impossible to call any team that don't win their domestic league but win CL as the best in Europe. It's like Liverpool 2005 or Chelsea 2012 or 13, how can they be best in Europe when they are not even the best in their domestic league, in these 2 cases they were not even in top 4.

But considering our position I don't give a shit about being called as best in Europe if we fluke CL. Would love to see our team lift the big cup again, it's been 10 years since we won our last one.

You should read entire post before just cutting some part and coming with laughable replies.

Now go on and answer the question, were Liveprool second best in Europe and better than Manutd when we won league in 2006-07?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Obviously CL is worth more

Exactly, and that's what this thread is asking, my responses in this thread are always related to the question in the thread title and quite simply a CL win is always worth more than a league win, there is no doubt about that at all.

 

[roonster09]

Exactly, and that's what this thread is asking.

*facepalm*

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Were Liveprool second best in Europe and better than Manutd when we won league in 2006-07?

That's the thing mate, no-one cares. Not one neutral, not on Liverpool fan.

 

[Sarni]

I love how people pretend that you can fluke CL win but "whoever wins the league over 38 games are the best team".

You play at least 13 games against some of the best teams in Europe on your way to Champions League triumph. The last 5 are usually played against the best of the best, bar some odd occurences like Wolfsburg/Fenerbahce making it to the quarterfinal. Huge consistency is needed to even reach semifinal, let alone win the entire competition.

Also, quite often the margin of title win is less than 5 points. There are so many little factors (injuries, referee mistakes etc.) that are purely down to luck which could drive a tight victory like this that it's very hard to say unequivocally that the winning team is the best team. Obviously when champions run away like City, Bayern and Barcelona are going to this year there is no debate but this is not always the case.

 

[roonster09]

That's the thing mate, no-one cares. Not one neutral, not on Liverpool fan.

Really @roonster09 ? So when you think back to Real's 2002 win and that Zidane goal, you also think "well yeah, that's nice but Valencia were better than them that season."?

Then what is this about? Do you even read what you post? or to what post you reply to.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Then what is this about? Do you even read what you post? or to what post you reply to.

You're all over the shop pal, I'm honestly lost in your posts and have no clue what your point is any longer.

In fairness, you fecking quoted yourself, with an extra paragraph that was added after my original reply... no wonder I'm confused

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I love how people pretend that you can fluke CL win but "whoever wins the league over 38 games are the best team".

You play at least 13 games against some of the best teams in Europe on your way to Champions League triumph. The last 5 are usually played against the best of the best, bar some odd occurences like Wolfsburg/Fenerbahce making it to the quarterfinal. Huge consistency is needed to even reach semifinal, let alone win the entire competition.

Also, quite often the margin of title win is less than 5 points. There are so many little factors (injuries, referee mistakes etc.) that are purely down to luck which could drive a tight victory like this that it's very hard to say unequivocally that the winning team is the best team. Obviously when champions run away like City, Bayern and Barcelona are going to this year there is no debate but this is not always the case.

In what year did you think the title winner was not the best team?

 

[roonster09]

You're all over the shop pal, I'm honestly lost in your posts and have no clue what your point is any longer.

In fairness, you fecking quoted yourself, with an extra paragraph that was added after my original reply... no wonder I'm confused

Yeah that answers that. Quote someone post without reading that they post and talk nonsense.

I have made it very clear in my very first post that I'm talking about calling CL winners as best team in Europe when they don't win their domestic league and you quote and keep on adding more nonsense in every post.

Not arsed to repost again.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/what-would-be-the-most-worthy-‘double’.436731/page-4#post-22191517

Re bold part, that much is obvious. More like no clue rather than confused.

 

[nah_it_wont_happen]

I can't believe people even bother to question which one is the most worthy double and doubts the credibility of UCL. UCL is the most prestigious trophy out there, all the biggest clubs, all the biggest champions, all the world's best players play there.

Real Madrid are Real Madrid for what they have done in Europe not for what they did in La Liga. If domestic titles mattered so much, Juventus would have been of similar stature as Real Madrid, but they are nowhere the Spanish giants. Players like Ronaldo adore Real Madrid for the 12 titles in Europe.

After UCL comes the domestic league in terms of prestige, although that is by some distance. So, obviously, UCL+Domestic League is without any shadow of doubts the most important double.

In terms of prestige I rate the trophies as the following (with 1 being highest rated and 10 the lowest):

UCL = 1
League = 3
Europa League = 8
Fa Cup = 9
League Cup = 10

 

[Sarni]

In what year did you think the title winner was not the best team?

Off the top of my head I think Liverpool were the best team in 2013-14 and we would have won the league in 2010 if it wasn't for Rooney's injury before Chelsea game and Drogba's offside goal (both teams were about equal).

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Re bold part, that much is obvious. More like no clue rather than confused.

Aye, when posters add stuff after already being quoted it tends to lead to confusion.

 

[roonster09]

Aye, when posters add stuff after already being quoted it tends to lead to confusion.

It gives the flow and context to the conversation, it's that simple.

 

[roonster09]

Off the top of my head I think Liverpool were the best team in 2013-14 and we would have won the league in 2010 if it wasn't for Rooney's injury before Chelsea game and Drogba's offside goal (both teams were about equal).

ManCity were better in 2013-14, they scored more, conceded less too. Won more games and lost 1 less game than Liverpool.

Maybe no one expected title challenge from Liverpool, so might think Liverpool were better.

 

[Cloud7]

That's a bit of nonsense considering that City has much more chance to win UCL than us to do so.

Only United fans claim to like a league win over an UCL league. An inferiority complex - considering that our greatest rival has more European trophies than us - same as 'the biggest club in the world' bullshit. In the eyes of absolute majority of fans, players and coaches, the league and UCL aren't even in the same level.

