Where does Ancelotti rank among all time great managers?

[Coy Keane]

He's a tier below Fergie, but I rate him more highly than Mourinho and Klopp. The latter still has time to overtake him, but I don't see Mourinho improving his legacy much.

Pep and Ancelotti are practically neck-and-neck as far as legacy goes. Pep is younger and more decorated overall, but 4 CL's + winning all the top 5 leagues is too impressive to ignore. I also think Pep has been more fortunate with his players and clubs.

 

[tomaldinho1]

You'd have to think football was invented 5-6 years ago if you didn't already consider him one of the greatest of all time

Yeah this. His Bayern stint was a mixed bag but he’s otherwise just been stellar wherever he’s been.

 

[Dancfc]

While there's probably a tiny bit of truth to it, I think the whole league record is such a lame argument. The Serie A was literally rigged and fixed during a lot of his time there, it's simply not really possible to give a fair verdict. And he still got plenty of good or decent league campaigns with 2nd places and stuff, it's not like he's very often completely mismanaged teams leading to atrocious league campaings, or had a lot of those full blown meltdowns leaving everything in shambles like Mr. Mourinho has had a couple of times.

Maybe but when we're discussing him in the context of the greatest managers then I think it's worth discussing that he's significantly worse off in league football compared to the likes of Mou, Fergie and Pep, even if you take out his Milan stint. It is also worth mentioning that he blew it at Paris and was looking very likely to do the same with Bayern, two things that these days get registered as minimum requirements more than achievements.

I hate to be too picky as I love him as a man manager and think he is great overall as said in my prior post (I wouldn't even mind him returning if Tuchel* leaving us and him leaving Madrid coincide, especially if the likes of Reece/Mount/Kai are entering prime age) but sustaining domestic dominance is something he's still got it all to prove in.

*in an ideal world Tuchel stays with us for the best part of a decade but this is football a lot can happen.

 

[adexkola]

He's a tier below Fergie, but I rate him more highly than Mourinho and Klopp. The latter still has time to overtake him, but I don't see Mourinho improving his legacy much.

Pep and Ancelotti are practically neck-and-neck as far as legacy goes. Pep is younger and more decorated overall, but 4 CL's + winning all the top 5 leagues is too impressive to ignore. I also think Pep has been more fortunate with his players and clubs.

Yeah Ancelotti, he's had to work up from the bottom with those threadbare squads

 

[Idxomer]

Yeah this. His Bayern stint was a mixed bag but he’s otherwise just been stellar wherever he’s been.

He hasn't been stellar in Bayern, Juve, Napoli or Everton which is why it's difficult sometimes to put him in the absolute top tier of managers.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Ancelotti is a weird one in that I can see and agree with him being both over rated and under rated at the same time. Truth is, his record speaks for itself. Real Madrid had absolutely no business getting past PSG, never mind Chelsea, City and Liverpool yet there they stand the most undeserving yet deserving champions league winner I've ever seen

 

[Tap]

It's Madrid, not the managers.

Not really, Real were in the dumps in the mid 2000s, were knocked out in the round of 16 in the CL many years in a row and they had hired plenty of managers at that time.

 

[Tap]

Yeah Ancelotti, he's had to work up from the bottom with those threadbare squads

But he’s not as fortunate as Pep either, having the luxury to work with well stacked clubs everywhere he goes.

 

[adexkola]

But he’s not as fortunate as Pep either, having the luxury to work with well stacked clubs everywhere he goes.

AC Milan (peak Milan in case anyone is wondering(
Chelsea
PSG
Bayern
Real Madrid (twice)

These clubs were not stacked?

 

[Suedesi]

It's Madrid, not the managers.

Considering he won 2 as a player with Milan, 2 as a manager with Milan and 2 with Madrid, I''d say it's Carlo -
The man know what it takes to win the Big Ears

 

[Swordsman]

It's Madrid, not the managers.

manager is important too. if not any tom, dick and harry can manage real madrid and deliver trophies ?

