What's wrong with our players?

[Number4.]

it appears to be one hell of a list - here's my thoughts, biggest problems 1st:

1) Utter contempt for each other. The Sanchez deal ripped the motivation out of so many. DDG, Pogba, Herrera, Rashford, lingard, Martial, Lukaku& a few others have to be looking at how this joke is getting so much cash. This impacts on the collective and their motivation to work for each other. Consider your own office / Building site etc & the impact some lazy pr*ck who got paid double everyone else would have on moral and team

2) Complacency - some believe the hype & think they are too good. The greats work their backsides off in the modern game, both in training and on the pitch. United players appear to think they are above this.

3) Fitness - The stats back this up, the team run less, sprint less then most of their contemporaries

4) A system - Liverpool, city (even Watford, Leicester) are drilled within an inch of their lives, there is collective understanding of what needs to be done in transition, defence and attack. United aren't drilled and rely on playing off the cuff. Teams need to be incredibly talented to do this.

5) Stats dont lie - XG shows United's problems are not recent. Scoring more goals than chances is great, but is rarely sustainable long term. Successful teams are creating large attacking XG numbers, rather than relying on outperforming it over a long period. DDG did the reverse at the other end last season, which obviously hasn't been replicated.

6) Rashford & Lingard aren't very good. Similar to 5; they both arrived with a bang, Jesse scored some wonder goals and rashford was converting chances at north of 50%; as they have settled into true form over a 2 year period, I think the grim reality is, they are just a bit average.

7) Players in decline - Matic, Young, Jones, Sanchez, Smalling, Valencia etc. No explainers needed.

8) Confidence - Eric Bailly destroyed, Tony Martial, Sanchez and so on.

 

[JPRouve]

Well, the chaos in your club simply extends to the pitch. It happens at all sorts of clubs. Hamburg are a great example, but obviously on a different level. They spent loads of money and had some quality in their squad. At least enough to easily remain in the Bundesliga. They still got relegated. When you have to play for a dysfunctional club, there is a certain pressure, a certain atmosphere of uncertainty, that eventually catches up with your players. In an environment where there is a lack of competence and structure, players tend to lose their confidence and start performing badly. If these patterns aren't broken apart, they will basically repeat themselves throughout every season. Playing for United right now is just incredibly difficult. Everything you have to do is harder there than at other clubs. While you will hate the comparision, if the same players would play for Liverpool right now, they'd perform much better. Simply because the atmosphere is better. Because it's more fun.
Right now, you lack competence, structure and any sort of coherent and somewhat intelligent squad management. On top of that, you're clueless when it comes to choosing and supporting coaches. Due to that, your work environment is now fecked up and players don't like playing for you, they do it solely, because of the money.
It's just not fun to be at United right now and everything comes much harder there. That's a serious issue and can only be solved, by changing the structure of the decision making process, the people in charge and by holding the owners accountable.

Exactly, the environment is everything in sports. People may think that simply getting a fat check is enough for players to be confident or motivated but it's wrong, everyone feeds from its surrounding and when you eat unhealthy things you are rarely in good shape.

 

[Nickthepip]

For the sake of argument. How would Sterling do in this team? He's the only City's attacker whom I don't rate at all despite doing so much for them.
Put Sterling in this team and he'd be as good as Rashford(in his bad form).

The lack of consistent game plan hurting everyone. Not saying player are faultless but I'm not fully convinced it's all their fault. We went from possession based football to defensive based football to Oleball, whatever that is, within few years yet they've always been clueless in the final third.

Utter rubbish. He'd be our best player by a mile.

 

[Leftback99]

They just aren't very good. Even the ones that are supposedly some of our better players are nothing special eg. Rashford, Shaw, they aren't even starters for England.

Is beating even a team like Cardiff really a given with (like we had on Sunday) Young, Dalot, Jones, McTominay, Pereira, Lingard and a 17 year old youth prospect? 7/11 players nowhere near good enough. It's a team we'd throw out in the league cup.

 

[fps]

Beyond a certain wage, I honestly think many footballers are just happy to take the money, feeling they've hit a permanent lottery of life. You need the players who have a genuine deepseated willingness to work and compete for its own sake, the ones who would frankly do it for free, because it's in their blood.

Thinking about that in terms of the players who are Man Utd and it becomes very clearly what's gone wrong.

A good mercenary? Carlos Tevez. He'd start a fight with himself in a bin if there was a football in it.

