What's wrong with our players?

[Reddy Rederson]

I'm not inserting words into your mouth, I'm asking if you disagree with the point I made that you chose to disagree with. The point that you keep avoiding.

Do you think that the 11 Liverpool players come into this united team and system we beat Barca 4-0 ?

Show me where anything I said comes even close to saying that? Your “point” has nothing at all to do with what I said. Its just another classic example of making bullshit arguments to fit the narrative. The fact I’m refuted your question time and again should tell you the answer. How you got that question from what I said I haven’t the foggiest idea other than you’re wumming.

I’ll say it again since you have such a hard time understanding. The system isn’t the issue. It doesn’t matter what system you put in place here. The players are the problem. What Liverpool would do with our system means feck all. I don’t care about Liverpool or what they would do here. They reason they got a result against Barca very little system to it and than they worked their balls off. Our players don’t do that.

Systems. A bullshit excuse for a bunch pricks who don’t run enough.

 

[Tomuś]

Our squad isn't that good, Ole's honeymoon period made some people believe it was all Jose but in reality finishing 6th place isn't even underachieving given that we pretty much have the 5th/6th best squad in the league objectively speaking

It's in the middle of where we thought our squad ranks when the honeyomn was on and where we see it now. No way are we worse than Chelsea for starters, it's just so gloomy now.

 

[MackRobinson]

Why quote someone’s post, if your not willing to discuss the very point of the post?

My point being we don’t have a system that other clubs do to get the best out of players. The example being that Liverpool’s players in our system wouldn’t perform to the level they do currently.

You obviously just want to blame the players. That’s fine it’s your opinion but why quote mine just because it differs from yours if all you’re then going to do is avoid discussing what was said.

Pathetic.

Your question in reply to his comment was fair. He wanted to save face so he resorts to ad hominem attacks. Typical from that poster.

 

[Jeppers7]

Show me where anything I said comes even close to saying that? Your “point” has nothing at all to do with what I said. Its just another classic example of making bullshit arguments to fit the narrative. The fact I’m refuted your question time and again should tell you the answer. How you got that question from what I said I haven’t the foggiest idea other than you’re wumming.

I’ll say it again since you have such a hard time understanding. The system isn’t the issue. It doesn’t matter what system you put in place here. The players are the problem. What Liverpool would do with our system means feck all. I don’t care about Liverpool or what they would do here. They reason they got a result against Barca very little system to it and than they worked their balls off. Our players don’t do that.

Systems. A bullshit excuse for a bunch pricks who don’t run enough.

We could go round and round in circles, Klopps system is that they play high press and high tempo. The players don't simply decide how much they will run and where.

We don't employ those tactics....you could argue that if we did our players still wouldn't run, I'd point to the way we played in Oles first few games before we picked up a raft of injuries and changed the tactics. I'd suggest even with a change in tactics some of the players wouldn't be good enough...but that's a different story.

The highlighted part of your post explains to me why you're unwilling to look beyond the players at all. They need to take some blame, but there's no system or tactics that we employ that would get the best out of any players.

That people believe the players would decide to run less than every team we play, and the management particularly Jose would have done nothing about that staggers me !

 

[Robbie Boy]

They’re a-bit shite in all honesty. We bought Young the same season Liverpool bought Downing. Both came from Villa and were at their level. Liverpool are actually well run and got rid of Downing who now plays in the Championship. Meanwhile, we have converted Young into a terrible RB and made him stand in captain.

We have so, so many players who should have been fecked out years ago / never signed in the first place. The likes of Jones, Young, Smalling, Sanchez and Matic have no business being here. Then we have grossely underperforming players like Martial, Lukaku and DDG. I don’t know what the actual problem is but I know we lack balance and tactical nouse.

 

[Jeppers7]

Your question in reply to his comment was fair. He wanted to save face so he resorts to ad hominem attacks. Typical from that poster.

Cheers, I just don't see the point in quoting my point in the first place if the only counter argument is.....it's all the players fault because I said so.

That's a fine opinion, but it's not going to change mine

 

[Reddy Rederson]

We could go round and round in circles, Klopps system is that they play high press and high tempo. The players don't simply decide how much they will run and where.

We don't employ those tactics....you could argue that if we did our players still wouldn't run, I'd point to the way we played in Oles first few games before we picked up a raft of injuries and changed the tactics. I'd suggest even with a change in tactics some of the players wouldn't be good enough...but that's a different story.

