Sometimes you have to take some accountability in creating the monster, and that is essentially what this club has done. We’re reaping what we sow in that the only way we’ve been able to buy/keep ‘top level’ players due to a catalogue of mismanagement is to massively overpay on wages and big up egos way beyond some capabilities. You end up with few players actually playing for the shirt and a lack of urgency or desire. I do honestly believe most of the players are crying out for the balance of an Ole who made them feel good, and a master tactician who they feel will lead them to trophies during what is a short career. Currently we’re in a bit of a no mans land and another change curve leading players past denial and quickly to apathy. It’s going to take time to get were we all want and need to be, and a key manager to do it. Team wise for the short term, I’d be tempted to put whatever ballers we may have (Bruno, VDB) into the midfield to try and creat some transition, move to a back three, and get Sancho, Cavani and Greenwood as a hard working forward line with Bruno supporting as much as possible to keep the ball in the opposition half. I know this leaves us open but we are at the moment anyway. If it works then Ronaldo’s inevitable gripe will be moot, if not then fine bring him back in.
Where do we go from here?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
It's January and we're 22 points off top, playing worse than ever in the same miserable way as under 4 previous ones. It's utterly grim times.
My point is we should do exactly what you say, but i also believe our team is riddled with selfish modern day players without any desire to go further than they have and our off field bosses are even worse
Yeah you're right. If it's not broken don't fix it. Pogba and Ronaldo will lead us to glorious victory.
I believe that things can turn around very quickly in football and quality is very fluid.
Who knows, any of Pochettino, Ten Hag, or what do I know, Potter, someone, might come in, click with the squad, and suddenly selfish, overpaid primadonnas and mediocre deadwood turn into fine performers and likeable fan favourites. You're never too far away, especially a club with your level of constant investment.
totally agree, Keane said it when Jose went, Ole went and seems they aren’t happy with later training, or trying something new, because what eh were doing last time was working so well.
someone needs to tell them, they are a disgrace to the badge, hell next week out the B/C team out
I know this is just a hypothetical and it can never be proven or disproven so maybe arguing about it is pointless, but I just do not agree with this claim and I would be willing to bet my life that it would not happen.
I hope you're right. I think 8 years and 4 managers of exactly the same suggests something deeper to many of us. Im of the opinion to let Rangnick rip it up and choose a success he seems suited to squad
Integrate the best of the youth team. The Summer transfer window should be historically busy with in & outs.
I actually firmly disagree with this. Heads would drop very quickly if they players didnt buy into his tactics.
Haven't the owners been here since 2005? We've won a bit since then
I'm of the opinion to not give Rangnick more weight than what he has, that of an interim manager. You don't need anything else from him.
He hasn't anything integral to offer, beyond being an experienced hand for the rest of the season nudging the coaching and squad-planning towards a direction which will mean someone like Pochettino doesn't have to overcome too much inertia or opposing movement. That's the plan, and it's fine.
He can consult after, why not. But I'm sure your new manager, whoever it is, will understand perfectly fine, on his own, that intensity, pressing, control, work rate are important for a strong team.
You certainly don't need Rangnick to tear down brick by brick everything about your massive, historic club, which even in an almost decade long crisis hasn't veered too far off the world's top 10, just because he has a career of promoting small no name clubs from German lower league with billionaire backing.
But it's only a fan fantasy born out of misery anyway, he hasn't the job, role, power to do so and he's not going to get it. So it's fine.
As for the 8 years, you needed to sort out the post-Ferguson vacuum and identity crisis. It takes time, illustrated by the fact that you only just managed to appoint a DoF not even a year ago, and before every managerial change meant a collossal waste of investment. Not saying every poor decision was predetermined, but probably it was always going to take time, and mistakes.
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In a different path to what most are suggesting here, I think we should stop buying youth and potential and should instead, for a few years at least, only buy older players that are in their prime. The club rule should be don't buy any player under the age of 26. We pay them high wages but for short term contracts, 2 to 3 years max.
Why? Because for whatever many number of reasons players aren't improving here. We are paying a premium on young talent and then delude ourselves thinking that if we just keep playing them through rough spells, or maybe a loan or two, that it will eventually pay off when they put it all together and fulfill their potential. But this isn't happening. The players aren't improving, but then we repeat the same mistake.
Martial bought for 50M after impressing for Monaco when he was very young, and is he a better player now? Oh well, that didn't work out, so lets spend a bomb on Sancho after impressing as a 20 year old. Yes its a lot of money, but no worry chaps, in three years he will look like a bargain!
