When are we going to stop making excuses about our number 10?

[fastwalker]

All I seem to hear about our midfield is: how much we need a creative number 10, how we missed not getting a number 10 during the summer window, how Jesse Lingard is being played as a number 10 but isn't one, how Paul Pogba is a number 10 but is being played too deep, how Juan Mata is a number 10 but is too slow and how Gomez could be a number 10 but is too inexperienced.

For goodness sake, Liverpool have three absolute donkeys in their midfield of which not a single one has a creative bone in their body and yet they are European Champions. Can we just solve this problem with the resources that we have and stop making excuses for failure!

 

[Sterling Archer]

Here's a solution:

Get a better manager. We now have four guys commitee-ing donkey decisions time after time.

 

[Amadaeus]

I couldn’t agree more. Many fans on here likes to blame the players but other managers like Pochettino and Klopp has had ineffective players. The only difference is that these managers were able to utilize the resources they had and are efficient in players development. Klopp and Pochettino with our teamwould either play Gomes there and develop him into a top player, play Pogba there and make him ballon d’or contender or do the impossible and transform lingard or Mata into a good team player that would improve the team performance.

 

[SaintMuppet]

I’m not sold on Ole but if people keep missing penalties there ain’t much he can do. A free shot from 12 yards is as good as it gets.

I agree he is probably not good long term but he is what we have for now.

The problem is players thinking they are better than they are does not help. And owners being to tight to fill the obvious gaps year after year is beyond me.

Ole already has that caught in the headlights look, he looks like he actually needs the committee in order to make decisions, not a good look for his team or the fans to see.

It’s hot nothing to do with number whatever. The team is not clinical enough fullstop.

If they were we would be sat on 7 - 9 points. You don’t take chances you lose matches.

 

[adexkola]

All I seem to hear about our midfield is: how much we need a creative number 10, how we missed not getting a number 10 during the summer window, how Jesse Lingard is being played as a number 10 but isn't one, how Paul Pogba is a number 10 but is being played too deep, how Juan Mata is a number 10 but is too slow and how Gomez could be a number 10 but is too inexperienced.

For goodness sake, Liverpool have three absolute donkeys in their midfield of which not a single one has a creative bone in their body and yet they are European Champions. Can we just solve this problem with the resources that we have and stop making excuses for failure!

Liverpool's fullbacks are indispensable to Liverpool's creativity/generation of scoring chances. So yes, Liverpool do have playmakers in their team. Firmino is not your traditional striker as well, he does a lot of work for the wide threats in Mane and Salah.

So no, it's not an excuse speaking about the lack of creativity in our squad. Next thread?

 

[Camy89]

I agree, Boris Johnson is shite.

 

[arthurka]

Here's a solution:

Get a better manager. We now have four guys commitee-ing donkey decisions time after time.

Really? Not like we havent tried.

 

[fastwalker]

Liverpool's fullbacks are indispensable to Liverpool's creativity/generation of scoring chances. So yes, Liverpool do have playmakers in their team. Firmino is not your traditional striker as well, he does a lot of work for the wide threats in Mane and Salah.

So no, it's not an excuse speaking about the lack of creativity in our squad. Next thread?

But you have just argued against yourself. You have just made my point better than I could make it myself. You have perfectly explained how it is possible to work around the lack of a dedicated number 10 by making tactical adjustments. Then why can't United do that?

 

[jackal&hyde]

All I seem to hear about our midfield is: how much we need a creative number 10, how we missed not getting a number 10 during the summer window, how Jesse Lingard is being played as a number 10 but isn't one, how Paul Pogba is a number 10 but is being played too deep, how Juan Mata is a number 10 but is too slow and how Gomez could be a number 10 but is too inexperienced.

For goodness sake, Liverpool have three absolute donkeys in their midfield of which not a single one has a creative bone in their body and yet they are European Champions. Can we just solve this problem with the resources that we have and stop making excuses for failure!