The highlighted part of your post explains to me why you're unwilling to look beyond the players at all. They need to take some blame, but there's no system or tactics that we employ that would get the best out of any players.

That people believe the players would decide to run less than every team we play, and the management particularly Jose would have done nothing about that staggers me !

Yeah, we’re going in circles because you refuse to accept the truth. Our players don’t work hard enough for the club. The system is irrelevant. You can have the best system in the world and it won’t matter if you don’t have the players to work it. Liverpool players currently work their socks off for the club. That’s why they won the second leg. They gave a shit. Our don’t. There’s no other way to say it.

 

[Sandikan]

The level of scrutiny and pressure at United seems to overawe a lot of players for starters.

Then you add the fact we haven't got any sort of style of play right now, and have a massively unbalanced team without the top quality older heads to look up to. Who are the experienced older players to look up to? Smalling gets a lot of stick, Matic is winding down, and people like Young are clearly beyond starter level.

We don't play in sync, have no right side at all, and don't have a forward who can hold the ball up.
If we bought say Sancho, I'd fear for him right now.

 

[purgethefallen]

To put it simply, they need to stop playing for the name on the back of the shirt and start playing for the badge on the front.

 

[haram]

The team is broken in terms of build up and width which naturally affects the team as a whole.

 

[f_to_z]

A lot of players are thinking...wether i play well or play bad. In the end of the day im gonna still be here. Im gonna still get my paycheck. Most probably get a new contract too. Im just gonna enjoy my life outside work (football). In any work environment if you dont feel your paycheck or life is on the line there will always be complacency with people that dont have self motivation.

There is no fear of disciplinary action. There is no fear of falling of the pecking order. To think of it when was the last time United kicked out a bad player to prove a point. It was during Sir Alex.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

There is no consequences for losing.

 

[Raees]

I share this view but it still doesn't explain why they're all top pros and star men for their countries. Unless they can just turn it on for a month when the Euros/WC is on.

Quality of Squad

Which of our players are actually star men for their country?

Pogba is at best for France when he’s a mere functioning tool within the midfield and even Deschamps doesn’t trust him to be his main man who the team revolves around - those players are Mbappe and Griezmann and Pogba is asked to play out of position to help the side and has World Cup final apart been a struggle to manage considering his talent.

De Gea has been a national disaster.

Lukaku is good for Belgium but gets chances put on a plate in such a talented side - any striker would thrive in that set up. Regardless he’s not the star man by any means.

Shaw isn’t in English side regularly.

None of our cbs are star men. Lindelof is decent for Sweden I guess.

Lingard and Rash are squad players for England and probably not for long if they keep producing more youngsters.

The quality generally is sorely lacking.

Lack of System

We are the worst organised team in the EPL let alone Europe and compared to a La Liga outfit. Our positioning to receive the ball is awful, we don’t collectively press, we don’t have a structured way to keep the ball and create chances consistently, we don’t pass the ball out from the back with regularity, our CB don’t split to receive the ball - it is all a shambles and we have signed 3 managers who are out of touch with the coaching demands of the modern game and the 4th guy we have in place doesn’t look like he seems to give a shit about structured play either - mentioned being flexible - so we probably will carry on with this stupid ad hoc English style of play.

Want to know why Liverpool finally got back to being competitive - they brought in Rodgers who is a good systems coach to revolutionise their approach to the game and modernise it and then they replaced him with the best systems coach in the world bar Pep when they realised he couldn’t take it any further. We are so far behind all the clubs in England in this regard it is unreal.

Lack of conditioning

We have a team made out of glass and that is a mixture of dinosaur approaches to fitness coaching through having negative passive managers such as Moyes and Mourinho who didn’t advocate high intensity fitness training to play a pressing game and having an outdated manager like LVG who also wasn’t as high press as his modern counterparts. Even outside of training if in matches you’re playing with a passive style then you’re not going to build up that match fitness to keep pressing week in week out and your conditioning is going to take a hit. Liverpool in early seasons would run out of steam but they’re getting tougher and tougher and lasting the distance more. Barca don’t press as much as collectively their fitness gets worse and worse towards end of season which explains their recent lack of success in CL.

