Horrible injuries affect virtually every player that gets them. Alot of the former Dortmund 'klopp' players have proven to be hugely injury prone or have in Gotze's case suffered from debilitating sicknesses.
Where did it all go wrong for Mario Gotze?
- Thread starter The Bloody-Nine
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Are you saying there's a connection between Klopp and the injuries?
I think Klopp makes some players much better than they are. Götze was talented, but fact is that Klopp got the best out of him. Once he moved to Bayern, pressure piled up and he wasn't an automatic starter. Then injuries came and he was never the same player. Instead of kicking on into the world class category (like Lewandowski), he fell off a cliff. He still has some talent, but his explosiveness is gone and he was never a goalscorer. What is left is some technical ability, but without the confidence/mental strength and pace, it isn't enough anymore. He is just a shadow these days and more talented and younger players will outperform him regularly.
It wasn't just pressure. Pep actually asked for Neymar and didn't really have a spot for Götze in his concept, as he doesn't have the pace to play out wide and take on players 1v1, centrally he had to compete with Kroos, Schweinsteiger and Thiago, not exactly a kind task either.
Good thread. Looked very promising at one point. When that young Germany team broke through, I thought Ozil and Gotze would be two of the best players in the World.
Gotze has looked a little chubby for a while
Gotze has looked a little chubby for a while
Alot of people claim young players are generational talents or future Ballon D'or winners if they are performing well at 18/19 and putting up good stats, they believe improvement will be linear. 'If he's scoring 20 goals at 18, he's going to be amazing when he reaches 24' but that's not case most of the time, muscular disorder or not, many players just peak early and stay at that relative level, where their flaws are never corrected and they remain the same player.
Maybe he was overrated/overhyped too. He is never close to Messi potential anyway, he was just one of those talented young players, where at least half of them fail to progress further in their career.
not yet... premier league i think
somebody (newcastle, west ham, everton, leicester) who can pay good wages will take a punt on a free ... possibly a bigger club even if hes happy with a squad role (arsenal?... even spurs if hes free)
Hes still on 27 has five league titles and a world cup - hes not exactly a flop
Of course he wasn't Messi level of talent, but who is/was? Messi's combination of technique, intelligence and explosiveness is very very rare. There are maybe one or two of them in every generation, the last ones being Messi, R9 and Maradona. Götze was in the tier below that, on Neymar/Hazard level and that's already very impressive. And he was the best of the bunch at the time of his Bayern move and Dortmund's CL final. The tier below the absolute top talents. Don't think he was less talented than Sancho, Mbappe, Felix, Havertz etc.
What I mean is, it’s really hard to assess young talent accurately at their early age. If you look at list of top 50 young players from time to time, there would only be around less than 15 who could actually make it to the top, or at least realise their so called potential. Even back in England, we’ve witness all the crazy hyping of great talent like Joe Cole, Walcott, Wilshere, Januzaj etc. In other parts of world there are Pato, Denilson, Robinho, Thiago and lately Ascensio who are all very highly rated at one point.
Scored in a World Cup final and everybody expected him to be the next Messi.
when in reality he is the German Jack Wiltshire.
when in reality he is the German Jack Wiltshire.
The illness causing all this might have something to do with it.
It's fairly easy to argue that Götze actually made it to the top, he was a genuine top performer for about three to four years, before his pace evaporated and made him incompatible with most team's approaches. You still see that he's a good player in theory though: when Favre found a role for him that suited him a bit more, last season, he immediately started produced consistently good performances.
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I know, but I was once totally convinced payers like Denilson (world most expensive player, very disappointing career), Robinho (still had a very good career, but far from the level I was expecting. I expect him to be at least equivalent to Mbappe today, the generational type of talent, and may match the level of 3R of Brazil one day), Pato (during 08-11, he was one of the very best young talent in the world, expect him would have Kaka type of career) are going to make it very big too.They all really looks very very good at one point, but then suddenly/gradually fall off the cliff,
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You think so? I think it's fairly easy to assess their talent. You see how good their technique is, you see their physique, their decision making.
It's called potential because it may never be realised. It always comes with an if. And many talents will never realize it, others will, but that doesn't mean that the former never had potential to begin with (which you were implying, at least that's wat I understood).
In case of Götze, it's slightly different, though. His last two seasons at Dortmund were already world class. That wasn't potential, it was performance. In his case, his condition actually lessened his potential since it affected his agility and explosiveness (which was already average to begim with). I still hope for the opposite but the current Götze can't even become as good as the 20 year old. Similarly to R9 exemplarily after his injuries and when his very own sickness started to show.
If you regard Gotze 2 season at dortmund (best season 17 goals, 14 assist) as world class, you may as well regard Kagawa (best season 17 goals, 8 assists), Mkhitaryan (best season 23 goals, 20 assists) as world class too. They are at least equally impressive.
No offense, but I don't think you've actually seen them play if you suggest that. Mkhitaryan and Kagawa were very good players in their own right but they weren't even close to Götze and I guess pretty much every BVB fan who's not still holding a grudge against Götze will agree. Saying they were better than him because they had better scorers is like suggesting Pedro was better than Iniesta for Barca. Götze was quite clearly the best player for Dortmund in 2012 and 2013 and that was a team which featured Lewandowski, Reus, Gündogan and Hummels in their primes. Honestly, Götze 2013 is still the best German player I've seen play. Better than Schweinsteiger, Ballack, Kroos, Özil, Reus and Lahm. Sadly it only lasted for a very short period of time. Most German players I know have some restrictions which keep them from ever becoming a Ballon D'Or contender. Götze had everything back then. Personally, I haven't had the same feeling about another German player. Not even Havertz and he's a youth product of the club I support.
Here's a video of his 2013 season. Bad quality, but still great to watch, IMO.
I absolutely agree with everything you say. I remember watching him for Dortmund in the champions league where he was excellent and for Germany as well when he comfortably outshone Neymar in a friendly. Sadly, due to his illness as well as an ill advised move to the Bundesliga's gigantic parasites i.e Bayern ruined him.
My question to Bundesliga fans is that don't they get frustrated when Bayern buy up their other teams best footballers and kill the competition year after year?
My question to Bundesliga fans is that don't they get frustrated when Bayern buy up their other teams best footballers and kill the competition year after year?
Stats are not everything. If they were Gerd Muller should be in the 'GOAT' conversation or the best of his generation consideration (no offense to him, a fantastic goalscorer but never as good as Cruijff or Backenbauer outside of that)
Havertz going to Bayern would ruin the Bundesliga for me for a season or two I guess. It's super frustrating but the competition is only one aspect. The more important for me is the behaviour of Bayern officials which is unbearable at times. I think as a non-German you can't really know how incredibly derogative they can be at times. And it transfers to many of their fans, unfortunately.
You mean the staff? People like Rummenigge seem unbearable and I've no skin in this game.
Signed for PSV on a two year deal. News came from absolutely nowhere. Quite a coup for the Dutch league to sign a player with such a reputation.
We don't need to be german to know that Hoeness guy was a twat
. Not sure about the current hierarchy though hahaWow, of he can get fit and some semblance of his level that's a brilliant move by PSV. Exciting stuff.
Went to a club who's system he didnt fit in and then he had his health struggles.