When exactly did our decline begin?

Josh 76

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when the Glazers bought us

Fergie managed to paper over the cracks for a while

but selling Ronaldo and replacing him with Valencia says it all

not a top club mentality
Utd had the most successful period in their history under the Glazers (2006-2011).

So it’s not as simple as saying it started then.

It’s been a mixture of things.
But the one that stands out most is hiring David Moyes. He just didn’t have the character to carry us forward. I’m 100% sure, Bale, Thiago, Kroos or Fabregas would have signed for Utd had we had a world class manager rather than Moyes.
 

Josh 76

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There were problems setting in at the end of Fergie's reign. I always remember that last home game under him where Rio scored the winner near the end, we were absolutely awful, then shipped 5 in the next game. Then it has just been one bad decision after another. Getting caught off guard with Fergie going before he planned didn't help, and Gill leaving at the same time. Then its a combination of Woodward and nearsightedness while our rivals moved on.
Those games you a refereeing to were dead games. Utd were already Champions.
 

Ixion

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Those games you a refereeing to were dead games. Utd were already Champions.
I'm aware of that, it doesn't mean the performances weren't terrible. Van Persie's form that season masked a lot of problems.
 

CloneMC16

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2009/10. We lost the best player in the world and replaced him with Valencia. We were still able to win a couple titles, but the decline of the squad started then. We were absolutely unreal from 06/09. The squad was also top tier. From 09/10 until SAF left, performances were nowhere near the quality of 06/09. As soon as SAF left, the poor recruitment over the last couple years really started to show its head.
 

MoskvaRed

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Utd had the most successful period in their history under the Glazers (2006-2011).

So it’s not as simple as saying it started then.

It’s been a mixture of things.
But the one that stands out most is hiring David Moyes. He just didn’t have the character to carry us forward. I’m 100% sure, Bale, Thiago, Kroos or Fabregas would have signed for Utd had we had a world class manager rather than Moyes.
The main building blocks of the last great United side were already in place when the Glazers took over. SAF’s work then came to fruition with the development of Rooney and, in particular, Ronaldo, as well as picking up VDS, Evra, Vidic and Carrick relatively cheap in what was our last unquestionably good season for transfers.

We dipped a bit from a very high level after 2008, were still one of the strongest sides in Europe in 2009/2010 despite losing Ronaldo but then, in the last couple of years of SAF’s reign, the lack of quality investment in the squad started to show. Being a genius (and not facing the likes of Guardiola or Klopp as domestic competition), SAF papered over the cracks but he did not leave as strong a base behind him as he might have envisaged. Also, as the structure of the club had not moved on, about 95% of the club’s football knowledge walked out of the door with him.

And that’s just the first XI - our stadium and training facilities have hardly had a penny spent on them under the Glazers.
 

youmeletsfly

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The decline started when Fergie didn't replace Ronaldo, Giggs and Scholes and then, the later managers didn't replace Carrick, Evra, Rio.

In terms of success on the pitch, you don't need 11 world class players, you just need 4/5 with the other being a bit over average. United went from having world class players in their team to fielding:
- a top class shot stopper, but not a top class goalkeeper

- an overrated English shit RB
- an overrated English shit CB
- an overrated English average to decent LB
- a world class defender in Varane

- an overrated Scottish shit CM
- an average Brazilian CM played in the wrong position

- an overrated English shit left winger, but a wonderful person in real life or a good English right winger that just joined the league
- an overplayed good Portuguese player in Bruno (albeit a very bad personality on the pitch, someone needs to slap this bitch ass boy until he shuts up and minds his own game)
- a 37 year old world class forward
- a 34 year old world class forward


If any of you dimwits think fielding this average team full of overrated English players was going to win anything, you need to give your heads a check.
We have an unbalanced side, very top heavy and we've made awful purchases in the last few years that will haunt us for the next 3 to 4 seasons until we can get rid of them.

I'm not even going to go into the Glazers, business and sports upper management discussion, it's not even worth.