 

[K13]

Beyond a certain wage, I honestly think many footballers are just happy to take the money, feeling they've hit a permanent lottery of life. You need the players who have a genuine deepseated willingness to work and compete for its own sake, the ones who would frankly do it for free, because it's in their blood.

Thinking about that in terms of the players who are Man Utd and it becomes very clearly what's gone wrong.

A good mercenary? Carlos Tevez. He'd start a fight with himself in a bin if there was a football in it.

I am sure there are some players out there who do it just for the money and some like the former Spurs LB Assou Ekotto have actually been very honest and admitted it.

Pretty much every player has gone off the boil in the last few months so when that happens I think you have to take a look at the bigger picture.

Exactly, the environment is everything in sports. People may think that simply getting a fat check is enough for players to be confident or motivated but it's wrong, everyone feeds from its surrounding and when you eat unhealthy things you are rarely in good shape.

Exactly but I think you could also extend that to every day as well. I once worked in a wonderful company until the very successful CEO retired and it became totally chaotic. Work became a real chore.

 

[Cassidy]

The root of our problem is complacency. Its the reason why we're filled with players who are not good enough, why those who are good enough are not giving their 100% for us and why we keep attracting players whose career is shot. How can a player take the manager seriously with someone as useless as Jones can stay with the club for 8 long years and still get a 4+1 year contract?

We need more ruthlessness. No more players who can do the job, no more excuses, no more servants of the club, nothing of this sort. If someone can't produce the goods week in week out then he should be out.

This.

 

[SAF-GIGGSY]

All I know is if you look at our squad compared to all premier league wining squads in the past.....we have zero chance of coming even close to the league

 

[Bill Beaumont]

It's not just systems

Liverpool's players are better than ours in every position, and by some distance

 

[Tomuś]

I don't even think that having players like Young is the problem. Fergie would be happy to keep him too, but treat him as a fringe player who has his uses (obedience, character, versatility and experience). Would get 10-15 starts or so perhaps, the problem is the level of his is a template for our first-team players. That's where the standard dropped. Nothing wrong with having experienced, never complaining, relatively dependable guys on the fringes of your team. They should complement the superstars and not set the standards.

 

[Tomuś]

They just aren't very good. Even the ones that are supposedly some of our better players are nothing special eg. Rashford, Shaw, they aren't even starters for England.

Is beating even a team like Cardiff really a given with (like we had on Sunday) Young, Dalot, Jones, McTominay, Pereira, Lingard and a 17 year old youth prospect? 7/11 players nowhere near good enough. It's a team we'd throw out in the league cup.

Wouldn't overplay it, it's fecking Cardiff for God's sake!

 

[Jeppers7]

Doesnt matter what the system is when you dont try. Liverpool pressed the feck out the game, they didnt do it with silky moves or total football or any other bullshit buzz term. They just went at barca constantly. You stick our 11 into liverpool with that system they wont beat barca. Because they wont fight for the club or the fans the way those liverpool players do.

So you think if we stick those 11 players in our system we beat Barca 4-0 ?

 

[Jeppers7]

Liverpool were beaten 3-0 by Barcelona 2 weeks before. I've watched these players fail to do the basics so many time the last few years that has nothing got to do with the systems. We have a collection of weak minded individuals that don't really give a shit about anything but a paycheck.

What's Liverpool losing 3-0 got to do with anything ?

Really football isn't about systems getting the best out of players ?

Some people hate our players so much they refuse to see anything beyond it.

We don't have a system, any sort of game plan like Liverpool, City, Spurs or in fact every other club. Until we sort that out none of the players will consistently perform. Sort the system. Then sort out which players suit it.

A lot of the players you've watched fail to do the basics will not fail to do the basics somewhere else in a functioning system

 

[Reddy Rederson]

So you think if we stick those 11 players in our system we beat Barca 4-0 ?

You can go ahead and point to where I said that. Ill wait.

 

[Jeppers7]

You can go ahead and point to where I said that. Ill wait.

You said the system doesn't matter and blamed the players...so I'd have to assume you think it's only the players that matter

 

[Leftback99]

Wouldn't overplay it, it's fecking Cardiff for God's sake!

The team we put out on Sunday would be relegated if played every week.

 

[Tomuś]

The team we put out on Sunday would be relegated if played every week.

