When will the money dry up?

[Feed Me]

It strikes me that United are in a quandary in respect of its owners.

They’re not sporting people and so long as Woodward is raking in the cash they have no real incentive to make dramatic changes.

It seems obvious to everyone else that United need to get a proper football infrastructure in place at board level to be competitive again (managerial change alone will fail) but we realistically won’t see any change to the status quo while the commercials are so attractive.

So my question is this: Playing the tumescent football we are, allied with consistently losing and failing to compete; when will the money stop rolling in?

Frankly, I’m astonished that we have continued to break finance records for this long since SAF retired. You almost – almost – need to tip your hat to the Glazers and Woodward in that regard – the massive cnuts.

So yeah, at what point will we see major hits to the commercial side of the business?

 

[MisterLupus]

Never. We're too big a brand - immensely popular world-wide. We might see a drop in income once the fans we attracted world-wide during our successful era all dies - so probably 40-60 years from now - but truth be told many of their children too will probably adopt their parent's favorite team so we'll still remain big business globally. Oh and that's just if we remain mediocre throughout all those decades - which is highly unlikely. We'll have more success I'm sure.

 

[Feed Me]

Never. We're too big a brand - immensely popular world-wide. We might see a drop in income once the fans we attracted world-wide during our successful era all dies - so probably 40-60 years from now - but truth be told many of their children too will probably adopt their parent's favorite team so we'll still remain big business globally. Oh and that's just if we remain mediocre throughout all those decades - which is highly unlikely. We'll have more success I'm sure.

I get all that, but I don’t understand how we are still popular. We play abysmal football. There’s literally bugger all to like

 

[Bulldog United]

I get all that, but I don’t understand how we are still popular. We play abysmal football. There’s literally bugger all to like

It turns out our supporters are actually supremely loyal, and the vast majority of us are not the glory hunters we often got labelled as by other fans.

 

[Halal Jalal]

It turns out our supporters are actually supremely loyal, and the vast majority of us are not the glory hunters we often got labelled as by other fans.

You're conveniently ignoring the fact that vast majority of our fanbase is located outside of England, and these fans have no connection to the club other than being attracted to success and trophies. We've "only" been sh*t for 6 years, relatively a short period given the strength of our brand. Make no mistake though, these fans will switch eventually - Real/Barca most likely, City/Liverpool possibly. Woodward is a short-sighted fool if he genuinely believes that performances on the pitch have no effect on the finances.

 

[Bulldog United]

You're conveniently ignoring the fact that vast majority of our fanbase is located outside of England, and these fans have no connection to the club other than being attracted to success and trophies. We've "only" been sh*t for 6 years, relatively a short period given the strength of our brand. Make no mistake though, these fans will switch eventually - Real/Barca most likely, City/Liverpool possibly. Woodward is a short-sighted retard if he genuinely believes that performances on the pitch have no effect on the finances.

I'm not ignoring that obvious fact. All the big clubs have the vast majority of their supporters located outside of their home country. Some of our most fanatical supporters are overseas. Kids especially tend to pick a big team who they see on TV a lot, and then you have them for life.

The issue isn't losing our current fans, it's getting the next generation not picking United as their team. Right now, I doubt very few kids (who don't have parents who are United fans) are watching our games thinking this is the team for me. So long-term damage will be done if we don't sort this out.

Those fans who really were actual glory hunters through the Fergie years would have abandoned us by now. These past several years have been torture with dire results and standard of football.

 

[Skills]

You're forgetting the club has signed multi year deals, so you're only going to see the impact once we're renegotiating.

Next year for instance we'll see a massive drop in income because of the champions League stipulation in the Adidas shirt deal.

 

[Halal Jalal]

I'm not ignoring that obvious fact. All the big clubs have the vast majority of their supporters located outside of their home country. Some of our most fanatical supporters are overseas. Kids especially tend to pick a big team who they see on TV a lot, and then you have them for life.

The issue isn't losing our current fans, it's getting the next generation not picking United as their team. Right now, I doubt very few kids (who don't have parents who are United fans) are watching our games thinking this is the team for me. So long-term damage will be done if we don't sort this out.