Liverpool play a 4-3-3; we can't do that because we don't have enough midfielders anymore and some of the ones we have are crap, Matic. Also, Liverpool have very good attacking fullbacks that post superb numbers in assists, we don't. To compensate for that we play with 2 mids and a number 10 for creativity. That is why we talk about nr 10s and that is why Lingard is under fire.

After we decided to go for very good defensive but limited in offence fullbacks we should have gone for a top creative mid or nr. 10, we didn't, so it is what it is. We will do ok i think against the top sides with an improved defense (last game not withstanding) and good counter attacking threat, but against teams that park the buss we will see the same sideways passing and lack of creativity as last season. We need another team of the season season from Pogba if we are to have a chance for top 4.

 

[Walrus]

For goodness sake, Liverpool have three absolute donkeys in their midfield of which not a single one has a creative bone in their body and yet they are European Champions.

 

[gajender]

Liverpool's fullbacks are indispensable to Liverpool's creativity/generation of scoring chances. So yes, Liverpool do have playmakers in their team. Firmino is not your traditional striker as well, he does a lot of work for the wide threats in Mane and Salah.

So no, it's not an excuse speaking about the lack of creativity in our squad. Next thread?

Well said we simply lack creativity barring Pogba ,we could all blame our attackers but they are mostly feeding on scraps unless this is resolved we would continue to struggle.

 

[RussellWilson]

The Liverpool comparison is poor. They have an amazing front 3 and the two best attacking full backs in the league. Their system and play suits having donkeys to run and cover these players.

However we have an average to poor attack, one top midfielder and full backs that aren't good in attack.

It's a very big personnel problem more so than a coaching issue. But Ole has a big say on the personnel so he's not absolved of blame.

 

[adexkola]

But you have just argued against yourself. You have just made my point better than I could make it myself. You have perfectly explained how it is possible to work around the lack of a dedicated number 10 by making tactical adjustments. Then why can't United do that?

How many effective playmakers do we have in our squad beyond Pogba? Now compare that to the creative players in City or Liverpool or Spurs or even Chelsea?

If you want a magician as manager then yeah Ole is not the one. But otherwise with the lack of personnel in this area then there is only so much Pogba can do.

Now of course there are short term solutions like creating schemes of play that can help get our forwards into promising situations, but even with those, you'll be hitting the ceiling soon with this squad.

 

[Devil may care]

Liverpool's midfield at least protects their defense and their front 3 is much better than ours with all of them in their prime, our front 3 is Martial who has started well but is yet to have a consistent season, the erratic and slightly delusional Rashford, and a kid who was playing in the Championsip last season, there's no comparison with the tools Ole has to work with. As for Spurs, Kane is a world class striker of proven pedigree and Son is better than any of our forwards and in his prime, they also have Eriksen in the #10 so I don't see why they are even mentioned, and now you look at their midfield base with Winks and Ndombele and they have 2 CM's that are good on the ball, we have one being asked to do the job of 3.

The only thing Ole can change right now is trying Gomes in the #10 role.

 

[fastwalker]

Liverpool play a 4-3-3; we can't do that because we don't have enough midfielders anymore and some of the ones we have are crap, Matic. Also, Liverpool have very good attacking fullbacks that post superb numbers in assists, we don't. To compensate for that we play with 2 mids and a number 10 for creativity. That is why we talk about nr 10s and that is why Lingard is under fire.

After we decided to go for very good defensive but limited in offence fullbacks we should have gone for a top creative mid or nr. 10, we didn't, so it is what it is. We will do ok i think against the top sides with an improved defense (last game not withstanding) and good counter attacking threat, but against teams that park the buss we will see the same sideways passing and lack of creativity as last season. We need another team of the season season from Pogba if we are to have a chance for top 4.

I totally get the tactical explanation, but I think you have missed the point. You say that we don't have enough midfielders? And Liverpool do? The point is that Liverpool are making use of Wijnaldum (an average at best player, plucked from relegated Newcastle), Milner (at 33, an old aged pensioner and journeyman pro) and Henderson (who has often been the whipping boy of United fans for his ineptitude). We are seriously saying that Liverpool have better options in central midfield positions than United? Who on earth are we kidding?