Nah

 

[Lebowski]

Well, the chaos in your club simply extends to the pitch. It happens at all sorts of clubs. Hamburg are a great example, but obviously on a different level. They spent loads of money and had some quality in their squad. At least enough to easily remain in the Bundesliga. They still got relegated. When you have to play for a dysfunctional club, there is a certain pressure, a certain atmosphere of uncertainty, that eventually catches up with your players. In an environment where there is a lack of competence and structure, players tend to lose their confidence and start performing badly. If these patterns aren't broken apart, they will basically repeat themselves throughout every season. Playing for United right now is just incredibly difficult. Everything you have to do is harder there than at other clubs. While you will hate the comparision, if the same players would play for Liverpool right now, they'd perform much better. Simply because the atmosphere is better. Because it's more fun.
Right now, you lack competence, structure and any sort of coherent and somewhat intelligent squad management. On top of that, you're clueless when it comes to choosing and supporting coaches. Due to that, your work environment is now fecked up and players don't like playing for you, they do it solely, because of the money.
It's just not fun to be at United right now and everything comes much harder there. That's a serious issue and can only be solved, by changing the structure of the decision making process, the people in charge and by holding the owners accountable.

Perfectly put.

1. Player power
2. Mercenary culture
3. Poor dressing room atmosphere
4. Lack of morale
5. Lack of leaders
6. Lack of a distinct philosophy/style of play
7. Lack of any short/medium/long term plan, vision or goals
8. Lack of talent
9. Culture of scapegoating/blame among players and fans

You could go on forever.

Ultimately virtually all of them come down to the executives and leadership at the club. Like most organisations, the culture and standards are decided upon and set at the top level, and permeate through the organisation with managers instilling it in to their subordinates.

As Henry Winter said in his FTD interview, when the club culture is based solely on commerciality and pursuing financial gain at all costs with virtually no regard to the on-field performance, is it any wonder this permeates to our players, who seem to have an attitude not conducive to giving everything they have for the cause, fighting for every ball and enjoying their football?

 

[Reddy Rederson]

You said the system doesn't matter and blamed the players...so I'd have to assume you think it's only the players that matter

I didnt say anything of sort. Perhaps instead of cherry picking my post for what fits your agenda, you'll look at the whole thing and then do me the courtesy of not adding in things I didnt say.

 

[Will Singh]

I'm just going to answer your question in the title and keep it short.

A: Our players are rubbish.

 

[Jeppers7]

I didnt say anything of sort. Perhaps instead of cherry picking my post for what fits your agenda, you'll look at the whole thing and then do me the courtesy of not adding in things I didnt say.

So if we signed the Liverpool 11 we beat Barca 4-0 ?

 

[Reddy Rederson]

So if we signed the Liverpool 11 we beat Barca 4-0 ?

Keep trying, bud.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Perfectly put.

1. Player power
2. Mercenary culture
3. Poor dressing room atmosphere
4. Lack of morale
5. Lack of leaders
6. Lack of a distinct philosophy/style of play
7. Lack of any short/medium/long term plan, vision or goals
8. Lack of talent
9. Culture of scapegoating/blame among players and fans

You could go on forever.

Ultimately virtually all of them come down to the executives and leadership at the club. Like most organisations, the culture and standards are decided upon and set at the top level, and permeate through the organisation with managers instilling it in to their subordinates.

As Henry Winter said in his FTD interview, when the club culture is based solely on commerciality and pursuing financial gain at all costs with virtually no regard to the on-field performance, is it any wonder this permeates to our players, who seem to have an attitude not conducive to giving everything they have for the cause, fighting for every ball and enjoying their football?

1 Not sure I agree with 1. I don't think the players got too much power. Maybe Pogba, but I don't feel like it should be a massive problem.

2 Fair enough we got plenty of those. Not sure it is a culture, but some of them might not care much like Sanchez and Martial. Some want to leave De Gea, Pogba, Herrera this season. Others are just past it like Matic and Mata even if they try. The players probably talk more about spending the money they get than about football in private.

3. Hard to know, but I get the impression that the atmosphere post Mourinho have been good. I don't think it is a big factor. Although like I said before they might focus too much on things outside football.

4. I do think we lack driven player to fight even when things are going wrong. It often feels like some of our players give up in games and they drop confidence very easily.

5. We could need more players that inspire and push the players around them to do better. Herrera is probably the only one that had it.