Have Dalot, Baily or Lindelof improved since they've been here? I can't see any real improvement in those. No worries, lets spend a ton on another young fullback. He is a great defender and surely his attacking and crossing can be improved upon, and then we'll have our right back for 10 years!
This just isn't working. Only buy finished products and stop wishing to hit the lottery with a team of kids to replicate the famous classes of a long gone age.
Why? Because for whatever many number of reasons players aren't improving here. We are paying a premium on young talent and then delude ourselves thinking that if we just keep playing them through rough spells, or maybe a loan or two, that it will eventually pay off when they put it all together and fulfill their potential. But this isn't happening. The players aren't improving, but then we repeat the same mistake.
Martial bought for 50M after impressing for Monaco when he was very young, and is he a better player now? Oh well, that didn't work out, so lets spend a bomb on Sancho after impressing as a 20 year old. Yes its a lot of money, but no worry chaps, in three years he will look like a bargain!
Have Dalot, Baily or Lindelof improved since they've been here? I can't see any real improvement in those. No worries, lets spend a ton on another young fullback. He is a great defender and surely his attacking and crossing can be improved upon, and then we'll have our right back for 10 years!
This just isn't working. Only buy finished products and stop wishing to hit the lottery with a team of kids to replicate the famous classes of a long gone age.
Only Bruno has been a success out of our recent buys. We are terrible at buying players and also developing players. Jota was available at 40m still we insisted on buying the less dynamic Sancho for 72m. Buying established players aged 23-28 might be one way forward.
Pool on the other hand have a great transfer record under Klopp.
They’ve won feck all. Most of that was down to Ferguson.
Please don’t even begin to tell me that because of their sound ownership the 4 trophies (if you want to count the charity shield) we’ve won since 2013 has been because of the decisions they have made and that in some way we should be praising them for it.
It's not like we haven't tried some of that in recent years, and it hasn't really worked either: Sanchez, Di Maria, Schneiderlin.
I think you'll get more Schneiderlin types than anything else by following that method. The top players at their peak cost $60M+, and that's if them or their club are even interested in a move. You just can't get a De Bruyne or a Salah in their prime. The top players tend to stay at one place during their best years, the rare exceptions are the ones that break transfer records when a move happens.
Then for the guys a level below that you're trying to take off of other PL clubs there's a huge premium to be paid. And that's where I think you'll end up finding some players that will maintain their good level, others that will maybe move up a notch, but then you'll get your Schneiderlins that will just be found out when all of a sudden the demands are higher.
I just don't think it's a viable strategy as it would cost much more than its worth. You'll have to take risk on some players in the $10-30m range that aren't rated by absolutely everyone, at the lower to mid part of their 20s, but that have a chance to really step up and turn out to be top players.
Yeah you make good points. So, I'm at a loss! We're fecked.
Pretty much only 2 options.
1: Ralf sticks with his tactics and drops anyone who is resistant to the change, even if it means playing kids.
2: Switch to a 4 2 3 1 or 4 3 3 and admit defeat in regards to the 4 2 2 2.
As it stands its hard to see where the club goes from here. Issues will compound, if the players continue to feel disillusioned performances will continue to be bad, we will not qualify for champs league. Then have a summer where 5-6 first team players maybe more will leave. We wont have the lure of champs league, we won't be able to strengthen the squad fully as we will have to replace so many players, taking us a few more steps back. Then you'll potentially have a DoF who the players don't trust, recruiting a new manager. Its actually quite impressive how much we have messed this up.
1: Ralf sticks with his tactics and drops anyone who is resistant to the change, even if it means playing kids.
2: Switch to a 4 2 3 1 or 4 3 3 and admit defeat in regards to the 4 2 2 2.
As it stands its hard to see where the club goes from here. Issues will compound, if the players continue to feel disillusioned performances will continue to be bad, we will not qualify for champs league. Then have a summer where 5-6 first team players maybe more will leave. We wont have the lure of champs league, we won't be able to strengthen the squad fully as we will have to replace so many players, taking us a few more steps back. Then you'll potentially have a DoF who the players don't trust, recruiting a new manager. Its actually quite impressive how much we have messed this up.
Do you honestly believe they won't try to keep them as long as they can ?
I like this idea.
Rangnick has to be backed.
How about he actually tries and not just strolls about?
For half a million a week I would expect (even demand) much better performances from him.