The truth is that they are able to get the best out of players of limited talent and capability and able to play to the strengths of those players so that their strengths outweigh their undoubted weaknesses. Why can't United do that? Even Jamie Carragher admitted last season that United have a better squad than Liverpool and he hates us.

 

[adexkola]

I totally get the tactical explanation, but I think you have missed the point. You say that we don't have enough midfielders? And Liverpool do? The point is that Liverpool are making use of Wijnaldum (an average at best player, plucked from relegated Newcastle), Milner (at 33, an old aged pensioner and journeyman pro) and Henderson (who has often been the whipping boy of United fans for his ineptitude). We are seriously saying that Liverpool have better options in central midfield positions than United? Who on earth are we kidding?

The truth is that they are able to get the best out of players of limited talent and capability and able to play to the strengths of those players so that their strengths outweigh their undoubted weaknesses. Why can't United do that? Even Jamie Carragher admitted last season that United have a better squad than Liverpool and he hates us.

You're underrating their midfield options. They are not passengers. They do a lot of work both physical and tactical. They know when to press, how to cover for their fullbacks, and so on.

Lingard is a passenger in many ways, where he cannot impact the game except in very limited situations. Ditto for Mata (due to his age). I'm still not sure on what Periera brings to the team. Our attack potential remains capped as long as we have to start one of these players (James is still young and learning).

Anyone who thinks United has a better squad than Liverpool has an amazing dealer.

 

[adexkola]

I'm still waiting for all these chances we were supposed to generate once Lukaku left. Anyone seen them yet?

 

[RedDevil@84]

It also helps that their front 3 don't need 10 chances to score one.

 

[fastwalker]

You're underrating their midfield options. They are not passengers. They do a lot of work both physical and tactical. They know when to press, how to cover for their fullbacks, and so on.

Lingard is a passenger in many ways, where he cannot impact the game except in very limited situations. Ditto for Mata (due to his age). I'm still not sure on what Periera brings to the team. Our attack potential remains capped as long as we have to start one of these players (James is still young and learning).

Anyone who thinks United has a better squad than Liverpool has an amazing dealer.

Why is any Man United player allowed to be a passenger? That makes no sense and underlines the point I am making in this thread. You quote Mata's age, but he is younger than James Milner, upon who Liverpool rely. I am trying to find logic in what you have said but I am missing the points. Why can't Ole get the same productivity, work rate and output from our donkeys as they do from theirs?

 

[Sterling Archer]

Really? Not like we havent tried.

If you want to blame hierarchy, plenty of places to do that. This is a how to get the best of what we have scenario. That's the OPs point, isn't it? Klopp got the best of a crap midfield. We aren't, the insinuating being our manager is at fault.

 

[Dec9003]

I'm still waiting for all these chances we were supposed to generate once Lukaku left. Anyone seen them yet?

So far we've scored 6 goals and missed two penalties, towards the end of last season we couldn't buy a goal. I think we scored two? In our last three matches last season.
If there's one thing we've improved on its attacking, just silly mistakes at the back and missing penalties that's really costing us so far.

 

[arthurka]

If you want to blame hierarchy, plenty of places to do that. This is a how to get the best of what we have scenario. That's the OPs point, isn't it? Klopp got the best of a crap midfield. We aren't, the insinuating being our manager is at fault.

So do you think we should chop and change every other season until we get it remotely right? I wasnt saying anything really only that changing managers hasnt worked one bit. Different strategy is needed and that we are trying but it needs time and patience to work I guess.

 

[jackal&hyde]

I totally get the tactical explanation, but I think you have missed the point. You say that we don't have enough midfielders? And Liverpool do? The point is that Liverpool are making use of Wijnaldum (an average at best player, plucked from relegated Newcastle), Milner (at 33, an old aged pensioner and journeyman pro) and Henderson (who has often been the whipping boy of United fans for his ineptitude). We are seriously saying that Liverpool have better options in central midfield positions than United? Who on earth are we kidding?