 

[DJ_21]

Seems a weird journey he’s recently been on… managers who get sacked from Everton don’t then get a job at Madrid. He’s lucky in the sense he’s a big name and Everton could of ruined his reputation but luckily Madrid gave him a chance and he repaid them.

 

[Matt007a]

He’s not a squad builder. I don’t think he can do what Fergie did with Aberdeen or United, or maybe even what Klopp has done for Liverpool.

What he can do though is take a squad that’s on the cusp and take them over the line. There are few better at managing egos and man management. That is a skill in itself and id say he’s one of the greatest in that regard. He’s also a serial winner who doesn’t bottle the finals.

 

[Lash]

He hasn't been stellar in Bayern, Juve, Napoli or Everton which is why it's difficult sometimes to put him in the absolute top tier of managers.

He's done a good job wherever he's gone and on top of that done an excellent job in the roles where he's won silverware. He's got a record no one can match across all the leagues and in the CL.

 

[Moby]

I would have rated him very highly had he not bottled the 2005 CL final. No way any team as strong as that Milan one should be losing that.

Also while he has won individual league seasons in all top 5 leagues he has been a bit of a journeyman and hasn't built a dynasty at one club - Milan was his best project but they didn't do as well in Serie A as they did in UCL (plus they were match fixing). When it comes to the greatest managers you usually have a legacy at one of two clubs that is ingrained in the history of those clubs and a part of their culture. Even at Milan, it will also be someone like Sacchi who will be considered the most influential coach they ever had. Other GOAT coaches had massive influences in shaping some of the biggest clubs: Ferguson, Busby (United), Shankly, Paisley (Liverpool), Cruyff (Barca), Pep (Barca, Man City) and so on. So great overall career but it's hard to put him alongside some of the most influential figures.

 

[frostbite]

At the very top. Winner. Record-man.

And a nice guy too. Class!

 

[GuybrushThreepwood]

Back to back European Cups / Champions League wins as a player including scoring a stunner in the 1989 semi-final, followed by a record 4 wins as a manager. What an overall footballing career, and record in this competition ! Mastering club football as both a player and manager must be incredibly special.

In terms of Istanbul in 2005, didn't Milan basically resume their dominance of the match from 3-3, with Dudek making a series of importance saves? My memory is pretty hazy there. Though IIRC Milan were pretty lucky to reach that final in the first place, as PSV completely outplayed them over the 2 legs in their semi-final. For whatever season, I don't remember much about the 2007 re-match at all, but Milan definitely had a consistent CL record from 2003-2007. During their 2003 run, the fact that they went through on away goals after 2 draws in their semi-final against Inter was funny, with both games of course taking place in the same stadium. I think that they had impressive wins over Bayern, Depor and Real in the 2 group stages.

Anyway as others have such, he comes across as such a likeable guy (the fact that he has been a top level manager for so long and has so few 'bust ups' is very telling), so I'm delighted to see him continuing to add to his legacy and win big trophies.

 

[phelans shorts]

Seems a weird journey he’s recently been on… managers who get sacked from Everton don’t then get a job at Madrid. He’s lucky in the sense he’s a big name and Everton could of ruined his reputation but luckily Madrid gave him a chance and he repaid them.

Everton didn’t sack him? He quit, because Real offered him the job.

 

[TenonTen]

Carlo genuinely has the perfect personality for a manager. So calm, mature and composed yet has so much authority and character. When he talks, you listen. He's a proper big club manager.

Tier 1: Herrera, Michels, SAF, Cruyff, Pep, etc
Tier 2: ANCELOTTI, Del Bosque, Trappatoni, Mourinho, etc.
Tier 3: Zidane, Klopp, Wenger, etc.

Mourinho should be in the first bracket. His CV is still absolutely remarkable.

 

[Raees]

I would have rated him very highly had he not bottled the 2005 CL final. No way any team as strong as that Milan one should be losing that.