That's a good point

 

[Amerifan]

There are clubs in the US — New York Yankees, Dallas Cowboys, etc. — who have gone through massive ups and downs and not witnessed a big drop off in popularity. I assume by now most of the glory hunters have moved on to City or Liverpool and our fan base is what it is. Our huge fan base will always be attractive to sponsors. We’ll lose some revenue from no CL and such, but as long as we’re top 6 more or less consistently, with a few headline grabbing player buys tossed in, the corporation is golden.

Which is actually The Problem for us supporters going forward. Huge investment, which is needed to challenge, doesn’t generate an attractive rate of return. Unless we’re bought by someone who doesn’t care if his toy loses money, it may be a long time before we challenge.

 

[Class of 63]

There are clubs in the US — New York Yankees, Dallas Cowboys, etc. — who have gone through massive ups and downs and not witnessed a big drop off in popularity. I assume by now most of the glory hunters have moved on to City or Liverpool and our fan base is what it is. Our huge fan base will always be attractive to sponsors. We’ll lose some revenue from no CL and such, but as long as we’re top 6 more or less consistently, with a few headline grabbing player buys tossed in, the corporation is golden.

Which is actually The Problem for us supporters going forward. Huge investment, which is needed to challenge, doesn’t generate an attractive rate of return. Unless we’re bought by someone who doesn’t care if his toy loses money, it may be a long time before we challenge.

Nah most of them are still hanging around like a bad smell

 

[Green_Red]

Boston Celtics haven't won a single championship since 1986. The Yankees have won 3 world series since 1999. The Chicago Bulls haven't won a championship since 1998. We are in that level as far as brand recognition globally is concerned. No matter what happens, you can't take away our success. We just need to stay relevant. Even Liverpool are up there in terms of money and they've won only two Champions Leagues since 1990...

 

[adexkola]

Boston Celtics haven't won a single championship since 1986. The Yankees have won 3 world series since 1999. The Chicago Bulls haven't won a championship since 1998. We are in that level as far as brand recognition globally is concerned. No matter what happens, you can't take away our success. We just need to stay relevant. Even Liverpool are up there in terms of money and they've won only two Champions Leagues since 1990...

Celtics won one in 2008. But get your point

 

[Stadjer]

Hopefully never... with the amount of money the club has they (the board) will hopefully get lucky one time and buy the club out of this mess of a situation the club is in now.

If not for the money... why would a player choose to play for Manchester United?

 

[Tom Cato]

You're conveniently ignoring the fact that vast majority of our fanbase is located outside of England, and these fans have no connection to the club other than being attracted to success and trophies. We've "only" been sh*t for 6 years, relatively a short period given the strength of our brand. Make no mistake though, these fans will switch eventually - Real/Barca most likely, City/Liverpool possibly. Woodward is a short-sighted fool if he genuinely believes that performances on the pitch have no effect on the finances.

Im Norwegian so I can only speak for our fans, but the Liverpool v Manchester United fan rivalry is very much alive here. Club fandom here is not fickle. There are thousands of men and women with tattoos of their favorite Premier League teams. The MUFC Norwegian fan club has a membercount of around 43 000 people. That's nearly 1% of the entire population of Norway. Liverpool Norwegian fanclub has 49 000 members. Then in third we have Arsenal Norwegian fanclub with just over 7 000 members.

MUFC and Liverpool in terms of global fandom, are absolute giants, and will remain so for as long as football is popular.

 

[Tom Cato]

Hopefully never... with the amount of money the club has they (the board) will hopefully get lucky one time and buy the club out of this mess of a situation the club is in now.

If not for the money... why would a player choose to play for Manchester United?

What player? There are more clubs in the premier league than Liverpool and Manchester City.

 

[Class of 63]

Hopefully never... with the amount of money the club has they (the board) will hopefully get lucky one time and buy the club out of this mess of a situation the club is in now.

If not for the money... why would a player choose to play for Manchester United?

Oh I don't know, the thought if you are successful you could get a statue alongside Paddy Roche's and Ralph Milne's outside Old Trafford must be tempting.