The truth is that they are able to get the best out of players of limited talent and capability and able to play to the strengths of those players so that their strengths outweigh their undoubted weaknesses. Why can't United do that? Even Jamie Carragher admitted last season that United have a better squad than Liverpool and he hates us.

I think Liverpools mids do exactly what is required of them: they are work horses that press and bully the opposition. They can do this because they have phenomenal full backs that are essential to their attack and take the responsibilities of creating chances away from the midfield. Put our full backs in Liverpools team and see them struggle to create chances IMO.

On a personal level, i prefer our system more (stylistically), 2 mids one of them creative (and arguably the most talented player in the league), 2 very good defensive fullbacks and a number 10 behind the front 3. The problem is that our options for a critical position in attack are very poor at the moment and although we can dominate more then ever, the final ball is hard to come by. Lingard is not very good and out of form and Mata doesn't have the legs anymore IMO. I am thinking what the hell was the thought process behind not buying a top nr. 10 or creative mid and the only 2 reasons i can think of is that either Woodward failed Ole, or that we see Gomes as the answer to come in future games.

Just as Mourinho was let down by us not signing a CD, i fear Ole has been let down by not having a top nr. 10. It's going to be a long season but i think that as long as we can avoid another general meltdown we will make top 4.

 

[fps]

I totally get the tactical explanation, but I think you have missed the point. You say that we don't have enough midfielders? And Liverpool do? The point is that Liverpool are making use of Wijnaldum (an average at best player, plucked from relegated Newcastle), Milner (at 33, an old aged pensioner and journeyman pro) and Henderson (who has often been the whipping boy of United fans for his ineptitude). We are seriously saying that Liverpool have better options in central midfield positions than United? Who on earth are we kidding?

The truth is that they are able to get the best out of players of limited talent and capability and able to play to the strengths of those players so that their strengths outweigh their undoubted weaknesses. Why can't United do that? Even Jamie Carragher admitted last season that United have a better squad than Liverpool and he hates us.

The three guys you've mentioned there are excellent players, with great engines, plenty of tactical discipline, and the success of the team suggests it's your judgment of those players that's wrong, rather than their being poor players.

Playing to United's strengths means getting Martial and Rashford close to goal, with one of them running at defences. Beyond that, who honestly knows how best to use Pogba. No-one.

 

[adexkola]

Why is any Man United player allowed to be a passenger? That makes no sense and underlines the point I am making in this thread. You quote Mata's age, but he is younger than James Milner, upon who Liverpool rely. I am trying to find logic in what you have said but I am missing the points. Why can't Ole get the same productivity, work rate and output from our donkeys as they do from theirs?

Mata and Milner couldn't be further apart in terms of characteristics. What on earth are you talking about? Do you think Mata can slot into the Liverpool midfield and be transformed into a workhorse? Players are who they are, and absent improvements over a long period of time you have to work with what you have as a manager.

Ole has Lingard, Mata and Periera, all with their own deficiencies. What selection combination do you think aids the ability of our team to generate chances?

Or better yet, here's a simpler question. What do you think Klopp could do with this current squad?

So far we've scored 6 goals and missed two penalties, towards the end of last season we couldn't buy a goal. I think we scored two? In our last three matches last season.
If there's one thing we've improved on its attacking, just silly mistakes at the back and missing penalties that's really costing us so far.

No it's not. We look clueless getting goals from open play facing a low block. We scored 4 of those 6 goals against an open Chelsea. Look at the pressure Liverpool applied on Arsenal, or the pressure City applied on Spurs, or Spurs on Villa. We cannot do that.

 

[jackal&hyde]

It's also worth mentioning that last game was a freak result. We had 71% possession and 21 shots. In 99 games out of 100 we would have won it. In spite of all the obvious faults of the team, it was one of those days.

 

[fastwalker]

The three guys you've mentioned there are excellent players, with great engines, plenty of tactical discipline, and the success of the team suggests it's your judgment of those players that's wrong, rather than their being poor players.