We also seem to hold on to injury prone but players for far longer than we should and keep them on extended contracts thus building up a squad of constantly injured players. Look at the way Liverpool just pushed Sturridge out of first team due to unreliable fitness and City kept Kompany out of first team for ages and built side without them - we are far too reliant on injury prone centre backs for example.

Cultural Environment

The fans are not demanding enough and are too nice on the whole especially matchday fans. Compare to Real where yes they’re so spoilt but because they’re so demanding - it forces the boards hands and it leads to a self fulfilling prophecy that they need to keep rebuilding the side or refurbishing the side to stay competitive. Once Fergie left we have taken our foot of the gas and not making any noise to make changes happen on pitch or letting players know they’re not welcome here due to not having the right attitude to succeed here.

We have had Moyes who was such a bad cultural fit - way out of his depth. We had Van Gaal who was probably the best we had in terms of instilling a professional culture but had a weird obsession with Rooney who was a drunkard and not training well yet was captain and it undermined the culture big time. We then had Jose with his toxic attitude and picking and choosing favourites and playing people off against each other, constantly absolving himself of any blame etc and currently we have Ole licking the arses of players who are so out of form or out of their depth and yet seems to be making the right noises in front of the media.

Then there is the salary issue - United have a massive issue here. Players know they can get away with years of underperformance and get paid a kings ransom across the board. Youngsters don’t need to play well to get hyped and get paid big wages and old guys can come to United and use it as a pension. Completely fecked and yet we claim the Glazers are business savvy and spend thrift.

Lack of ruthlessness in general permeates the club. It is bloated, it has lost its competitive identity. It’s not even functioning as a well oiled business in footballing economic terms apart from sponsorships rolling in to disguise how inefficient it is being run.

 

[Jeppers7]

Quality of Squad

Which of our players are actually star men for their country?

Pogba is at best for France when he’s a mere functioning tool within the midfield and even Deschamps doesn’t trust him to be his main man who the team revolves around - those players are Mbappe and Griezmann and Pogba is asked to play out of position to help the side and has World Cup final apart been a struggle to manage considering his talent.

De Gea has been a national disaster.

Lukaku is good for Belgium but gets chances put on a plate in such a talented side - any striker would thrive in that set up. Regardless he’s not the star man by any means.

Shaw isn’t in English side regularly.

None of our cbs are star men. Lindelof is decent for Sweden I guess.

Lingard and Rash are squad players for England and probably not for long if they keep producing more youngsters.

The quality generally is sorely lacking.

Lack of System

We are the worst organised team in the EPL let alone Europe and compared to a La Liga outfit. Our positioning to receive the ball is awful, we don’t collectively press, we don’t have a structured way to keep the ball and create chances consistently, we don’t pass the ball out from the back with regularity, our CB don’t split to receive the ball - it is all a shambles and we have signed 3 managers who are out of touch with the coaching demands of the modern game and the 4th guy we have in place doesn’t look like he seems to give a shit about structured play either - mentioned being flexible - so we probably will carry on with this stupid ad hoc English style of play.

Want to know why Liverpool finally got back to being competitive - they brought in Rodgers who is a good systems coach to revolutionise their approach to the game and modernise it and then they replaced him with the best systems coach in the world bar Pep when they realised he couldn’t take it any further. We are so far behind all the clubs in England in this regard it is unreal.

Lack of conditioning

We have a team made out of glass and that is a mixture of dinosaur approaches to fitness coaching through having negative passive managers such as Moyes and Mourinho who didn’t advocate high intensity fitness training to play a pressing game and having an outdated manager like LVG who also wasn’t as high press as his modern counterparts. Even outside of training if in matches you’re playing with a passive style then you’re not going to build up that match fitness to keep pressing week in week out and your conditioning is going to take a hit. Liverpool in early seasons would run out of steam but they’re getting tougher and tougher and lasting the distance more. Barca don’t press as much as collectively their fitness gets worse and worse towards end of season which explains their recent lack of success in CL.

We also seem to hold on to injury prone but players for far longer than we should and keep them on extended contracts thus building up a squad of constantly injured players. Look at the way Liverpool just pushed Sturridge out of first team due to unreliable fitness and City kept Kompany out of first team for ages and built side without them - we are far too reliant on injury prone centre backs for example.