We just don't have the lineup and we won't for at least 2-3 more seasons from here on. You lot should just watch the games and stop creating fecking a million threads after each disappointing result. It won't change anything, it won't even make your lives better.

We're just an Arsenal now, albeit one that is taking some good decisions towards progress. (dof, Ragnick, pressing style, Ole and ED out, etc)
 

Moriarty

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I haven't read the whole thread, but I think if you answer the actual question of the thread, the answer is when SAF and Gill left.

Now I'm not blaming Fergie at all. He's the manager, not the owner or CEO.

It's the owner and CEO who are responsible for short / medium and long term planning. When Fergie left, we lost an aura. When Gill left at the same time, that's when the decline began.
Gill was the one who, a few seasons before Fergie retired, stated that a plan for the succession was in the works and that United would not make the same errors they did in 1970. Then they made the same errors they did in 1970, but Gill had jumped ship and Woodward was the captain. We failed to build from a position of strength. Not Fergie's fault. He'd built three great teams and, like Matt Busby before him, didn't have it in him to build another.
 

JebelSherif

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Our decline began when LvG walked through the door. It wasn’t Fergie and it wasn’t even Moyes. As bad as Moyes was, the club got rid of him fast.
I assume that 'usual suspects' barb is aimed at me!

So let me retort: another Red Cafe member who cannot accept criticism of SAF whilst moaning that subsequent managers (but not Moyes) have been given 'too much time'... well on that remit SAF would never have been a success at Utd, he'd have been ejected after 7 months (or 3 years), before winning anything.

Fergie became too powerful, he fecked it up for Ole and he will feck it up for whomever the club appoint full-time too. It's also because as @Fluctuation0161 and a multitude of others have said: "terrible mismanagement by the Glazers", but I ask: why are the Glazers even here?
 

VanDeBank

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Incredible thread. Another thread to blame Fergie for the current mess. Usual suspects appearing too.
Within two seasons of Fergie leaving, United spent almost 300 million under van Gaal and had completely gutted the 2013 title winning squad. I have not seen one person mention LVG as starting our decline. It is the freedom in the transfer market he was given and overspending that caused the start of us being ripped off in the transfer market and buying marquee players that turned out to be failures. It began the era of “deadwood” in our squad.

If you spend large amounts of money wisely in football and make good appointments you will have success, almost immediately . Only United fans seem to think this doesn’t happen. Even though city and Chelsea did it.

Only Manchester United fans seem to think you need prolonged rebuilds and that things that happened in 2009 would still effect the squad in 2022 despite a billion pounds being spent on the club during that period.

Our decline began when LvG walked through the door. It wasn’t Fergie and it wasn’t even Moyes. As bad as Moyes was, the club got rid of him fast. Since LVG walked through the door what has followed is a procession of allowing managers too much freedom in the transfer market, taking too long to get rid of managers and players not good enough and giving out undeserving contracts. As well as inflating our very own transfer market. These and and only these are responsible for our decline. Ed Woodward oversaw this era so I think he’s somebody right at the top of the list to blame.
This viewpoint is as problematic as the one you're criticizing.

LVG didn't completely gut a title winning squad. It was an aging squad on it's last legs.

Yes we wasted 300 million. The club's structure was very much there to accommodate a "dictator" if you will. LVG had already proven elsewhere he wasn't good in that role. He usually imploded 2-3 years in and he was a shit DoF in the past. Most of the blame goes towards those that appointed him and didn't change the structure of the club to better support him.

He's a decent coach that shouldn't have in charge of transfers and he couldn't get a lot of targets because we finished 7th the season prior and Woody being shit at his job.

The club clearly hasn't learned anything. We hired Lokomotiv Moscow's DoF as our manager, after sacking a former Molde manager.

Rangnick is the right guy in the wrong job, just like how LVG was hired to do stuff he wasn't good at.
 

JebelSherif

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When Moyes culled the entire title winning staff for Jimmy Lumsden.