6 Totally agree if you talk about Ole (well do not think the board cares at all)

7 Totally agree if you talk about the Glaziers and Woodward.

8 I do think we got some talent around. Just most of them do not seem to develop or get the best out of it here.

9 I think some of our players do not look enough at themselfes. Focus on what they can do to improve and it goes together with the drive part. Us fans are also far too harsh and it might infect the players. Although we see the same in other clubs.

 

[Jeppers7]

Keep trying, bud.

Why quote someone’s post, if your not willing to discuss the very point of the post?

My point being we don’t have a system that other clubs do to get the best out of players. The example being that Liverpool’s players in our system wouldn’t perform to the level they do currently.

You obviously just want to blame the players. That’s fine it’s your opinion but why quote mine just because it differs from yours if all you’re then going to do is avoid discussing what was said.

Pathetic.

 

[redtony]

If you look at previous season Liverpool squad and compare to United (finished 2nd) team, you won't find much difference

All that happened was Liverpool added 2 extra quality players and their manager gave them a better system that fit them

If we could add a few quality pieces and Ole sort out the morale and style, we still have some hope to improve

 

[Jeffthered]

They are too complacent and not that hungry enough. The likes of Young being our captain and then we have people like lingard pretending to be leader for young player is worrying. The more so called talented players like Pogba have just given up and must be thinking what I am doing here surrounded by some bang average players. Easy money for him and others.

This about gets it spot on. Lindgard being an example of the aspiring young player at United is indeed a worry, because that guy has contributed to the nonsense that goes on, and off the pitch, and he seems completely oblivious to it. I want him out, I think he represents much that is wrong about the club.

 

[RedTechsture]

In my limited opinion the answer to the OP is pretty straight forward.....
"They're not ANYWHERE near fit enough".
Am not being dismissive of the need for new talent, especially compared to the first XIs of some other teams. Granted we have let this mentality of "Oh X player can fill that role for another season, we'll be ok" boil on for too long. A club the size of United whose first choice right back is a 34 year old ex-winger that cant defend or cross, is the prime personification of this. In fact defence in totality, how have we migrated from Evra, Vidic and Rio to this?
Any way I digress.
It was very clear to see when Ole came in and played the way he WANTED the team to play, that there is the makings of a decent rig in there. The results, performances, stats for that run over Christmas and New Year proved it. Unfortunately these performances dropped off when the bodies started to cave. I know there are those that say once he signed his contract the players changed, but I think the correlation of those 2 facets was coincidental.
The down turn in the performance and results is because the players were/are simply not fit enough to play that intensity of style, that was yielding such results in that initial Ole period. A month or 2 of that and they were dropping like fly's. Like or dislike them but during that time, Lingard, Rashford and Martial with Pogba on the distribute were causing havoc.
Then all of a sudden we lose 3 in one half against Liverpool and that style is gone. Then were pretty much back to plan A, of Mourinho ball as that's all we had.

Like I say, there is the makings of a decent unit in there somewhere. But they are all devestatingly, embarassingly, unacceptably unfit.

We and the board have to give Ole his chance. A) At conditioning his team as he sees fit over the summer to play the way he wants and B) By being backed financially to sort out the 5 glaringly large holes in our team that will provide the squad able to produce such perfomances.
With a bit of cohesion that filling those holes will give us in terms of class, and the required level of fitness for the pacey style he clearly wants to play (Which I think potential signings as James is proof of), I have slightly more higher levels of optimism for next year than maybe is left in CAF. (Naieve I know but am still a dreamer lol).
A team full of young, fit, pacey, combative players, that hopefully see a vision that Ole has instilled. I think we can cause problems and get in the bottom end of the top 4, as the start of some new foundations for the club.
The next 8 weeks are exciting and equally scary

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Why quote someone’s post, if your not willing to discuss the very point of the post?

My point being we don’t have a system that other clubs do to get the best out of players. The example being that Liverpool’s players in our system wouldn’t perform to the level they do currently.

You obviously just want to blame the players. That’s fine it’s your opinion but why quote mine just because it differs from yours if all you’re then going to do is avoid discussing what was said.

Pathetic.

No mate, what’s pathetic is trying to insert words into someone’s mouth. Not once, but twice you tried. You’re deserving of nothing more than an eye roll at that point.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

1. Lack of improvement/bad training environment for a number of years. Players have either regressed or at best not changed over the last couple of seasons.
2. 75% of our players are not up to the standard in regards to playing "modern football" --> High pressing and technical.
3. Lack of fitness. Their physical condition is far below the required standard to play a high intensity game.
4. Lack of teamspirit. They do not operate like a team.

