I was doing the same thing people did with Zidane, Ancelotti is clearly a great manager.
Where does Ancelotti rank among all time great managers?
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His league record will always be a bit of an elephant in the room despite his UCL exploits. 5 in 19 years (at clubs where there was a chance to win, 21 if you felt Napoli stood a chance) isn't great (when compared to the likes of Mou, Pep, Fergie etc), even if those 5 allowed him to do the grand slam. Pep at those clubs would have probably had around 13 and it would have been played down because "anyone can do it at Milan/Chelsea/Bayern/Real/PSG".
That's not to say he isn't a great manager all in all because he quite clearly is but I think the league record puts him slightly behind the likes of Pep and prime Mou who themselves are behind Fergie. In a domestic setting I'd rate Conte higher but obviously Carlo pisses all over him on the continent.
That's not to say he isn't a great manager all in all because he quite clearly is but I think the league record puts him slightly behind the likes of Pep and prime Mou who themselves are behind Fergie. In a domestic setting I'd rate Conte higher but obviously Carlo pisses all over him on the continent.
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At least Top 15, maybe top 10 of coaches of all time (which is good).
Anyhow, this text were Carlo Ancelotti tells about his greatest influence Niels Liedholm and is a really nice read:
Ancelotti On His Greatest Influences In Football (evertonfc.com)
Anyhow, this text were Carlo Ancelotti tells about his greatest influence Niels Liedholm and is a really nice read:
Ancelotti On His Greatest Influences In Football (evertonfc.com)
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So long as you keep winning the CL who cares about the league.
The only reason he got sacked by Madrid the first time was that Barcelona won the treble.
His European record is simply the best. His league record when you look at the clubs he's managed and players he's worked with leaves a fair bit to be desired. He's yet to win consecutive league titles in his career although there's a fair chance he would have won back to back leagues at Bayern.
Excellent post.
He is among the very best. His CL record more than makes up for his league record (5 league titles in 5 different countries is still impressive).
I think Real won 22 consecutive matches in all competitions in the middle of that season. It's safe to say that the many of the players were not exactly thrilled that he was replaced with Benitez that summer ! From Barca's perspective, they beat insanely strong competition domestically and in Europe to win that treble.
It terms of his legacy, the biggest 'hole' on his CV (if one even exists) is winning just 1 Serie A title in about 10 years with Juve / Milan. but I think his CL record is more than enough to make up for that. I'd probably still rank Mourinho just above him (obviously with Fergie well clear in 1st place), but it is close.
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SAF's amount of PL wins isn't impressive to you?
It's impressive in a national perspective. CL is the best of best.
I think that the various CL matches against Bayern highlighted a notable difference between Real under Mourinho and Real under Ancelotti (and also under Zidane). That's not to say that Mourinho was a failure or anything though, and the club definitely improved a lot under him.
Real were easily the best team in the Europe in 2011/2012, and after Ozil's equaliser in Munich, they sat back and were clearly happy to settle for a draw. While to be fair a draw would have been decent result, that approach proved to be costly with Bayern scoring a late winner in that 1st leg and ultimately going through. Under Ancelotti (or Zidane) after equalising in Munich, Real would have instead felt that Bayern were on the ropes and pressed for a winner.
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While there's probably a tiny bit of truth to it, I think the whole league record is such a lame argument. The Serie A was literally rigged and fixed during a lot of his time there, it's simply not really possible to give a fair verdict. And he still got plenty of good or decent league campaigns with 2nd places and stuff, it's not like he's very often completely mismanaged teams leading to atrocious league campaings, or had a lot of those full blown meltdowns leaving everything in shambles like Mr. Mourinho has had a couple of times.
Don't Real also have the unwritten rule that a manager is simply always sacked after a season with no major trophies? Which was the case that year. I think it's been like that even before the Beenhakker days, though there might be an exception or two throughout the years.
The type of manager I'd want to play under: trusts his players, not a nerd.
100% correct. Mourinho added a street thug spirit in our team that was lost since 2003, when we decided to go all-out on the Galactico route. Los Galacticos could never have produced a defensive performance like yesterday.
Tier 1: Herrera, Michels, SAF, Cruyff, Pep, etc
Tier 2: ANCELOTTI, Del Bosque, Trappatoni, Mourinho, etc.
Tier 3: Zidane, Klopp, Wenger, etc.
Tier 2: ANCELOTTI, Del Bosque, Trappatoni, Mourinho, etc.
Tier 3: Zidane, Klopp, Wenger, etc.
He's been managing club since mid 90's clearly competitor for SAF in regard of longevity, and just like SAF he's never stuck into one system.
You think Ralf will succeed with this Madrid's team??
Unfair to put Klopp into tier 3 alongside Wenger and Zidane. Have you seen where were Liverpool when he took over??
I would be interested to read his book on manager tips if he ever writes one, seems to so seamlessly control the locker room and put his players at ease making them play at their best.
Has a lot of character.
Has a lot of character.
while you’re not wrong on Serie A, the level of corruption there also works against him. He spent two full seasons with the single most corrupt, match fixing institution and didn’t win the league. That is absolutely awful whichever way you look at it.
Carlo is obviously brilliant, but saying he’s held back by his domestic record is absolutely fair. Not winning the league with the turn of the millennium Juventus with Moggi’s “influence” is undeniably a major failure.
He's the Italian master I've always read about, but now I'm watching it in real time.
Where would you put Arrigo Sacchi? He certainly was better than Jose.
You are new to football i think
Isn't this his first League&CL double?