Also while he has won individual league seasons in all top 5 leagues he has been a bit of a journeyman and hasn't built a dynasty at one club - Milan was his best project but they didn't do as well in Serie A as they did in UCL (plus they were match fixing). When it comes to the greatest managers you usually have a legacy at one of two clubs that is ingrained in the history of those clubs and a part of their culture. Even at Milan, it will also be someone like Sacchi who will be considered the most influential coach they ever had. Other GOAT coaches had massive influences in shaping some of the biggest clubs: Ferguson, Busby (United), Shankly, Paisley (Liverpool), Cruyff (Barca), Pep (Barca, Man City) and so on. So great overall career but it's hard to put him alongside some of the most influential figures.

Think he's done more than enough to prove that Istanbul result was nothing more than a freak result

 

[Kramer]

Was better at Milan though. Did a good job at Chelsea. A good job at PSG. Nearly made the CL final 23 years ago even only for some Roy Keane heroics in Turin.

Not to mention his AC Milan side led a CL final 3-0. Only to lose to a pool comeback.

Could have had 5 CLs.

 

[pacifictheme]

I wouldn't want him at Man United so I can't say I rate him that much. Would take many managers over him

Real Madrid as a squad are just a winning machine I don't think its down to him

He would have been my first choice to replace fergie and every manager we have binned since. Think he's brilliant.

 

[Andrade]

A few people here putting him in the second tier. Cannot be correct. He has to be in the first tier just by virtue of having won more European Cups than anyone else and having won European Cups with two different clubs. I don't think people have the slightest conception of how difficult that is if they think he belongs in some second tier.

You can pick holes in his resume for sure but you can do that with any manager, even the great SAF..

There's managers I'd rank ahead of Carlo but not many. He's definitely one of the greatest of all time.

 

[Bole Top]

after this, tier 1 easily. not even a debate.

 

[Wonder Pigeon]

Ancelotti is basically the platonic ideal of a Real Madrid manager; an ex-player with winning pedigree who plays decent ball, keeps the players happy and doesn't hold a grudge when he gets sacked. Tacticians with something to prove are never going to fare as well there.

 

[adexkola]

Think he's done more than enough to prove that Istanbul result was nothing more than a freak result

Deportivo the year before.

 

[VidaRed]

Exactly this. Though just as Guardiola, Klopp, Mourinho et al, you need the players and the infrastructure to support you to win at highets level.

Anyone manager who can win the league or CL with our current squad will truly be a top class manager.

We should have pep and klopp manager us for a season each to judge who is better

 

[MUW4Eva]

Out of interest, where are people putting someone like Carlos Bianchi??

A very good player himself, then turned excellent manager.

 

[haru krentz]

There is always going to be some debate on adjacent tiers: Tier 1 vs 2 or Tier 2 vs 3.
I’m just looking at their overall impact on the game, club and trophies. Very hard to be perfectly objective.

Well when it comes to Jurgen Klopp i think you need to look at what kind of clubs hes been taking over as fair consideration. Dortmund was on the verge of bankruptcy, Liverpool was a big joke (got beaten 1-6 by bloody Stoke for example) both were sleeping giants but without extra money to spend and Klopp managed to turn them around not only domestically wise but also in europe.

 

[Pintu]

Deportivo the year before.

With VAR they'd have destroyed Deportivo 9-0 in the first leg (so many fake offsides against Sheva)... But yes the focus on the league was a very poor attempt at an excuse for that shamble in the second leg. Reminiscent of Pep's City bottling to the likes of Lyon (Even though Deportivo held a higher standard).

 

[GuybrushThreepwood]

From memory Milan seemed very cocky after winning that 1st leg against Depor 4-1, and looked as if they thought it was job done. They topped their group scoring just 4 goals, which was quite something.

 

[abundance]

Not to mention his AC Milan side led a CL final 3-0. Only to lose to a pool comeback.

Could have had 5 CLs.

That undeserved loss balances out that very tight 2003 run though, with one single win in five matches in the KO stage .)

0-0 away and 3-2 home versus Ajax in the QF, scoring the winner at 92'

0-0 and 1-1 versus Inter in the semis, with Inter missing a couple sitters in the last mins and Milan progressing on away goals after two matches in the very same stadium

Super dull 0-0 vs Juve in the final.