Pogba? Another who just strools about and only does something when he feels like it.
Bin them both and replace with players who actually work their bollocks off.
He’s a centre forward not a box to box midfielder. Messi strolls around the pitch, so does Mbappé, haaland, lewandowski, Kane, Toni Kroos.. need I go on?
You deserve mctominay. Let’s fill the team with talentless passion merchants.
What a stupid overreaction.
100% we need to back this man for the next 2 years, it’s the only way we sort out these over paid, over hyped childish players. And put a structure in place for the whole club.
Can you forward this in an email to Arnold and Glazer please.
I say. Like you say. It was Furgerson who won. But, times have changed. There is no more two years building stuff. There is only short term result. We truly belive that and our actions show that — becouse we sack the manager if we loose 8 out of 12 games. Dont listen to what people say, see what they do. So, if that is the game, lets play it.
This means:
1. new managers get 25 games to prove them self. If they dont avarage >2.0 point per game on the last 15 they are sacked. If the manager get passed the first 25 games, he will be sacked if he run into a slump where he avarges 1,7 points over a 10 game period. He must avarage >2.0 at any given 50 game period.
2.We sell all players who have not played more than 5 of the last 30 games, regardless of potential
3. we set a maxmimum on 25 players in the squad. No manager should have the luxury to not prioritize to get a new toy.
4. we are willing to pay to get rid. In fact we should take pride in it.
5. we shut down the academy and focus all our resources and energy on the 25 man squad.
6. we only buy players with outstanding stats from top leauges and who are in their prime. No more buying «potential».
7. we stop all loans, either you are good enough or you are not here. These loans take to much focus and energy..
8. we invest yearly twice as much as any other club in machine learning and sport sceience
9. any player who cant run 11 500 meters in 45 minutes, take a 15 min break, and run 13 000 meters back within 50 minutes - will not get a start for the club.
10. we sell any player with an 20 game avarage < 6,5 @sofascore
11. we make a roof we can pull over when it rain’s at Old Trafford
Thats all we need to do
This means:
1. new managers get 25 games to prove them self. If they dont avarage >2.0 point per game on the last 15 they are sacked. If the manager get passed the first 25 games, he will be sacked if he run into a slump where he avarges 1,7 points over a 10 game period. He must avarage >2.0 at any given 50 game period.
2.We sell all players who have not played more than 5 of the last 30 games, regardless of potential
3. we set a maxmimum on 25 players in the squad. No manager should have the luxury to not prioritize to get a new toy.
4. we are willing to pay to get rid. In fact we should take pride in it.
5. we shut down the academy and focus all our resources and energy on the 25 man squad.
6. we only buy players with outstanding stats from top leauges and who are in their prime. No more buying «potential».
7. we stop all loans, either you are good enough or you are not here. These loans take to much focus and energy..
8. we invest yearly twice as much as any other club in machine learning and sport sceience
9. any player who cant run 11 500 meters in 45 minutes, take a 15 min break, and run 13 000 meters back within 50 minutes - will not get a start for the club.
10. we sell any player with an 20 game avarage < 6,5 @sofascore
11. we make a roof we can pull over when it rain’s at Old Trafford
Thats all we need to do
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what do we actually do next - hope rangnick gets the team playing better with more time on training pitch. hope rangnick is working on his replacement. keep looking at players that can improve the squad. depending on who we want to bring in as manager, they will probably want to move some players on in summer if possible, like ronaldo if they want a high press style. hopefully it turns around. we have a good squad and good players. performances are down to the manager, and some % down to not having players suited to the style, or having any quality in centre mid at all. the manager needs to improve them and he has the experience to improve them so hopefully we see it soon. not the ideal manager for a 6 month stint but if he makes the right appointment next and has a plan for signings and outgoings going into the summer maybe it will be worth it.
This thread needs a bump. Situation has got worst, now looking like we won’t even get top 6.
No European football, no money for transfers, some of our best players leaving for free this season (Greenwood and Pogba). Stuck with Ronaldo.
Where do we go from here at end of season?
No European football, no money for transfers, some of our best players leaving for free this season (Greenwood and Pogba). Stuck with Ronaldo.
Where do we go from here at end of season?
Made this post back in January, I said the situation was dire back then...now it's just hopeless. What's worse, Liverpool are on course for the quadruple, meanwhile we are quite literally crumbling!
This great club is finished, I don't see a way back. Get Ten Hag, get Poch, get the 2nd coming of Jesus, it won't matter. Hopeless.