Fergie who used to say that he likes league more yadda yadda, the moment he started cracking UCL, he was playing weaker teams in the league (even if they were title deciding clashes) in order to prepare the team better for UCL.

I’ve felt this for a while now but have never voiced this opinion. This whole “you can’t call yourself the best team if you don’t win the league” almost seems like a defense mechanism to justify our relative(for a club of our stature) underperforming in Europe. “Yeah we didn’t win the CL but we won the league and that’s what’s most important”

In all the football fans I’ve interacted with in real life and online, this is the only place where a league title is viewed even anywhere close to a CL win, and where this view that “winning the CL without winning the league is hollow”. Everywhere else it’s viewed as what it is, the most prestigious trophy in club football.

 

[Sarni]

ManCity were better in 2013-14, they scored more, conceded less too. Won more games and lost 1 less game than Liverpool.

Maybe no one expected title challenge from Liverpool, so might think Liverpool were better.

Maybe, I have erased that season from my memory because Moyes. Both teams were excellent that season though and the margin of title win was ultimately Steven Gerrard slipping. This was unlucky for Liverpool and lucky for City, of course.

I don't really remember many cases where the team winning Champions League did not deserve it either. You can't really win either without working very hard for it yet people pretend winning the league by being luck is impossible while winning Champions League purely by luck is normal.

 

[roonster09]

Maybe, I have erased that season from my memory because Moyes. Both teams were excellent that season though and the margin of title win was ultimately Steven Gerrard slipping. This was unlucky for Liverpool and lucky for City, of course.

I don't really remember many cases where the team winning Champions League did not deserve it either.

Yeah agree with that. Same with 2009-10 and 2011-12, margin of error was so small.

Game against Everton which we drew 4-4 (in 2011-12), Evra hit the post when the game was 4-2, had we scored the game was done. Just after that they scored 2 goals in quick succession.

 

[harms]

Would definitely take CL over the league title, not that we're winning it.

 

[Sarni]

Yeah agree with that. Same with 2009-10 and 2011-12, margin of error was so small.

Game against Everton which we drew 4-4 (in 2011-12), Evra hit the post when the game was 4-2, had we scored the game was done. Just after that they scored 2 goals in quick succession.

Yeah, in both those seasons you can clearly point to a few swing points that were basically one off events that changed the course of the title race. A couple of moments over a 38-game season that defined who won the league. It's really difficult to say that luck played no part in this and whoever won it over 38 games deserved that no questions asked.

Of course the team winning it had to do their job to be able to capitalize on luck element in the first place, which was hard enough, but plenty of time a few seconds will decide who wins it in the end.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

F.A. Cup and Champions League.

 

[RedRom]

Would definitely take CL over the league title, not that we're winning it.

Why are we "not winning it"??

 

[harms]

Why are we "not winning it"??

We are far from being the favourites this year, let's put it this way. Of course there's always hope, but it's not a very realistic scenario

 

[Schmiznurf]

Excuse me?

Ok fine, I like your music, just don't tell anybody.

 

[charlenefan]

RedRom is basically the Man Utd fan equivalent of Ty

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Maybe, I have erased that season from my memory because Moyes. Both teams were excellent that season though and the margin of title win was ultimately Steven Gerrard slipping. This was unlucky for Liverpool and lucky for City, of course.

I don't really remember many cases where the team winning Champions League did not deserve it either. You can't really win either without working very hard for it yet people pretend winning the league by being luck is impossible while winning Champions League purely by luck is normal.

There is no way in hell Chelsea deserved it in 2012.

 

[Ikon]

Manchester City's Division 1 league win in 1968
Manchester United's European Cup win in 1968

How about history repeating itself 50 years on..!!!

 

[RedRom]

We are far from being the favourites this year, let's put it this way. Of course there's always hope, but it's not a very realistic scenario

I agree that we are not the favorites to do so, but to say definitely that we will not be winning it whilst we are still in the competition is going a step too far.

 

[Sarni]

There is no way in hell Chelsea deserved it in 2012.

They qualified from a tough group with Valencia and Leverkusen and knocked out Napoli (coming back from 3-1 down in the first leg), Barcelona (who were probably the strongest team in Europe back then and had Messi in amazing form) and beat Bayern in the final at their own ground while missing several key players. They deserved it.

 

[Raees]

Worthier.. arguably the PL and League cup, as CL is the knock-out competition but from a fan's perspective, which one would live longer in the memory? for me CL and FA cup without a shadow of a doubt. Think even City fans would agree as it is the CL they really really crave.

 

[Moby]

Ok fine, I like your music, just don't tell anybody.

I just wanted to know what particularly you were referring.

 

[Denis' cuff]

Not sure why that would make a difference, City won the league in 1968, we came second. Could happen again this year.

Think you’re losing sight of reality here. United qualified as champions in 67 and won the EC in 68 whilst challenging and in fact, leading the way for most of the season for the league. We became distracted once big ears came into view around April. This, in an era when only champions competed. Nobody is talking about who might win a domestic title whilst competing for the EC but we competed alright, and unlike 7th placed Chelsea, who also were able to rest players and coast the league, as opposed to an era when there was no such thing as a “squad”. Just a first team with maybe four reserves who could step in, in an emergency. Did Chelsea even qualify as champions? Just asking. Simply no comparison.

FWIW, give me the CL and FA cup rather than the title and LC. Largely because we have underachieved in the CL and have 20 titles and FA > LC. League more worthy but CL more glamour. It’s almost taken the place of the now diminished FA cup. A lot of young uns cannot grasp the prestige the FA used to have. Would normally prefer the league, though. Not that I think we will, anyway, but stranger things.....

 

[Schmiznurf]

I just wanted to know what particularly you were referring.

The music artist Moby, he's a strange guy but his music is calming.