Players immediately downed tools and that mentality has stuck ever since.
People keep going back to this, but to be fair - he was dropped into an impossible position, who would not want their own team around them?

I still maintain West Ham will finish above Utd. this season - which proves the guy wasn't a rubbish manager - it was a poisoned chalice, given to him by SAF.
 

frutti di mare

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When Ronaldo & Tevez left, our CM was awful. Giggs, Neville, Scholes were mid 30s.. most clubs after being schooled by Barca in the CL finals would have signed the players to match/better them we didn’t! Our midfield got worse, Anderson never kicked on, Hargreaves was always injured, Park was good for what he offered, but other than Carrick we had no creativity or drive.

TL: DR the Glazers screwed SAF
 

pcaming

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2009/10. We lost the best player in the world and replaced him with Valencia. We were still able to win a couple titles, but the decline of the squad started then. We were absolutely unreal from 06/09. The squad was also top tier. From 09/10 until SAF left, performances were nowhere near the quality of 06/09. As soon as SAF left, the poor recruitment over the last couple years really started to show its head.
I think this is it here. We were already refusing to fix midfield and then we never replaced CR7 and Tevez.
 

Hammondo

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I think it was back during the SAF times, when Rooney was able to get his own way.
 

Ludens the Red

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This viewpoint is as problematic as the one you're criticizing.

LVG didn't completely gut a title winning squad. It was an aging squad on it's last legs.

Yes we wasted 300 million. The club's structure was very much there to accommodate a "dictator" if you will. LVG had already proven elsewhere he wasn't good in that role. He usually imploded 2-3 years in and he was a shit DoF in the past. Most of the blame goes towards those that appointed him and didn't change the structure of the club to better support him.

He's a decent coach that shouldn't have in charge of transfers and he couldn't get a lot of targets because we finished 7th the season prior and Woody being shit at his job.

The club clearly hasn't learned anything. We hired Lokomotiv Moscow's DoF as our manager, after sacking a former Molde manager.

Rangnick is the right guy in the wrong job, just like how LVG was hired to do stuff he wasn't good at.
oh yeah I’m not blaming LVG per se. His reign imo was just the start of atrocious decision making and spending which is still prevalent till this day. Those above him are to blame for his reign and allowing him that freedom to change the squad the way he did.
 

antsmithmk

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SAF left the cupboard bare. That team that won the league in his last season had no right to win it. Moyes then brought it dross to replace the class that retired, and since then its been rudderless. For me we've signed so many players who were over the hill or not the right fit for the team.

Zlatan, Schwiensteiger and Falcao joined us 10 years too late. Cavani can be added to this list.
Di Maria a class player but not the right fit. DVB is going this way.
 

Ali Dia

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The Glazers 100%

The frustrating thing is now, we’re arguably 5 players and a top coach away from functioning well and challenging. But they will get 3 and not move enough deadwood on.
We should be shouting from the rooftops about them every chance we get.

I just hope Rangnick can have a big positive influence in the consultant role.
feels like they are already stalling on getting him a midfielder this window. They’ll dither about it until the end of the window and we will keep dropping points and getting the runaround in the meantime. They are either backing him for the next few years or this is just another exercise in self serving PR in another attempt to keep the fans from going crazy and wanting them out

It’s always reactive at the end of the day
 

Hound Dog

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I have heard many people claim that spending is not United's problem.

This may be the case in the last 6-7 years, but the reason why the club had to make so many transfers is that there was no core to build on.

Between 2008-2015, it has been a clase of hopeful punts in the transfer market and the top existing players either leaving or declining. Eventually you had just DDG to build around and needed to buy an entire team.

So, I wholeheartedly agree with anyone who says that the decline started when the Glazers took over and would add that it became obvious in 2009. The squad was so strong in 2006 that the damage did not become obvious immediately, but losing Ronaldo and Tevez combined with the subsequent "value in the market years" was why United had no true squad core in the middle of the previous decade and is also the reason why the transfer dealings in the recent years have been so desperate and, on overall, poor.
 