Cultural Environment

The fans are not demanding enough and are too nice on the whole especially matchday fans. Compare to Real where yes they’re so spoilt but because they’re so demanding - it forces the boards hands and it leads to a self fulfilling prophecy that they need to keep rebuilding the side or refurbishing the side to stay competitive. Once Fergie left we have taken our foot of the gas and not making any noise to make changes happen on pitch or letting players know they’re not welcome here due to not having the right attitude to succeed here.

We have had Moyes who was such a bad cultural fit - way out of his depth. We had Van Gaal who was probably the best we had in terms of instilling a professional culture but had a weird obsession with Rooney who was a drunkard and not training well yet was captain and it undermined the culture big time. We then had Jose with his toxic attitude and picking and choosing favourites and playing people off against each other, constantly absolving himself of any blame etc and currently we have Ole licking the arses of players who are so out of form or out of their depth and yet seems to be making the right noises in front of the media.

Then there is the salary issue - United have a massive issue here. Players know they can get away with years of underperformance and get paid a kings ransom across the board. Youngsters don’t need to play well to get hyped and get paid big wages and old guys can come to United and use it as a pension. Completely fecked and yet we claim the Glazers are business savvy and spend thrift.

Lack of ruthlessness in general permeates the club. It is bloated, it has lost its competitive identity. It’s not even functioning as a well oiled business in footballing economic terms apart from sponsorships rolling in to disguise how inefficient it is being run.

Lots of this I agree with. Many issues to address.

 

[Jeppers7]

Yeah, we’re going in circles because you refuse to accept the truth. Our players don’t work hard enough for the club. The system is irrelevant. You can have the best system in the world and it won’t matter if you don’t have the players to work it. Liverpool players currently work their socks off for the club. That’s why they won the second leg. They gave a shit. Our don’t. There’s no other way to say it.

Yeah that’ll be it....need a new squad who’s quality is ‘gives a shit’.

Then we’ll be fine.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Everything went to shite when Ed opened his mouth and said 'we can do things in the transfer market other clubs can only dream of doing' , and then embarked on over paying washed up/don't give a crap up 'Galacticos', this and trying to lure players on the promise of getting loads more social media followers, all this to please/get more sponsors.

This has rapidly and radically changed the image of the club imo, we are now just seen as some fat ugly money cow for players and agents to come and milk, to hell with what actual happens on the pitch.

As some journalist said earlier in the week, if all the owners care about is how much money they can get from the club for minimum input, then don't expect the players to be any different.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Yeah that’ll be it....need a new squad who’s quality is ‘gives a shit’.

Then we’ll be fine.

fecking hell. buh bye.

 

[Volumiza]

Some / most just aren’t good enough to play in the first 11 in a team with title aspirations - Young, Jones, Dalot, Matic, McT, Fred, Martial, Rashford, Lingard, Bailly.

Although some / most think they are good enough. Young, Lingard, Rashford, Martial, Matic.

Massive reality check needed if we are to turn this around.

 

[M16Red]

Narcissism?

 

[Tomuś]

Quality of Squad

Which of our players are actually star men for their country?

Pogba is at best for France when he’s a mere functioning tool within the midfield and even Deschamps doesn’t trust him to be his main man who the team revolves around - those players are Mbappe and Griezmann and Pogba is asked to play out of position to help the side and has World Cup final apart been a struggle to manage considering his talent.

De Gea has been a national disaster.

Lukaku is good for Belgium but gets chances put on a plate in such a talented side - any striker would thrive in that set up. Regardless he’s not the star man by any means.

Shaw isn’t in English side regularly.

None of our cbs are star men. Lindelof is decent for Sweden I guess.

Lingard and Rash are squad players for England and probably not for long if they keep producing more youngsters.

The quality generally is sorely lacking.

To say Lukaku is good for Belgium is a massive understatement. He's fantastic for them. Was great at the WC and is getting braces for fun. The evaluation is skewed by his club football performances.

Lingard was v.good at the WC, too, which is what I suggested. Rashford is hot and cold but showed glimpses of great football there.

Lindelof is a star man for Sweden and one of their captains, isn't he? Plenty of people said they wish he would be the same player for us (he improved on that tbf).

The rest of your post is spot on.

 

[norm87cro]

They are a bunch of overpaid primadonas with the most overrated midfielder of today as their leader in the dressing room.