Playing to United's strengths means getting Martial and Rashford close to goal, with one of them running at defences. Beyond that, who honestly knows how best to use Pogba. No-one.

Haha lots of great stuff in your post. I am presuming you are a United fan? But if you are a United fan saying that Jordan Henderson is excellent is a true YouTube moment. If you are not a United fan, my apologies.

I never said that Wijnaldum, Henderson and Milner are poor players. I said they are 'donkeys'. In football the term 'donkey' is a term used to describe unsophisticated, workman-like players who are not that gifted technically. However, as Liverpool have proved, 'donkeys' can be very effective if you know how to deploy them properly. Wijnaldum, Henderson and Milner are not poor players by any stretch, they are (as you described) excellent at what they do, but they are (in my view) limited and unsophisticated. My point is why can't United get the same levels of performanceand 'excellence' from players in our squad such as Matic, Mata and Lingard, who are equally limited and why can't Ole use his tactical acumen to solve our creativity problem in the same way that Klopp has with his 'donkeys'.

 

[Wolff]

I couldn’t agree more. Many fans on here likes to blame the players but other managers like Pochettino and Klopp has had ineffective players. The only difference is that these managers were able to utilize the resources they had and are efficient in players development. Klopp and Pochettino with our teamwould either play Gomes there and develop him into a top player, play Pogba there and make him ballon d’or contender or do the impossible and transform lingard or Mata into a good team player that would improve the team performance.

Dear oh dear.. both klopp and Poch used one thing. Time...

 

[fastwalker]

I think Liverpools mids do exactly what is required of them: they are work horses that press and bully the opposition. They can do this because they have phenomenal full backs that are essential to their attack and take the responsibilities of creating chances away from the midfield. Put our full backs in Liverpools team and see them struggle to create chances IMO.

On a personal level, i prefer our system more (stylistically), 2 mids one of them creative (and arguably the most talented player in the league), 2 very good defensive fullbacks and a number 10 behind the front 3. The problem is that our options for a critical position in attack are very poor at the moment and although we can dominate more then ever, the final ball is hard to come by. Lingard is not very good and out of form and Mata doesn't have the legs anymore IMO. I am thinking what the hell was the thought process behind not buying a top nr. 10 or creative mid and the only 2 reasons i can think of is that either Woodward failed Ole, or that we see Gomes as the answer to come in future games.

Just as Mourinho was let down by us not signing a CD, i fear Ole has been let down by not having a top nr. 10. It's going to be a long season but i think that as long as we can avoid another general meltdown we will make top 4.

Great point about the full backs. I agree that in an offensive sense neither Shaw nor Wan-Bissaka are on the same level as Robertson or Trent. That I agree with. But isn't that what coaching is all about? As a tactician and technician manager isn't Ole supposed to be huddled with his coaching and technical team working out how to get more from our full backs in a creative sense? That's what a coach and tactician is supposed to be able to do right? Isn't that exactly what Klopp has been able to do with his? Are we saying that Ole is too stupid to do that?

 

[fastwalker]

Mata and Milner couldn't be further apart in terms of characteristics. What on earth are you talking about? Do you think Mata can slot into the Liverpool midfield and be transformed into a workhorse? Players are who they are, and absent improvements over a long period of time you have to work with what you have as a manager.

Ole has Lingard, Mata and Periera, all with their own deficiencies. What selection combination do you think aids the ability of our team to generate chances?

Or better yet, here's a simpler question. What do you think Klopp could do with this current squad?

Thanks again for the response. But again you are missing the point. The point is that Liverpool like United have a midfield selection that is limited in terms of its capability and talents. If Liverpool can stretch the talents of their midfield to their limits, why can't United? Frankly I don't care what donkeys we have sitting on the bench, I want Ole to do what Klopp has done with his donkeys and get more out of them.

Let's not kid ourselves and start saying that Jordan Henderson who has been a laughing stock even on the Liverpool terraces for years is now a Kevin De Bruyne slash David Silva clone or that James Milner at 33/ 34 has the engine of an Ngolo Kante. That's rubbish and we know it.