Sparky_Hughes

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When we gave that clueless, gormless, chinless, inbred Surrey banker wanker spunk gargling bitch Woodward power to make decisions.
 

We need an rvn

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Gill was the one who, a few seasons before Fergie retired, stated that a plan for the succession was in the works and that United would not make the same errors they did in 1970. Then they made the same errors they did in 1970, but Gill had jumped ship and Woodward was the captain. We failed to build from a position of strength. Not Fergie's fault. He'd built three great teams and, like Matt Busby before him, didn't have it in him to build another.
agree with everything you said. I don't blame SAF in any way at all and all down to the board and owners, simple as.

But it won't improve until we get better owners in my opinion either.
 

Irwin99

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Incredible thread. Another thread to blame Fergie for the current mess. Usual suspects appearing too.
Within two seasons of Fergie leaving, United spent almost 300 million under van Gaal and had completely gutted the 2013 title winning squad. I have not seen one person mention LVG as starting our decline. It is the freedom in the transfer market he was given and overspending that caused the start of us being ripped off in the transfer market and buying marquee players that turned out to be failures. It began the era of “deadwood” in our squad.

If you spend large amounts of money wisely in football and make good appointments you will have success, almost immediately . Only United fans seem to think this doesn’t happen. Even though city and Chelsea did it.

Only Manchester United fans seem to think you need prolonged rebuilds and that things that happened in 2009 would still effect the squad in 2022 despite a billion pounds being spent on the club during that period.

Our decline began when LvG walked through the door. It wasn’t Fergie and it wasn’t even Moyes. As bad as Moyes was, the club got rid of him fast. Since LVG walked through the door what has followed is a procession of allowing managers too much freedom in the transfer market, taking too long to get rid of managers and players not good enough and giving out undeserving contracts. As well as inflating our very own transfer market. These and and only these are responsible for our decline. Ed Woodward oversaw this era so I think he’s somebody right at the top of the list to blame.
The blaming of LVG is wrong and so is the idea that he had much say in the transfer market. I think he even went on record saying "i got my 7th choice of players" in terms of transfer targets. Do you really think a man who coached the Ajax team in the nineties with Edgar Davids and who voted Roy Keane for the Balon d'or looked at Schneidelin and thought "wow, now that's a midfield player I wanna coach". Somehow I don't think so.

Regarding the gutting of the 2013 squad, Jose made a great statement when asked about the players that had left a few years later: he said "where are they now?". Do you think those players from the 2013 squad that were sold went on to have fantastic careers at top clubs? Danny Welbeck, Hernandez, Rafael, Cleverly, Evans, Buttner? The fact that that squad plus Smalling, Jones, etc. won titles speaks volumes about Sir Alex's managerial ability. That squad needed to be gutted after the Moyes debacle showed their true level but it's just a shame the deadwood was replaced by even more deadwood.

The truth is that the late SAF United teams were playing a very static brand of football and the cracks were being papered over for a long time. On this site around that time there was a thread called 'zombie football' and that characterized what a lot of fans thought about the team and how we felt that we were falling behind, especially after the 08 team had conquered Europe. So many match reports from that time always started with the line "United were not at their free-flowing best" that it became pretty laughable and there were times when we were battered at times by smaller teams but always found away to win.

LVG was a big failure at the club but he was the one manager that tried to get United to have more control of games and to improve our way in possession. In no way do I blame him for this sad state of affairs.
 

glazed

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Utd had the most successful period in their history under the Glazers (2006-2011).

So it’s not as simple as saying it started then.
Yes it is. By definition declines start at the peak.
 

frutti di mare

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I think it was back during the SAF times, when Rooney was able to get his own way.
I think that was more SAF having his hands tied. Giving Rooney an extension and pay rise worked out cheaper than signing Aguero or whoever, with the transfer fee, agent fee, signing on fee and wages. At that time United were running on extremely fine margins financially due to the debt the Glazers put on the club.