 

[Lebowski]

1 Not sure I agree with 1. I don't think the players got too much power. Maybe Pogba, but I don't feel like it should be a massive problem.

2 Fair enough we got plenty of those. Not sure it is a culture, but some of them might not care much like Sanchez and Martial. Some want to leave De Gea, Pogba, Herrera this season. Others are just past it like Matic and Mata even if they try. The players probably talk more about spending the money they get than about football in private.

3. Hard to know, but I get the impression that the atmosphere post Mourinho have been good. I don't think it is a big factor. Although like I said before they might focus too much on things outside football.

4. I do think we lack driven player to fight even when things are going wrong. It often feels like some of our players give up in games and they drop confidence very easily.

5. We could need more players that inspire and push the players around them to do better. Herrera is probably the only one that had it.

6 Totally agree if you talk about Ole (well do not think the board cares at all)

7 Totally agree if you talk about the Glaziers and Woodward.

8 I do think we got some talent around. Just most of them do not seem to develop or get the best out of it here.

9 I think some of our players do not look enough at themselfes. Focus on what they can do to improve and it goes together with the drive part. Us fans are also far too harsh and it might infect the players. Although we see the same in other clubs.

Fair response although bear in mind I just rattled off a list in no particular order of possible factors to a greater or lesser degree.

To expand on each one in a bit more detail:

1. Player Power
I think player power is definitely a thing with our squad. There's the 'direct' power of situations like the player you identified (Pogba) - think of how the bust up between him and Mourinho was handled by the club in comparison to Beckham and Fergie. There's also the 'indirect' player power - the events of the past 7 years have presumably demonstrated to players that if on field expectations aren't met, most of the blame will be shouldered by their manager rather than them. We've also undermined our managers and given clearly sub-par players nice new contracts and haven't shipped out players that are clearly earning more than their on-field performances/ability warrants. I think the effect of all of this has been to establish a player culture where mediocrity will be tolerated, your primary worth to the club is your marketability and if you don't like the manager, don't worry - they will eventually be gone and a new one installed.
2. Mercenary Culture
The Sanchez transfer was key in this regard. We blew our existing wage structure out of the water for a player we didn't really need who ended up contributing virtually nothing on the pitch. Post-Fergie we've always paid players too much in comparison to their worth as footballers (look at the wages of the PL's best performers like Mane, Eriksen, TAA, VVD, Robertson, B Silva compared to our equivalents like Lukaku, Shaw, Young, Pogba, Mata etc), it is presumably a by-product of our recruitment being so poor and us being a less desirable location for players - we have to pay above the odds to get players. You imagine in the 90s or 00s and it was Ferguson personally meeting prospective transfer targets and their families, a lot would have been happy to sign right there and then for a bag of peanuts and some Quavers. But I assume the Sanchez situation will make this far worse. I imagine the first line that comes out of any agent's mouth when negotiating contracts with Richard Arnold is 'my client contributed far more than the player you are currently giving £500k a week to, let's talk numbers..'.
3. Poor dressing room atmosphere
It's all speculation as we don't know what goes on in the dressing room, but there seems to be a total lack of the sort of strong characters who we know were big dressing room presences in past successful squads. The fact that our official captain doesn't speak English and our normal captain is an over-the-hill winger turned fullback who is frequently the worst player on the pitch (therefore doesn't really have a leg to stand on / any credibility when telling others to buck up their ideas) are signifiers for me. Added to this, none of our players really seem to enjoy playing for United. It seems to either be a chore they aren't particularly bothered about (see Pogba, Martial, DDG, Fred, Pereira etc), or something they dread to the extent they become terrified of making a mistake (see Young, Shaw, Lukaku, Rashford, Jones, Fred again etc)
4. Lack of morale
Agreed mostly for the reasons above
5. Lack of leaders
Agreed.
6. Lack of a distinct philosophy/style of play
Ole is an example, sure, I don't think anybody knows exactly what style of play he wants to implement (besides outrunning your opponents), but he's just the latest example. We've lacked a coherent style of play since Fergie left (and arguably even in Fergie's final few years, although given Fergie was basically a DOF, head of recruitment, head of the academy, head coach and manager rolled into one, I can forgive the club for not addressing it until he left...). It's one of the reasons why we have such a squad of misfits assembled by 4 managers for 4 totally different styles of football. You either need to believe in a manager's vision and see it through to completion, or have a competent executive structure so that the footballing philosophy stays the same regardless of who the head coach is at the time, and if you sack your manager you replace him with another good fit for the overall philosophy.
7. Lack of any short/medium/long term plan, vision or goals
Yep - this all comes from the owners and the board. Clubs like city, Juve, Barca and PSG have the clear aim of winning the CL. Liverpool are clearly trying to do everything they can to win the PL. Spurs, Dortmund, and Ajax are (/were, in Spur's case) operated under the model of signing and developing young talent, some of whom they expect to sell on for far more money which can be reinvested in finding more young stars. With our owners it's not at all clear. They talk in vague terms about 'wanting to see the club as a commercial and footballing success', but Woodward loves reminding shareholders that we've had brilliant commercial results despite terrible on field results. We all know that it's easy to read between the lines and judge their actions / inactions and conclude that they don't really care about the on-field performances beyond qualifying for the CL moneyspinner and staying relevant enough so that 'the brand' doesn't suffer, but they even lack a clear plan of how to do this. They change managers when the fanbase turns on them, spend money on transfers like (inconsistent) drunken sailors with no real thought process behind the sorts of recruits they are bringing in.
8. Lack of talent
I agree with you that we have some talented players. I also agree that another big problem is that lack of coaching / development of talent at our club, so our promising players seem to stagnate. However, I think we do lack a lot of talent compared to our supposed rivals like city and Liverpool. I think we already have the least talented squad in the top 6 (whatever that means), and if we lose Pogba and De Gea this summer, I think you could make a strong argument that Wolves and possibly even Leicester have a better first XI than us. That's pretty scary.
9. Culture of scapegoating/blame among players and fans
It happens at other clubs too, you're right. Real Madrid fans are far less forgiving than we are for bad performances and there are of course other teams who's players seem to turn on each other and blame each other as well.
However, it's one of the most noticeable differences between this squad and our great teams of the past for me. I'm lucky enough to go to most United matches and although this might sound like pop-psychology, whenever something goes against this team, the whole team seem to indulge in this blame game where every missed pass, lack of a run or losing the ball causes one player to blame the other. Pogba is probably the most noticeable player but they all seem to do it. There's nothing wrong with reminding a teammate to buck their ideas up, but with this current United squad it seems to be a way for players to air their individual frustration rather than to ensure team standards are kept high. What follows is usually this weird atmosphere of some token encouragement but mostly silence and players nervously going through the motions. Again I might be reading into this far too much, but it just seems like United isn't a very fun team to play for at the moment and the players go to pieces and resort to blaming each other as soon as the slightest thing goes wrong.