 

[Raees]

To say Lukaku is good for Belgium is a massive understatement. He's fantastic for them. Was great at the WC and is getting braces for fun. The evaluation is skewed by his club football performances.

Lingard was v.good at the WC, too, which is what I suggested. Rashford is hot and cold but showed glimpses of great football there.

Lindelof is a star man for Sweden and one of their captains, isn't he? Plenty of people said they wish he would be the same player for us (he improved on that tbf).

The rest of your post is spot on.

Fantastic would mean Lukaku is regularly dominating top level defences for Belgium. Even at the World Cup once the business end of games got going his effectiveness drastically reduced. His list of goals is quite funny in terms of how poor the nations are that he has scored against in international football. Belgium wouldn’t miss him if he was replaced by a Lewa or a Suarez to name two. The proof of a top tier elite player is that the team is defined by that player and Belgium isn’t defined by Lukaku.

Lingard was good at World Cup but his time for England is coming to an end - better players are coming through and he will eventually be a squad player if that max going forwards. My prediction is similar will happen to Rashford by 2022 if he doesn’t up his game over next few seasons. Hard to see how he will become a starter for national team.

 

[Buster15]

Exactly, the environment is everything in sports. People may think that simply getting a fat check is enough for players to be confident or motivated but it's wrong, everyone feeds from its surrounding and when you eat unhealthy things you are rarely in good shape.

Completely agree.
This is where the more progressive coaches stand out.
They know that they have to create the perfect environment for players to contribute to the maximum.
Every player has to feel valued in order for them to put it that extra effort to get to that ball first or make that extra sprint.
But. That doesn't mean that the coach should not be ruthless in their pursuit of excellence.
It is all about getting the right balance.

 

[Buster15]

Yeah, we’re going in circles because you refuse to accept the truth. Our players don’t work hard enough for the club. The system is irrelevant. You can have the best system in the world and it won’t matter if you don’t have the players to work it. Liverpool players currently work their socks off for the club. That’s why they won the second leg. They gave a shit. Our don’t. There’s no other way to say it.

Spot on comment there.

 

[crossy1686]

Yeah that’ll be it....need a new squad who’s quality is ‘gives a shit’.

Then we’ll be fine.

He's not wrong though. Our players are all looking around at each other, waiting for someone else to bail them out, no one grabs the game by the scruff of the neck and forces issues.

 

[f_to_z]

As much as these players isn't Man Utd quality and full of mediocre they shouldn't be be outplayed by Watford, Bournemouth and midtable clubs. Good coaching is making other teams stronger and we have 11 individual playing disjointed football. We have not been coached well for years and always expect one players or two to make difference.

I agree with your point. There is something terribly wrong in our club that players do not improve and grow season after season but actually the opposite they degrade in quality. Which is not the norm with many players with other clubs especially the younger players. Now that can be blamed on many factors but the problem is there and needs tackling.

 

[Tomuś]

Fantastic would mean Lukaku is regularly dominating top level defences for Belgium. Even at the World Cup once the business end of games got going his effectiveness drastically reduced. His list of goals is quite funny in terms of how poor the nations are that he has scored against in international football. Belgium wouldn’t miss him if he was replaced by a Lewa or a Suarez to name two. The proof of a top tier elite player is that the team is defined by that player and Belgium isn’t defined by Lukaku.

Lingard was good at World Cup but his time for England is coming to an end - better players are coming through and he will eventually be a squad player if that max going forwards. My prediction is similar will happen to Rashford by 2022 if he doesn’t up his game over next few seasons. Hard to see how he will become a starter for national team.

Which national team would miss anyone if replaced by Suarez or Lewy? Maybe Portugal with Ronaldo or Argentina with Messi but then again, he's not a striker. Sorry but it's not much of an argument.

 

[Tomuś]

Also, as a Pole I must tell you Lewy at NT level is far far away from the Lewy of Bayern. Actually, he's heavily criticized for continually failing to reach the expectations. I'd have no problems with replacing him with Lukaku's international version.

 

[Raees]

Which national team would miss anyone if replaced by Suarez or Lewy? Maybe Portugal with Ronaldo or Argentina with Messi but then again, he's not a striker. Sorry but it's not much of an argument.

The point is that he's a serviceable striker for a super strong side against weak opponents, but once he's up against big opponents he goes missing - which isn't the ingredients your're looking for in a CL level striker.