It’s only post 2013 that sponsorships, tv rights , and general money increased to a level where the club’s revenue was sufficiently above debt repayments and wages.
 

Moriarty

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agree with everything you said. I don't blame SAF in any way at all and all down to the board and owners, simple as.

But it won't improve until we get better owners in my opinion either.
Either that or they an epiphany and appoint some footballing brains to the board. It always got me that we had essentially two boards: one for football and one for commerce with the former always subservient to the latter. The club has spent a ton of money on players since Fergie left and, as I've said before, much of it was pissed up the wall. The choice of managers has been varied. We had Moyes, we had Giggs, we had LVG and Giggs, and we had Jose. At one time, the plan was to groom Giggs for the job (LVG) and then we had Ole, a man whom nobody but United would have picked for such a massive job. Moyes, LVG, and Jose all fell foul of Woodward, a man staggeringly incompetent in footballing matters. In thrall to agents and with one eye firmly fixed on the commercial angle of any deal, this was the set-up in place, all the time while the Glazers were taking dividends.

United will always make money but, if the unthinkable should happen and we follow the path of Leeds United and others, the Glazers will bail out and the banks will pick over the corpse.
 

GifLord

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It was evident even in SAF's last season. Our backline was exposed so many times. Just remember how many games we came back from behind to win it thanks to RVP's heroics.
Rio was done at top level, both Vidic and Evra were in massive decline. Evans was supposed to be the successor with Smalling as a backup. Then there was Jones - no words. Rafael was okayish
Carrick was still decent, Fletcher was done.
Nani used to carry us at times but way to inconsistent, Young forgot how to play football in less than 2 years after we bought him, Valencia was too one dimensional and mentally fragile - look at what the number 7 jersey did to him.
We had so many issues back then that were completely ignored thanks to RVP carrying us to the title.
 

Vaultech

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The decline started under SAF in 09, the Glazers simply cemented the decline.

After Ronaldo was sold, it was the poor scouting team of SAF that failed to look for good developing players that aren't too expensive. Players like Juan Mata, Santi Carzola, David Siliva were all overlook. The entire golden generation of top Spanish midfielders aside from Xavi and Iniesta was completely ignored by SAF when he said there's no value in the market, only for them to be bought at similar price to many Utd players.

Santi Carzola cost Arsenal £17.10m when Ashley Young costed £16.20m.
Even players like Luis Suarez cost Liverpool £23.85m at the most. Players like Jordan Henderson were ignored because he had weird knees according to SAF.

To put it plainly, his ability to judge potential players was becoming very poor from 09 onwards. Nearly all of his young players that he brought to the club like Phil Jones all had their careers stumbling. Not to mention his style of play was becoming increasingly outdated. Despite being destroyed by Barca, his succeeding teams were relegated to the Europa league and was also destroyed by other pressing/passing teams like Bilboa.

It was becoming clear that Utd, despite winning the title in 2013, needed new blood and new innovative tactics to catch up to European elites, if not domestic competition. But of all the successors he could have picked to update Utd in the latest school of football that was becoming dominant at the time, he picked Moyes, the person least capable of innovating and catching up with the European competition.

What the Glazers did was to simply ensured all off the problems that were already present under SAF's reign become even more problematic. And they did it because they decided to listen to the fans for their opinions. After Moyes, they hired Van Gaal because fans were crying out for an established experienced coach. When that didn't work, they listened to the fans again by hiring Mourinho because he was a proven winner, nevermind the fact that he only had a shelf life of 3 years at best before self-imploding. They listened to the fans again when it comes to hiring Ole as the long-term manager of Utd.
 

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I agree, I always felt from that summer it was pretty much down hill, SAF won another league trophy with a team that no other manager in this league would probably ever have won a trophy, and yes of course signing RVP for that last hurrah was a last piece of genius business from the old man but the team already was no where near our best teams and it helped that City and Liverpool weren't at the level they are right now.
 