 

[Red the Bear]

Back to back European Cups / Champions League wins as a player including scoring a stunner in the 1989 semi-final, followed by a record 4 wins as a manager. What an overall footballing career, and record in this competition ! Mastering club football as both a player and manager must be incredibly special.

In terms of Istanbul in 2005, didn't Milan basically resume their dominance of the match from 3-3, with Dudek making a series of importance saves? My memory is pretty hazy there. Though IIRC Milan were pretty lucky to reach that final in the first place, as PSV completely outplayed them over the 2 legs in their semi-final. For whatever season, I don't remember much about the 2007 re-match at all, but Milan definitely had a consistent CL record from 2003-2007. During their 2003 run, the fact that they went through on away goals after 2 draws in their semi-final against Inter was funny, with both games of course taking place in the same stadium. I think that they had impressive wins over Bayern, Depor and Real in the 2 group stages.

Anyway as others have such, he comes across as such a likeable guy (the fact that he has been a top level manager for so long and has so few 'bust ups' is very telling), so I'm delighted to see him continuing to add to his legacy and win big trophies.

I always got the impression that he solely targeted the Champions League title in Milan especially later on, which kinda made sense considering their age, looking at the table from 2005/6 to 2006/7 he barely made the Champions League spot as well coming in fourth with a rather measly 61 point finish.

That approach obviously paide dividends with 3 finals and 2 title two their named but it screwed them long term as when his time came they were left with an old decrepit team incapable of competing anywhere though thats mostly Berlusconi's fault not his.

Apt to mention that the only time that they had to fight for the league as well as the Champions League till the last days was in 2004/5 and they were clearly exhausted at the time of the final, shows you how hard it is to do both especially if you're being pushed in the league.

Anyway I always thought that ironically his best side lost out in that final as they came pretty close in the league as well, 2003 and 2007 they were blown away in the league so by no means the best in Europe.

 

[André Dominguez]

4 Champions League titles on the CV. Case closed.

 

[GuybrushThreepwood]

I always got the impression that he solely targeted the Champions League title in Milan especially later on, which kinda made sense considering their age, looking at the table from 2005/6 to 2006/7 he barely made the Champions League spot as well coming in fourth with a rather measly 61 point finish.

That approach obviously paide dividends with 3 finals and 2 title two their named but it screwed them long term as when his time came they were left with an old decrepit team incapable of competing anywhere though thats mostly Berlusconi's fault not his.

Apt to mention that the only time that they had to fight for the league as well as the Champions League till the last days was in 2004/5 and they were clearly exhausted at the time of the final, shows you how hard it is to do both especially if you're being pushed in the league.

Anyway I always thought that ironically his best side lost out in that final as they came pretty close in the league as well, 2003 and 2007 they were blown away in the league so by no means the best in Europe.

IIRC on the pitch (obviously other factors and big punishments soon came into play), the title races between Capello's Juve and Ancelotti's Milan in 2004/2005 and 2005/2006 were very exciting and high quality. In 2004/2005, the teams were level on points with a few games left and going into a huge title showdown at the San Siro. Juve won it 1-0, and Milan's domestic form then collapsed. In and around that period, they were pretty terrible against PSV in their 2 semi-final matches as well. The first 45 minutes against Liverpool was probably their best performance of the final stretch of that season by a long way, but being in contention to win both the CL and the Scudetto and missing out on both would have stung a lot.

In 2005/2006, they ended the season in outstanding form, winning something like 13 or 14 out of their last 15 or 16 games, narrowing Juve's previously big lead (I think Juve suffered a hangover after their CL exit against Arsenal) significantly, finishing 3 points short with a total that in most seasons would have been good enough to win the title. Of course Juve and Milan both received big punishments and Inter were awarded were that title (it really should have been left vacant like the 2004/2005 one). In their CL semi-final 2nd leg against Barca, a goal from Shevchenko was controversially (to put it mildly) disallowed.

So they were in serious title contention 3 years in a row, but the fallout from Calciopoli and as you said an ageing squad that wasn't sufficiently freshened up ended that.

I remember in 2002/2003 after Milan's impressive performances during the CL 1st and 2nd group stages, there was talk about how they were 'back'.