 

[devilish]

Back in my day the best team in the world was AC Milan. Imagine pep's Barca with a top defence sort of thing. They won 6 CLs as opposed to our 3. Where are they now?

In terms of brand we are bigger but fans are human. Feed them shit week in week out for a decade and they will grow cold and stop following football . Their kids will probably follow another club whose interesting to watch. The sponsors will follow.

The Glazers should sell now while they are sitting on a gold mine. They lack the expertise and the funds to turn this around

 

[devilish]

Nah most of them are still hanging around like a bad smell

From my experience on this forum and at the oldest United supporters club in the world, the first to go are the top reds. Those bothering criticising are the one who care. The others tend to feed on the positivity of a successful side. Once the positivity leave they tend to follow

 

[red thru&thru]

When fans stop purchasing merchandise and stop going to games. It's not even a question of loyalty anymore. It's a point that we are being run very poorly. We, as fans, can witness this and still do nothing.

I wonder what majority would do if they were seeing their own house fail. Would they make changes or still continue to see the rot set in?!

 

[WR10]

Ignoring all the blah blah about football here's what matters:

2015 621.78M
2016 763.4M 22.7%
2017 736.92M (3.5%)
2018 793.5M 7.7%
2019 811.64M 2.2%
USD

This is what this club is about. To really show you that football means absolutely feck all for this club look at their market price for a share in the past 10 years. Before you do - ask yourself, would the market price reflect our football performances (ie fergie) or would it reflect our years of substantial revenue growth? Now that you have figured that out, ask yourself... to what performance expectations does Ed Woodward set himself to?

Our money is not 'dried up'. We're in actually quite good current health. The dying revenue growth is what will be the death of us as a top 10 world club.

We're not making the champions league this season. We're not winning the Europa league unless for some breathtaking signings in January.

The next annual report will show negative revenue growth. Compiled with our dead growth in the past 3 years - it's the end. Share price will hit a 10 year low (that's probably when I'll pick some up for myself ).

However, the club's fanbase will truly be changed by then. It will no longer have the expectations of the past 5 years, so there will be less disappointment. There will be a more passive support base without the ferocious commercial power. This forum will lose 30-40% of its traffic (sorry ad revenues).

People will be happier though

 

[manutddjw]

Were fine unless this continues for another 20 years or so. Glory hunter fans aren’t so much a problem because they typically say this “I also support Barcelona, Juventus is my Italian team and I like PSG as well”. In short a glory hunting fan isn’t as fussed as us with what’s going on because they get the satisfaction United used to give them elsewhere.

Also you have to keep in mind fan support usually comes from family. So even if half our supporters get our kids into supporting united, we’ll be fine.

 

[JPRouve]

Boston Celtics haven't won a single championship since 1986. The Yankees have won 3 world series since 1999. The Chicago Bulls haven't won a championship since 1998. We are in that level as far as brand recognition globally is concerned. No matter what happens, you can't take away our success. We just need to stay relevant. Even Liverpool are up there in terms of money and they've won only two Champions Leagues since 1990...

The Montréal Canadiens haven't won a Stanley cup since 1993.

 

[Red_toad]

You're conveniently ignoring the fact that vast majority of our fanbase is located outside of England, and these fans have no connection to the club other than being attracted to success and trophies. We've "only" been sh*t for 6 years, relatively a short period given the strength of our brand. Make no mistake though, these fans will switch eventually - Real/Barca most likely, City/Liverpool possibly. Woodward is a short-sighted fool if he genuinely believes that performances on the pitch have no effect on the finances.

Is spurs fans in Australia, they’ve won feck all for decades. Or are you ignoring that fact?

 

[Green_Red]

Celtics won one in 2008. But get your point

Meant to write "have one a single championship", not "havent".

 

[adexkola]

Meant to write "have one a single championship", not "havent".

Ah, as you were

 

[Snow]

Never. We're too big a brand - immensely popular world-wide. We might see a drop in income once the fans we attracted world-wide during our successful era all dies - so probably 40-60 years from now - but truth be told many of their children too will probably adopt their parent's favorite team so we'll still remain big business globally. Oh and that's just if we remain mediocre throughout all those decades - which is highly unlikely. We'll have more success I'm sure.