Hammondo

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I think that was more SAF having his hands tied. Giving Rooney an extension and pay rise worked out cheaper than signing Aguero or whoever, with the transfer fee, agent fee, signing on fee and wages. At that time United were running on extremely fine margins financially due to the debt the Glazers put on the club.

It’s only post 2013 that sponsorships, tv rights , and general money increased to a level where the club’s revenue was sufficiently above debt repayments and wages.
Yes thats all fine, but we lowered our standards with how we treat players, and what we expect from them. We became way over time lazier.
 

VeevaVee

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If you ask me it started with SAF becoming sentimental. As Keane puts it

"People said [Ferguson] always had the best interests of Manchester United at heart. Darren Ferguson [his son] won a medal. He was very lucky.

“[Alex Ferguson’s] brother was the chief scout for Manchester United for a long time. I’m surprised his wife wasn’t involved in the staff somewhere.”


Then this sentimentality was extended to his former players with guys like Scholes and Giggs remaining with United till their nearly 40s. Sir Alex was against Gaz retiring and Gaz had to force the hand by calling the retirement himself when it was evident that he was finished. Sir Alex also chose his successor, the incompetent David Moyes.

To achieve that Sir Alex needed absolute power which explains why United's football structure was that of a club stuck in the 90s. That left a power vacuum when Sir Alex left with no football person sitting at board level. The Glazers were devastating to this club, they had no idea of football, they had no intention to learn and quite frankly they only cared about money. They saddled us with a mountain of debt and the incompetence of David Woodward who was given far too power on football matters.

Today's United is the result of this mess. We have the remnants of the United way (Fletcher and Phelan), Moyes way (Murtough), LVG way (Bout), Ole's way (Cleggy, Pert, Ramsay etc) and Woodward's way (Arnold, Judge etc). Different styles, different philosophies but all specialised in one thing ie failing.

I think we're beyond repair at this point. We've got a heavily unbalanced and huge side, with players being on ridiculous salaries who want out while still earning the dosh. The Glazers simply lack the financial clout to commit itself to the very painful restructuring United need and quite frankly there isn't the talent needed to make sure that it would succeed this time round. We need new owners with lot of ££££ and a true passion for football.
Moyes stripping out such incredibly successful staff also didn't help. Gutted the heart of United, then LVG soured the atmosphere completely by all accounts and cemented our rot.

It's a disgrace that United didn't plan for Fergie leaving better. They should have been looking to emulate how other modern clubs run and started implementing it before he left. The plan should have been in place for at least 5 years prior.
 

Roboc7

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SAF held everything together, club has been a mess for a long time. The incompetence, nepotism and lack of accountability is all inherent because despite it the owners are still lining their pockets.

The fact our most recent plan was a reboot overseen by Woodward who has only presided over failure and a manager who was just plodding along in Norway sums it up.
 

Telsim

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As many people have pointed out - the Glazer takeover finished the club. With these kinds of takeovers, not limited to football, it usually takes a couple of years for the rot to set in. But once it does, it is absolute. This club is now way past that stage and it will remain here for as long as the Glazers are owners. Which is still many decades away. They have no reason to sell and no one is willing to buy. It will get a lot worse before it gets any better. I wonder if I will even be alive by that point to witness it.
 

Acheron

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The team fell off dramatically when you appointed Moyes, like really bad but even before that I thought the team was outdated in the last seasons with SAF in terms of football style and structure.

Then more recently with giving so much resources and time to someone not qualified like Ole but at least now there seems to be an effort into improving the structure and develop a playstyle but it's going to take time and it might get ugly before it works.
 

SER19

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Agreed. The damage he did in 10 months cannot be underestimated.

Every club in England was lining up for a swing after Ferguson, moyes let them. Our entire 'aura' had crumbled by November
 

Jericholyte2

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About the time we were playing Rafael and Park in CM and brought Scholes back out of retirement instead of forking out for a decent midfielder, circa 2010/11