 

[RedB4ndiT]

They don't care. They're just here for the huge salary.

 

[Buster15]

I completely agree, we need a solid foundation of hungry and ultra motivated players who really want to be here, then we can sign a big name or two, but you have to have a proper base first.
Otherwise it’s a waste of money and the player’s career to sign a world class player and surround him with a mess.

That is right.
What this team needs are players who think less of themselves and more of the team.
Players who think like a team.
Players who work as a team.
Players who win like a team and players who detest loosing.
Players who consistently put Manchester United first and their own egos last.
The very teams win the league, not the teams with the best players.

 

[He'sRaldo]

The management failed to extend their 'ruthlessness' for managers to the players. Underperforming managers have gotten the axe, but the players are untouched (or even have their contracts extended) unless a manager wants them to leave. Probably because they are worth more monetarily than managers.

This has led to a mediocre squad, and the funny part is if they had been more ruthless playerwise, the previous managers might not have needed to be replaced.

 

[Jeppers7]

No mate, what’s pathetic is trying to insert words into someone’s mouth. Not once, but twice you tried. You’re deserving of nothing more than an eye roll at that point.

I'm not inserting words into your mouth, I'm asking if you disagree with the point I made that you chose to disagree with. The point that you keep avoiding.

Do you think that the 11 Liverpool players come into this united team and system we beat Barca 4-0 ?

 

[Roykeaneismagic]

There all lazy individuals who dont care about the club because there on to much money to give a s**t.