This great club is finished, I don't see a way back. Get Ten Hag, get Poch, get the 2nd coming of Jesus, it won't matter. Hopeless.
Next manager has to right.
I think it’s going to be a long while before we see any progress. Everyone has this long list of players they want rid but it’s obvious that thanks to the crazy wages we are going to struggle to get most players away. Get the manager right and we can be somewhere in 2-3 years
Thought we looked very positive first 20mins of second half. Their fans were rattled about them losing control.
Their third goal comes against the the play of the game imho, but not unusual for us to do yet another positioning error.
AWB very positive on lb, muted Salah most of the time and not at fault for the 4th goal.
He should probably play out the season on lb with Dalot on RB.
Not rely on him for lb next season, but he can be back-up.
Could potentially sell Telles if the right offer comes in, and get a new rb.
Sancho very positive after he came on, his plays with Elanga gave me hope.
I feel like there's a lot to work with here for the right manager.
We need to bring in 1-2 younger midfielders, maybe just 1 if we can start playing Hannibal some more games next season.
Then we need another CF that can either take over as the main for Ronaldo, or at least 1 season in his shadow. Wingers we can manage until next summer if needed.
Maguire should probably be relieved of the captain pressure, but should get a season under ten hag to prove himself. If we are selling Bailly etc we need a backup. But a new cb in to rotate with lindelöf, varane and maguire depending on form and not being guaranteed starters.
Their third goal comes against the the play of the game imho, but not unusual for us to do yet another positioning error.
AWB very positive on lb, muted Salah most of the time and not at fault for the 4th goal.
He should probably play out the season on lb with Dalot on RB.
Not rely on him for lb next season, but he can be back-up.
Could potentially sell Telles if the right offer comes in, and get a new rb.
Sancho very positive after he came on, his plays with Elanga gave me hope.
I feel like there's a lot to work with here for the right manager.
We need to bring in 1-2 younger midfielders, maybe just 1 if we can start playing Hannibal some more games next season.
Then we need another CF that can either take over as the main for Ronaldo, or at least 1 season in his shadow. Wingers we can manage until next summer if needed.
Maguire should probably be relieved of the captain pressure, but should get a season under ten hag to prove himself. If we are selling Bailly etc we need a backup. But a new cb in to rotate with lindelöf, varane and maguire depending on form and not being guaranteed starters.
I feel your pain, but Liverpool went from this feeling after being beat 6-1 away at Stoke City, and Rodgers getting the sack, to where they are now. There's a way out of this, no matter how bad it seems.
Liverpool are at the peak right now, I think they're odds on for the quad this season now. Right now is the absolute worst time to be a United fan, just as 1992-2013 was torture for Liverpool, Leeds and whoever else has a bone to pick with us. 20 years of mediocrity while we dominated. We'll likely not see that again, but the beauty of sport is that nothing lasts forever.
Tonight you watch a team at their absolute pinnacle, playing a team at their all-time low. It won't stay that way. A season or two is a long time, it can only be up from here. Liverpool are having their moment, we have to suck it up for now. City are doing their thing too, and it's horrible to see.
We just have to hang in there, we'll have our day in the sun again. I promise you that.
Your words hit home and I’m clinging on to them. But they only thing is if they win the quad they’ll out do our greatest ever season and that kills me. It won’t be unprecedented anymore and literally apart from 20 we had the treble
That will be a dark day for us, but what do you think drove SAF and the team, season in, season out? He wanted to knock Liverpool "off their f**king perch".
Football is nothing without competition, without the fans, without the rivalry, and no matter how hard City try, Man Utd vs Liverpool will always be the tie that makes both sets of fans uneasy.
Maybe it needs to get this bad to kick us out of this slumber we've been in. Right now, we're drifting and it's horrible to see.
Our squad building is a mess, but it's how it goes when you let several different managers choose freely. Nail on the head here:
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Ten Hag is the last hope, if he fails, just cancel this football club and turn it into a merchandise store to sell shirts.
I bet Glazers will actually like this idea and put it into consideration if they heard it.
I bet Glazers will actually like this idea and put it into consideration if they heard it.
I don't know where we go now. I don't envy Ten Hag in having the responsibility to sort this pile of shit. We need at least a dozen players sold and replaced. Even then, we have owners who don't care and a board that is incompetent. We need root and branch change at the club. We have lost our identity and are just drifting.
Onto the next manager. Trial and error until it clicks. It’s happened before at United.
You would have loved us when we got relegated