All I am asking is why can't we get more from less like our biggest rivals are? Simple enough question I think?

 

[DrRodo]

OP, the problem is not the creative aspect of our midfielders. The problem is:

our foward players are ridiculous overrated here.

Rashford is fast but hes got two left feet and misses 2 yard passes often. Martial hasnt got the winner mentallity and is inconsistent as feck. Lingard is more of a IG personaliyy and not a footballer. Sanchez is retired but cashing juicy paychecks. James is too young and has a bad future with these donkeys as his role models around.

None of them have great footballing brains and they never ever do good runs foward attacking the space to make better use of the vision from Pogba or Mata. All they do is receive straight passes to their feet standing still and then they lose posession.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I'm still waiting for all these chances we were supposed to generate once Lukaku left. Anyone seen them yet?

Wait, what, someone said that? It literally makes zero sense.

 

[Random Task]

All I seem to hear about our midfield is: how much we need a creative number 10, how we missed not getting a number 10 during the summer window, how Jesse Lingard is being played as a number 10 but isn't one, how Paul Pogba is a number 10 but is being played too deep, how Juan Mata is a number 10 but is too slow and how Gomez could be a number 10 but is too inexperienced.

For goodness sake, Liverpool have three absolute donkeys in their midfield of which not a single one has a creative bone in their body and yet they are European Champions. Can we just solve this problem with the resources that we have and stop making excuses for failure!

They've also got 3 forward players in front of them (Mane, Salah and Firminho) who wouldn't look out of place among the best teams in Europe. Look at our forward line by comparison; four talented youngsters, none of which are anywhere close to the finished article. They need a creative midfield behind them if we're going to get the best out of them.

Fixing the midfield problem will go a long way to fixing the teams problems in general - particularly that of scoring goals, which is our biggest problem right now, especially against defensive, compact units like Palace.

 

[fps]

Haha lots of great stuff in your post. I am presuming you are a United fan? But if you are a United fan saying that Jordan Henderson is excellent is a true YouTube moment. If you are not a United fan, my apologies.

I never said that Wijnaldum, Henderson and Milner are poor players. I said they are 'donkeys'. In football the term 'donkey' is a term used to describe unsophisticated, workman-like players who are not that gifted technically. However, as Liverpool have proved, 'donkeys' can be very effective if you know how to deploy them properly. Wijnaldum, Henderson and Milner are not poor players by any stretch, they are (as you described) excellent at what they do, but they are (in my view) limited and unsophisticated. My point is why can't United get the same levels of performanceand 'excellence' from players in our squad such as Matic, Mata and Lingard, who are equally limited and why can't Ole use his tactical acumen to solve our creativity problem in the same way that Klopp has with his 'donkeys'.

I understand, and yes thanks for the clarification on the "donkeys" point, as this can be meant quite disparagingly sometimes. But I feel you're underrating their technical qualities. They all have excellent touch and rarely give the ball away, while their positioning is uniformly excellent. Those things are underrated in terms of technicality. Compared with Matic, Mata and Lingard, those are all very different players, and this is where the recruitment issue comes in - it's not a good thing to have different players in a mix who all provide different things any more, instead you need to pick a team identity (eg fast, fit players in midfield who press and work relentlessly to recycle possession) and make sure all players fit that mould. The three there from United don't do so!

 

[fastwalker]

They've also got 3 forward players in front of them (Mane, Salah and Firminho) who wouldn't look out of place among the best teams in Europe. Look at our forward line by comparison; four talented youngsters, none of which are anywhere close to the finished article. They need a creative midfield behind them if we're going to get the best out of them.

Fixing the midfield problem will go a long way to fixing the teams problems in general - particularly that of scoring goals, which is our biggest problem right now, especially against defensive, compact units like Palace.