I've always felt like if you win the CL without winning your league, it takes a little bit of the shine off it. So for me, this season probably proves him to be a better manager than I thought - and I did rate him highly before.
I've always felt like if you win the CL without winning your league, it takes a little bit of the shine off it. So for me, this season probably proves him to be a better manager than I thought - and I did rate him highly before.
100% this.
And Clough and Sir Matt.
Respectfully disagree … I’d have him a tier below Mourinho … Mourinho has done it across multiple leagues versus Sacchi who had a brief peak managing the Chelsea of his time. Sacchi’s famed pressing style also deteriorated in his final years and he was unable to replicate style or success with either Italy or Atletico.
Clough won it twice as did Sacchi. But that team at Milan was unbelievable. I saw them take apart Real Madrid. It was brutal. Carlo scored a beautiful goal too.
Top10 of all time.
Busby, Herrera, Michels, Paisley, Sacchi, Cruyff, Ferguson, Ancelotti, Del Bosque, Pep (I'd place Mou in the Top11-15, with Clough, Zidane,etc).
UCL titles record, winner of all Big 5 Leagues; also, this UCL 2022 is an special achievement: beating the PL's Top3 (including the defending UCL champions-Chelsea- and a state-backed oil club-City) and another oil club (PSG).
Carlo will never get enough credit for this season: a Liga/UCL double, winning the UCL during the era of City/Bayern/PSG.
I don't know what will happen to Madrid next (they haven't signed Haaland, nor Mbappé, and Carlo isn't known for long spells at any club-after his stint at AC), but 2021-22 is easily one of Madrid's Top5 seasons ever.
Busby, Herrera, Michels, Paisley, Sacchi, Cruyff, Ferguson, Ancelotti, Del Bosque, Pep (I'd place Mou in the Top11-15, with Clough, Zidane,etc).
UCL titles record, winner of all Big 5 Leagues; also, this UCL 2022 is an special achievement: beating the PL's Top3 (including the defending UCL champions-Chelsea- and a state-backed oil club-City) and another oil club (PSG).
Carlo will never get enough credit for this season: a Liga/UCL double, winning the UCL during the era of City/Bayern/PSG.
I don't know what will happen to Madrid next (they haven't signed Haaland, nor Mbappé, and Carlo isn't known for long spells at any club-after his stint at AC), but 2021-22 is easily one of Madrid's Top5 seasons ever.
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That's obviously exactly my point
While I understand your 'logic', surely you realise how flawed the argument you're making here truly is? It's literally impossible to judge for us outsiders what exactly went on, there was lots of corruption by various clubs. But because Juventus were deemed to be the most corrupt years later which is questionable on itself - and again is impossible for us outsiders to correctly judge because of all the cheating and corruption - Ancelotti has failed awfully.
Because he finished 2nd, one point behind Lazio who were also heavily implicated and initially relegated to Serie B for their involvement years later? That makes no logical sense at all. That Seria A period is just a clusterfeck where you can't really give a fair opinion I think.
I would say the fact that he spent 10 years at two Italian elite clubs and only won 1 league title, during a time where the Seria A was corrupt is bizarre.
But then outside of Italy he doesn't struggle half as much winning league titles in leagues that weren't as corrupt or fixed. If that's not telling you anything, then I don't know what does.
And obviously the whole debate about his league records stems from the fact that he was at Juve and AC Milan for 10 years and only won one Scudetto, because if we ignore that period nobody would call him a particularly bad league manager
Milan won 1 single Serie A between 97-02 prior to Ancelotti's first full season for them (They won it in 99 thanks to Lazio tiring themselves with the CWC). Milan never existed in the CL in the 7 years preceding Ancelotti... Suggesting it was as easy to win Serie A for Milan back then as it is to win for City or Bayern in 2010-2020 is insane. When Ancelotti takes over at Milan, there are 4 Italian clubs in Uefa's top 10 ranking and Milan is not one of them. And the then champions (Roma) are not among them either... After Calciopoli, he never had a shot at winning the League, Roma was the only team in a position to disturb Inter's domination then... Only winning the treble ended the hunger at Inter and the competition came back as they went down.
This is such a soft WUM attempt.
There is always going to be some debate on adjacent tiers: Tier 1 vs 2 or Tier 2 vs 3.
I’m just looking at their overall impact on the game, club and trophies. Very hard to be perfectly objective.
What is the WUM? Is it Klopp? Why is he better than Wenger?
It’s a cup competition that doesn’t even adhere to its name.
Definitely in the top 5. I'd put Fergie, Mourinho and Pep above him but that's it.
I would note that as far as I can tell AC Milan have only won consecutive Serie A titles once in their entire history (3 consecutive titles in the late 80s). Real Madrid haven't won consecutive league titles a single time during Florentino Perez's presidency (and only once in the 21st century), and Chelsea have only won consecutive PL titles once in their history (the 2 Mourinho won in his first stint).
He's not necessarily underperforming relative to other managers, but you could argue that in the league he can't elevate the club.
agree 100%
One of the very best. What stands out the most is his longevity, he's been a manager for 30 years, over 20 of those at the highest level, there arent many managers who stayed at the top for that long. We talk a lot about Pep, Klopp or Zidane but those guys are babies compared to Ancelotti. Also, all the other great managers have their share of haters, I dont think there are many people who hate Ancelotti, he seems to be liked and respected by pretty much everyone, fans, players and fellow coaches, and for good reasons, he's always been a class act.
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This made me sad, wish we had snatched him up after Fergie
Ancelotti > Klopp