Not never. Look at the number of major companies worth billions that have gone under in the past 10-20 years.

I guess sport clubs are different (Dallas Cowboys are huge and haven't won anything for a long time) but never say never.

 

[Lennon7]

It won’t, because it’s pretty obvious we’ve been focusing much more on the commercial side of things rather than the football side of things, and the fact we’re still top of the game in terms of revenue is exactly why things won’t be completely revamped to improve us as a football set up. It’s a joke.

 

[Pexbo]

It’s not going to dry up but people need to recognise that it’s all relative.

Back in 2015 when Ed slapped his balls on the table and said that we were capable of doing things in the transfer market that other clubs could only dream of he wasn’t joking. Back the spending £60-£80m on a player and giving them £200k a week was a big deal and we could realistically do that once a year on top of other big buys, maybe even twice a year if the right two players were available.


Times have very much moved on though, and those players he was thinking of for £90m are now £150m and they’re asking for £350k a week in wages.

Have our revenues increased by 50-60% to match that increase? Have they feck.

 

[AllezLesDiables]

United has much greater exposure (risk) than the Cowboys or the Canadiens.

The Cowboys can’t be relegated and American football is a religion in Texas. Even when the Cowboys suck they have the NFL draft which gives them the opportunity to draft one of the best young players.The same thing applies to Montreal.

United can be relegated. United doesn’t improve their chances by not being a non-Champions League team.

While United is showing record revenue the effects of poor performance do not immediately show up until later.

If the seemingly unfathomable were to happen and United were to be relegated that would create a massive drop in revenue from missing out on the PL share, plus the sponsors would look elsewhere or play much less once their contacts expired. Who knows what is the contacts but I am sure there is language that addresses what happens if United gets relegated.

However, assuming United never gets relegated, there will be a decrease in fan interest and engagement. Sponsors will use lack of winning as leverage in nevotiatiobs and players will avoid United.

 

[Casanova85]

The main problem is that Ed is stuck in the pre-100-150 million signings.

And as for popularity: obviously finishing 6th-10th five times in a row would massively damage this club, but I still think Man Utd is the most popular club in England. From the Busby Babes and Munich and the still famous 1968 team to SAF's modern Glory Years, Man Utd is still the reference. Klopp and Pep are like a bad flu but their run will end sooner than later.

 

[Alemar]

You're conveniently ignoring the fact that vast majority of our fanbase is located outside of England, and these fans have no connection to the club other than being attracted to success and trophies.

This is seriously total bollocks. It doesn’t work like this.

The thing is, that your favorite team is not your wife or your car. One can choose his wife, and he can divorce and get a new one. Same with a car. But with a team it works differently - the team chooses you, and it can never be changed.

Here, the vast majority supports Man Utd and it will continue - and many of us have nothing to do with England (although people may still have their team in their home country as well). What MAY HAPPEN is that people stop bothering to buy merchandise, visit games or pay for viewing matches on paid tv - it may be a consequence of boring football and lack of results. But it doesn’t mean these people stop supporting the club, let alone start supporting another - of course they won’t.

It’s logical: why bother spending time and money to watch something that is consistently shit? If there are no changes, profits will start to diminish soon. And sponsors also want success - it’s better to be associated with glory and success, rather than with consistent shit. In this regard, it’s truly unbelievable that the management still keeps Ole and such players as Lingard, Mata, Matic and Young and doesn’t do anything

 

[Sterling Archer]

Boston Celtics haven't won a single championship since 1986. The Yankees have won 3 world series since 1999. The Chicago Bulls haven't won a championship since 1998. We are in that level as far as brand recognition globally is concerned. No matter what happens, you can't take away our success. We just need to stay relevant. Even Liverpool are up there in terms of money and they've won only two Champions Leagues since 1990...