 

[Buster15]

it appears to be one hell of a list - here's my thoughts, biggest problems 1st:

1) Utter contempt for each other. The Sanchez deal ripped the motivation out of so many. DDG, Pogba, Herrera, Rashford, lingard, Martial, Lukaku& a few others have to be looking at how this joke is getting so much cash. This impacts on the collective and their motivation to work for each other. Consider your own office / Building site etc & the impact some lazy pr*ck who got paid double everyone else would have on moral and team

2) Complacency - some believe the hype & think they are too good. The greats work their backsides off in the modern game, both in training and on the pitch. United players appear to think they are above this.

3) Fitness - The stats back this up, the team run less, sprint less then most of their contemporaries

4) A system - Liverpool, city (even Watford, Leicester) are drilled within an inch of their lives, there is collective understanding of what needs to be done in transition, defence and attack. United aren't drilled and rely on playing off the cuff. Teams need to be incredibly talented to do this.

5) Stats dont lie - XG shows United's problems are not recent. Scoring more goals than chances is great, but is rarely sustainable long term. Successful teams are creating large attacking XG numbers, rather than relying on outperforming it over a long period. DDG did the reverse at the other end last season, which obviously hasn't been replicated.

6) Rashford & Lingard aren't very good. Similar to 5; they both arrived with a bang, Jesse scored some wonder goals and rashford was converting chances at north of 50%; as they have settled into true form over a 2 year period, I think the grim reality is, they are just a bit average.

7) Players in decline - Matic, Young, Jones, Sanchez, Smalling, Valencia etc. No explainers needed.

8) Confidence - Eric Bailly destroyed, Tony Martial, Sanchez and so on.

Very much agree with that.

 

[humdinger]

Main ones for me:

1) Complacency is rife. There’s players who seem to think that simply being at Man Utd and earning big bucks means they’ve made it and that teams will roll over every week while we stroll around the park. Further exacerbated by the fact we have a really bloated squad containing several players who never play. What’s their incentive every week? Jog around the training pitch and then probably be lucky to make the bench unless we have injuries?

2) they’re a bit thick. Several of our players seem to need everything spelled out for them in terms of tactics, movement, positioning etc. Maybe this is normal but clearly Moyes, LVG and Mourinho expected more thinking than our players were capable of. (And then failed to drill them properly or adjust the tactics to something more suitable when it became apparent the players had no clue what they should be doing).

3) Fear. Lots of our players seem to be really scared of making mistakes. Which is understandable as a human trait, but no use when you’re trying to break down a team and nobody has the guts to take his man on or go for the difficult pass. It’s on the manager to fill the players with the confidence that they can try these things without fearing repercussions (within reason, obviously).

4) A lot of them are past it or weren’t actually very good in the first place. A lot of our first teamers would probably be ok as squad players but definitely shouldn’t start every week. A lot of our squad players should be cut loose as soon as possible.

 

[goin4glory]

The root of our problem is complacency. Its the reason why we're filled with players who are not good enough, why those who are good enough are not giving their 100% for us and why we keep attracting players whose career is shot. How can a player take the manager seriously with someone as useless as Jones can stay with the club for 8 long years and still get a 4+1 year contract?

We need more ruthlessness. No more players who can do the job, no more excuses, no more servants of the club, nothing of this sort. If someone can't produce the goods week in week out then he should be out.

Exactly. I hate how brutal the fans at clubs like Madrid can be towards players but you can't argue with the results. We're the opposite where rank mediocrity is now the norm. Could you imagine what would happen to players like Jones/Lingard/Shaw/Rashford at one of those clubs.

We need to be far more ruthless.

 

[NinjaZombie]

The root of our problem is complacency. Its the reason why we're filled with players who are not good enough, why those who are good enough are not giving their 100% for us and why we keep attracting players whose career is shot. How can a player take the manager seriously with someone as useless as Jones can stay with the club for 8 long years and still get a 4+1 year contract?

We need more ruthlessness. No more players who can do the job, no more excuses, no more servants of the club, nothing of this sort. If someone can't produce the goods week in week out then he should be out.

This.

Big wages, a culture of keeping on underperforming long serving players because they're great "servants", and the match going fans' reluctance to heckle these same players are all contributing to our problems.

 

[BalanceUnAutreJoint]

Our squad isn't that good, Ole's honeymoon period made some people believe it was all Jose but in reality finishing 6th place isn't even underachieving given that we pretty much have the 5th/6th best squad in the league objectively speaking