 

[Kramer]

That undeserved loss balances out that very tight 2003 run though, with one single win in five matches in the KO stage .)

0-0 away and 3-2 home versus Ajax in the QF, scoring the winner at 92'

0-0 and 1-1 versus Inter in the semis, with Inter missing a couple sitters in the last mins and Milan progressing on away goals after two matches in the very same stadium

Super dull 0-0 vs Juve in the final.

Fair enough.

The 2003 final was probably the dullest Champions League final ever played.

 

[ilrm]

Mourinho should be in the first bracket. His CV is still absolutely remarkable.

The way he leaves clubs (divided, angry) after a 3 year cycle should count against him. His resume is great but then that can be argued for any of the Tier 2 guys.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Ok he's now my favourite person ever

 

[Red the Bear]

IIRC on the pitch (obviously other factors and big punishments soon came into play), the title races between Capello's Juve and Ancelotti's Milan in 2004/2005 and 2005/2006 were very exciting and high quality. In 2004/2005, the teams were level on points with a few games left and going into a huge title showdown at the San Siro. Juve won it 1-0, and Milan's domestic form then collapsed. In and around that period, they were pretty terrible against PSV in their 2 semi-final matches as well. The first 45 minutes against Liverpool was probably their best performance of the final stretch of that season by a long way, but being in contention to win both the CL and the Scudetto and missing out on both would have stung a lot.

In 2005/2006, they ended the season in outstanding form, winning something like 13 or 14 out of their last 15 or 16 games, narrowing Juve's previously big lead (I think Juve suffered a hangover after their CL exit against Arsenal) significantly, finishing 3 points short with a total that in most seasons would have been good enough to win the title. Of course Juve and Milan both received big punishments and Inter were awarded were that title (it really should have been left vacant like the 2004/2005 one). In their CL semi-final 2nd leg against Barca, a goal from Shevchenko was controversially (to put it mildly) disallowed.

So they were in serious title contention 3 years in a row, but the fallout from Calciopoli and as you said an ageing squad that wasn't sufficiently freshened up ended that.

I remember in 2002/2003 after Milan's impressive performances during the CL 1st and 2nd group stages, there was talk about how they were 'back'.

Those were some exciting titles races ,especially 2005/6 which I remember very fondly. Those 2 years were probably the best form Milan reached under ancelloti, truly great football but it was never really the same after Calciopoli and then Losing on Shevchenko, but to their credit they did manage to muster one final hurray in 2007 exacting revenge on liverpool(to our expense i might add!).

Overall they were unlucky at times as well, losing concentration against deportivo and suffering a historic comeback against deportivo as a result and the aforementioned ruled out Shevchenko goal(were the whole uefalona debacle really kicked in) but as someone already said it does balance out considering how ridiculous their 2003 run was were they just managed to squeeze past the knockout phase by reaching the final culminating in perhaps the most drab final of all time and being extremely lucky that juve were deprived of their talisman Nedved (who themselves were spanked in the group stages by us but alas our cock up against Madrid precluded us from reaching the finals).

In the end I'll assume Milan fans look back quite fondly of his time with them but it's fair to say that it pales in comparison to their glorious late 80s early 90s era.

 

[ilrm]

Well when it comes to Jurgen Klopp i think you need to look at what kind of clubs hes been taking over as fair consideration. Dortmund was on the verge of bankruptcy, Liverpool was a big joke (got beaten 1-6 by bloody Stoke for example) both were sleeping giants but without extra money to spend and Klopp managed to turn them around not only domestically wise but also in europe.

At the end of the day it was Klopp’s decision to join these teams. It all comes down to style, winning a competitive league and winning the CL/Euro/WC. If Madrid had won 5 consecutive Spanish cups under Zidane, nobody would have talked about him as a potential United manager. If Zidane took over Cadiz and got them to 6th place consistently, nobody would say “Zidane is an all time great because Cadiz are a joke of a team”. Trophies matter, being able to handle teams with massive egos matters.

He rejected Madrid for Liverpool as he needs time to rebuild and needs to be top dog everywhere. Surely his lack of flexibility must count against him.