Scary thing is that may be fueling the American attitude and acceptance of our horrible on field state

 

[Class of 63]

From my experience on this forum and at the oldest United supporters club in the world, the first to go are the top reds. Those bothering criticising are the one who care. The others tend to feed on the positivity of a successful side. Once the positivity leave they tend to follow

Interesting take.

Or create a "is it safe to go into the united forum yet" thread

Did you go to the MUTV day at the Grand Hotel Excelsior in 2008 or are you camera shy? Or too young?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It will eventually dry up if we keep this up for another 6-7 years. I mean, we'll still be a wealthy club, but maybe not the top dogs anymore (among not doped out clubs).

 

[Eric7C]

History is replete with once huge corporations that didn't change with the times and went under in the blink of an eye. Potential examples currently include VW, Boeing and Manchester United.

 

[Class of 63]

This is seriously total bollocks. It doesn’t work like this.

The thing is, that your favorite team is not your wife or your car. One can choose his wife, and he can divorce and get a new one. Same with a car. But with a team it works differently - the team chooses you, and it can never be changed.

Here, the vast majority supports Man Utd and it will continue - and many of us have nothing to do with England (although people may still have their team in their home country as well). What MAY HAPPEN is that people stop bothering to buy merchandise, visit games or pay for viewing matches on paid tv - it may be a consequence of boring football and lack of results. But it doesn’t mean these people stop supporting the club, let alone start supporting another - of course they won’t.

It’s logical: why bother spending time and money to watch something that is consistently shit? If there are no changes, profits will start to diminish soon. And sponsors also want success - it’s better to be associated with glory and success, rather than with consistent shit. In this regard, it’s truly unbelievable that the management still keeps Ole and such players as Lingard, Mata, Matic and Young and doesn’t do anything

Never agreed with that, for some maybe but for most it's all about getting your name/product out there and as often as possible - take Kohler United's sleeve sponsor, is their name going to be seen more worldwide if United beat say Brighton 1-0 at home, or if they get beat 0-2?

 

[POF]

Of course it will dry up. Already, major sponsorships are in danger of being cut significantly due to lack of Champions League football. Global fanbase is absolutely driven by success and the new generation of young fans will follow Salah, Mane, De Bruyne and Aguero rather than JLingz and Beans.

A European super league is always a possibility and if that eventuates after United have sat in midtable for a decade with no Champions League for 5 years, there's a real possibility it could happen without them. How could they justify being included?

A club can afford a few barren years but this is a club that has spent absolute fortunes in the last 5-6 years and has its weakest squad in 30 years. Italy has seen some huge clubs fall from grace over recent years but I don't think any of them were run as poorly as this United.

 

[Sky1981]

Laugh at the england fans claiming overseas fans to be glory hunters.

If we're after glory we'd support city. The fact that we're here vehemently arguing while our team is in relegation form.

 

[HowieC]

Watching Liverpool win last minute yesterday... I had this recurring thought.

It feels like we are in a movie, and are the bad guys. For years we crushed and dominated while Liverpool languished with Ferguson at the helm.

He built our financial power and global reach beyond compare. Our financial power far outstrips our domestic rivals barring City.

It seems like with all the massive advantages we have over other clubs, we should be up in contention with City every year given random luck in transfers, managers etc.

For instance, we have spent an absolute fortune on players and statistically much more of them should have come good, but almost every single player barring the latest additions have been failures or disappointments.

On the other hand Liverpool, why having spent significantly, seem like the plucky underdog protoganists who have a likeable intelligent manager, and managed to overcome challenges with incredible skill and plot armour luck.

To give a star wars analogy, we are like the big bad empire with all the resources and spending, but 1 rebel star can kill 50,000 of us.

Like the great narrator has it in for us.

 

[Class of 63]

Laugh at the england fans claiming overseas fans to be glory hunters.

If we're after glory we'd support city. The fact that we're here vehemently arguing while our team is in relegation form.

If you'd been born 13/14 years later you probably would have though - and it's those that latched onto United when we were in a period of domination who seem to be most critical of the club now that we're not winning trophies left right and centre.

ps. We've got 100's of 1000's of glory hunters in England as well, but they are less likely to switch clubs but rather chose another sport, Rugby League usually