I agree that the Liverpool front-line is one of the best in European and better than ours. I am not disputing any of that. My point is simply, why can we not (as Liverpool have done) make the best of the rest? Why isn't Ole and his tactical team getting together and making Hendersons, Milners and Wijnaldums out of our midfield? We were told by Ole that our players are fitter than ever? Ok, well that's half the battle, because that means we can get more mileage out of them. Now all we need is a bit of tactical acumen to turn that productivity into a in-game strategy and a range of plan A and B options. Where is it?

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Here's a solution:

Get a better manager. We now have four guys commitee-ing donkey decisions time after time.

You can have Pep in charge, that won’t siddenly make our No.10 options adequate.

Ridding ourselves of another manager & not supplying him with the required standard of player is not the answer.

 

[Fridge chutney]

We were crying out for a creative midfielder and a Herrera replacement and we got neither.

Not sure where the blame lies there. But at some point we have to invest heavily when we get smarter with our purchases.

 

[fastwalker]

I understand, and yes thanks for the clarification on the "donkeys" point, as this can be meant quite disparagingly sometimes. But I feel you're underrating their technical qualities. They all have excellent touch and rarely give the ball away, while their positioning is uniformly excellent. Those things are underrated in terms of technicality. Compared with Matic, Mata and Lingard, those are all very different players, and this is where the recruitment issue comes in - it's not a good thing to have different players in a mix who all provide different things any more, instead you need to pick a team identity (eg fast, fit players in midfield who press and work relentlessly to recycle possession) and make sure all players fit that mould. The three there from United don't do so!

Ok so let me ask you a question. Put aside the fact that they are Liverpool players for a moment, would you be happy to have Wijnaldum, Henderson and Milner as starters in the Manchester United first eleven? I ask that because by your description of their skills and talents you think that they are better than what we have. On my part, I am simply saying that we have players with similar limitations, the only difference is that Klopp has worked out how to get the best out of his 'donkeys', whilst Ole seems utterly clueless what to do about his.

 

[Art Vandelay]

If you want to blame hierarchy, plenty of places to do that. This is a how to get the best of what we have scenario. That's the OPs point, isn't it? Klopp got the best of a crap midfield. We aren't, the insinuating being our manager is at fault.

He got the best of it because they are very strong in other areas and it took him a while to get there. We are not strong in other areas and Ole has had one window mostly dominated by trying to fix the defence.

 

[fps]

Ok so let me ask you a question. Put aside the fact that they are Liverpool players for a moment, would you be happy to have Wijnaldum, Henderson and Milner as starters in the Manchester United first eleven? I ask that because by your description of their skills and talents you think that they are better than what we have. On my part, I am simply saying that we have players with similar limitations, the only difference is that Klopp has worked out how to get the best out of his 'donkeys', whilst Ole seems utterly clueless what to do about his.

Klopp's "donkeys", which I still think is disparaging, all fit into a gameplan. Actually, from the definition we've been working on, Mata isn't a donkey at all - he doesn't do a lot of work, he's not workmanlike. He can't put in a tackle, can't press. Additionally, the roles of Klopp's "donkeys" are not as creators. Therefore Lingard, for example, who does get through a lot of work, might work in a Liverpool 3 because he presses and runs and harries. But that's not his role at Man Utd, and he's not physically strong enough, and he doesn't have the leadership qualities which are obviously there in Henderson and Milner. Matic isn't a "donkey" either - his technique is very good, but he doesn't have the legs to get round the pitch and press, etc. So, what I'm saying is that the United players you've picked out, apart from Lingard, don't really fit the "donkey" tag. And Lingard doesn't play in the "donkey" position - he just performs to his ability, failing to provide goals or assists.

However, I would absolutely take any 2 of those 3 as the 2 in the 4-2-3-1 that Solskjaer wants to play, so Pogba could play further forward. They would cover the ground, put the tackles in, and control the midfield physically in a way that could give confidence to the defence, back up the strikers' press, and free up the attackers to attack, safe in the knowledge the ball can be won back and recycled quickly and accurately to them. While Wijnaldum continues to develop in confidence, the other two are now proven winners, leaders and standard setters.