It is particularly pertinent for us because in a side which lacks stardust across the pitch, we don't have a forward who can win games off his own back and convert struggling performances into wins. Now he is not alone in being responsible for that but at £70m - you're expecting the forward to be a game changer, not a guy who relies on service and even then has a limit in terms of being found wanting when going gets tough or against tough defences.

 

[Raees]

Also, as a Pole I must tell you Lewy at NT level is far far away from the Lewy of Bayern. Actually, he's heavily criticized for continually failing to reach the expectations. I'd have no problems with replacing him with Lukaku's international version.

Even I'll admit Lewa is shit for Poles, but if he was playing with KDB/Hazard.. He'd be a lot more motivated and I don't think Lukaku's performances for Poland would be any better.

 

[Castia]

In all honesty it’s just too much mediocre talent in the squad.

I could probably list 10 players that are lower PL level at best making an absolute fortune at United, they aren’t good enough and just don’t have the hunger to win things.

Ashley Young is about as average as you’ll ever get yet he’s club captain and one of the on field ‘leaders’.....I mean fecking hell even in his prime he was little more than a squad player.

 

[Tincanalley]

It’s not just the players, it’s the set up. If you can’t figure that out, ask a grown up or someone who follows soccer. Research. Michael Walker has an article in today’s Irish Times on the topic. Google it.

 

[Mcking]

Shit managers. Mediocre managers bring the players down to a mediocre level, good managers make their players look good. We need a good manager.

 

[jem]

They are lazy and not especially talented and the club have demonstrated that they are more important than the manager, so there's no need to actually do what he says - if you don't like him, he'll be fired soon enough.

They are also on enormous contracts with salaries far exceeding their actual worth, and so have little motivation to improve any further.

I think it's mostly this. It's a toxic (that word again!) mixture of ego/laziness coupled with underwhelming talent.

Pogba is the only one whose talent is every bit as big as his own (apparent) sense of self-worth. There is no way a hack like Jesse Lingard should be getting the attention he does; much like Bez, if he weren't somehow part of a famous team/group, nobody would know anything about him. Rashford is obviously a raw, promising talent, but the way he grabs every freekick suggests a player who thinks he's much further along in his development than is actually the case. Same thing with Martial - he's nowhere near accomplished enough to be lazily strolling around (you might accept that with Berbatov, but he was on another planet to Martial when it came to actually delivering on his talent.) Lukaka, despite coming off as a very impressive young man, seems to believe that he deserves better than to be a striker on a 6th place team - I'd actually say that 6th place is a step up for him, as Everton appears to be his proper level.

Mourinho deserves all the criticism he received for his part in assembling this rabble, but he's absolutely spot on in being disgusted by the sense of entitlement that runs throughout the team.

 

[Jeppers7]

He's not wrong though. Our players are all looking around at each other, waiting for someone else to bail them out, no one grabs the game by the scruff of the neck and forces issues.

It's an issue, nobody said that wasn't an issue, but it's not the issue and until we address the fact we have no system in place. It won't get better.

You seriously think the difference between Liverpool and us is that their players care and ours don't ?

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Your question in reply to his comment was fair. He wanted to save face so he resorts to ad hominem attacks. Typical from that poster.

That will teach me to click the show ignored content button.

 

[JPRouve]

Completely agree.
This is where the more progressive coaches stand out.
They know that they have to create the perfect environment for players to contribute to the maximum.
Every player has to feel valued in order for them to put it that extra effort to get to that ball first or make that extra sprint.
But. That doesn't mean that the coach should not be ruthless in their pursuit of excellence.
It is all about getting the right balance.

While I agree, I don't really see why people are obsessed with the term ruthless and feel the need to mention it all the time. Sport in general is ruthless and unforgiving, 100% of professional footballers have been in that ruthless environment, almost all of them come from academies where the selection is done to the extreme. Here is the thing, all managers are ruthless, they all shout at players, they all criticize players publicly and privately, they all set rules that need to be followed and most of them still fail because being ruthless in a ruthless environment like Sport is just standard, there is nothing special about it, what separates managers is how they manage to develop, motivate and guide players to excellence. Felix Magath is ruthless but he is also useless, Guardiola is ruthless but players trust his expertise and believe in what he is doing and that he can guide them to the top.

You don't lead by fear, ruthlessness or by shouting to the point of getting all red, you lead by inspiring and creating confidence, in yourself and your plans.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

It's an issue, nobody said that wasn't an issue, but it's not the issue and until we address the fact we have no system in place. It won't get better.

You seriously think the difference between Liverpool and us is that their players care and ours don't ?

Ok Ill play this game, should be good for a laugh. What system will work with players that dont do the basics? What system will work with players that dont make runs, dont track back, dont pass very well, dont shoot very well and generally just dont connect at all with each other? The system is only as good as the players in it. If they wont do the work how does the system work? And who the feck ever said there was only one issue???? This thread is about the players, you want to make it about something else(to defend them?). So here we are talking about something else. Whats next? Its not the players its the manager? Its not the players its the way the club is run? Its not the players its (insert excuse here)? At what point does it become the players? After the first manager fails? After the second? What about the third? When ole fails, will it be all on him and his system? Nothing else matters when the players wont do the work. Everything else is built on top of that one thing. It doesnt matter what the system is, or who the manager is, or what colour the training ball is if the players wont do the work.

Not for nothing, but what is our system? Whats liverpools and how does our starting 11 fit into that system and beat barca 4-0?

And to answer that last question, yes, thats the difference. Thats why we got beat by cardiff. A relegated team that we put five goals past in December. Its not the getting beat thats been the issue, its the utter lack of willingness of some players to do the basics. It wasnt the system that made Pogba do nothing to stop Josh murphy setting up that goal. He just stood there and watched. This isnt chicken and the egg stuff. The players are the foundation that everything else is built on top of. If they dont give a shit, they wont listen to the manager, they wont work the system, they wont do anything except what they feel like doing.

 

[Buster15]

While I agree, I don't really see why people are obsessed with the term ruthless and feel the need to mention it all the time. Sport in general is ruthless and unforgiving, 100% of professional footballers have been in that ruthless environment, almost all of them come from academies where the selection is done to the extreme. Here is the thing, all managers are ruthless, they all shout at players, they all criticize players publicly and privately, they all set rules that need to be followed and most of them still fail because being ruthless in a ruthless environment like Sport is just standard, there is nothing special about it, what separates managers is how they manage to develop, motivate and guide players to excellence. Felix Magath is ruthless but he is also useless, Guardiola is ruthless but players trust his expertise and believe in what he is doing and that he can guide them to the top.

You don't lead by fear, ruthlessness or by shouting to the point of getting all red, you lead by inspiring and creating confidence, in yourself and your plans.

A very well composed response my friend.
Please let me qualify what I meant by ruthless.
By using that word I was referring to the objective to achieve as close to perfection as humanly possible.
To continually strive to improve and to eliminate weaknesses and errors.
To have a 'no excuses' culture and a 'no blame culture'.
Two names come to mind. Pep Guardiola and Gareth Southgate.

 

[Jeppers7]

Ok Ill play this game, should be good for a laugh. What system will work with players that dont do the basics? What system will work with players that dont make runs, dont track back, dont pass very well, dont shoot very well and generally just dont connect at all with each other? The system is only as good as the players in it. If they wont do the work how does the system work? And who the feck ever said there was only one issue???? This thread is about the players, you want to make it about something else(to defend them?). So here we are talking about something else. Whats next? Its not the players its the manager? Its not the players its the way the club is run? Its not the players its (insert excuse here)? At what point does it become the players? After the first manager fails? After the second? What about the third? When ole fails, will it be all on him and his system? Nothing else matters when the players wont do the work. Everything else is built on top of that one thing. It doesnt matter what the system is, or who the manager is, or what colour the training ball is if the players wont do the work.

Not for nothing, but what is our system? Whats liverpools and how does our starting 11 fit into that system and beat barca 4-0?

And to answer that last question, yes, thats the difference. Thats why we got beat by cardiff. A relegated team that we put five goals past in December. Its not the getting beat thats been the issue, its the utter lack of willingness of some players to do the basics. It wasnt the system that made Pogba do nothing to stop Josh murphy setting up that goal. He just stood there and watched. This isnt chicken and the egg stuff. The players are the foundation that everything else is built on top of. If they dont give a shit, they wont listen to the manager, they wont work the system, they wont do anything except what they feel like doing.

Sorry didn't bother reading this....I replied to someone else.