Where does Cristiano Ronaldo rank amongst the pantheon of greats?

[Pocho]

Ok, but then what about the fact that a top 10 player managed to be the catalyst in his team beating the GOAT to the top club competition in 3 of the past 4 years?

Btw, I rate Messi as the GOAT, but I struggle to see how anyone who rates Messi as the GOAT can only see Ronaldo as a top 10 when Ronaldo is matching Messi in terms of trophies and awards.

Because despite he made tons of goals he wasn´t the main factor in Madrid´s victories. The second part of your question: Again, I don´t believe in awards.

 

[Cal?]

Because despite he made tons of goals he wasn´t the main factor in Madrid´s victories. The second part of your question: Again, I don´t believe in awards.

What??? Madrid would not have made it through a single knockout tie in the CL 2017 if it wasn’t for Ronaldo’s goals

 

[meninred]

Let us differentiate a great player from the greatest.

To be the greatest in simple terms you have to go another stratosphere and do someting different that no player has done.(.like innovation or new formula in science)..with its own signature moment that live long in memory and transcedes generations.

 

[Cal?]

Let us differentiate a great player from the greatest.

To be the greatest in simple terms you have to go another stratosphere and do someting different that no player has done.(.like innovation or new formula in science)..with its own signature moment that live long in memory and transcedes generations.

As in scoring many many more than any other player in the toughest competition of all. The CL knockout stage.

 

[Minimalist]

I don't know if Ronaldo is the best player of all time, but he certainly deserves better than the "Not as good as Messi" summary his career so often receives.

Why? He's in good company.

Messi is the GOAT.

 

[meninred]

As in scoring many many more than any other player in the toughest competition of all. The CL knockout stage.

Yes statistics help in your claim just like it helped pele with 1000 goals and 3 worldcups. however pele also had two signature moments in 1958 and 1970 and maradona had one in 1986 against england.Dont know if messi ..CR7 Ronlado Lima or any other player had that.

 

[SCP]

who has been better than him?
He'll probably wins another couple of Balòn d'Or and CL.

Calm down I was only laughing in a good way regarding the way @Cal? always protects Cristiano.

 

[adexkola]

Why? He's in good company.

Messi is the GOAT.

Yeah I don't understand how "not as good as Messi" has become an insult.

Fantastic brilliant player Ronaldo has been, in his own right. I don't even buy the "lifted himself through sheer determination to be world class"... no. He's been world class, full stop. Talented and all. However in a comparison with Messi he falls short. And all current players today fall short. That's no indictment.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Except they aren't. Long jump, high jump and triple jump records were set 20-30 years ago and top performances have since regressed. Freak outlier Usain Bolt apart, sprint performances have broadly plateaued too with some minor improvements that can, at least, partly be attributed to faster tracks and better starting systems. Most of the middle distance records for the men were set 20-25 years ago as well. You can even go as far back as Seb Coe's 1.41.7 in the 800m way back in 1981 which, for all intents and purposes, hasn't been improved upon to any meaningful extent in almost 40 years.

Obviously how we quantify the impact of drugs within all of that is difficult to say. It would certainly be naive to assume it was just a thing in the 1980s, when every generation has been scandalised at some point. Clearly it's different in other sports such as swimming and tennis where a lot of the fat wasn't chewed off until later on and will continue to do so for some time yet. But the likes of athletics and football where mass participation and wide-scale organisation took place at a far earlier stage now have far less room for improvement.

Aye, fair point. There probably has been some sort of plateau over the last 10-20 years. The human body can only get so highly tuned. Still, though, someone like Pele was supposedly peaking 50-60 years ago! Not a hope that any athletic records from that era are still current today. They’ve all been smashed, many times over.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

For the reasons Messi can be considered G.O.A.T for those same reasons you have to put Cristiano right there behind him. I do not think there has been players with the same sustained excellence those two have.

 

[Revan]

There can be a lot of debate and doubt. We're talking about over 60 years of top level football here. It's not an insult to suggest that Ronaldo may not be a top 10 player, in the history of ever. To say so with 100% confidence is crazy.

Yeah, he probably isn't in top 100, or even top 1000 to be fair. Football has been for more than 150 years, so the joint best player of the era when football was better, faster, with more tactics, better coaching, diet, conditions, doping, you name it, obviously should not be in the list of all time greats. After all, the quality of players decreases over time, as can be shown by every sport when it can be measured

 

[Lennon7]

For the reasons Messi can be considered G.O.A.T for those same reasons you have to put Cristiano right there behind him. I do not think there has been players with the same sustained excellence those two have.

Although I agree Ronaldo is bloody brilliant, I think Messi is a step ahead of anyone we’ve seen in terms of what he can actually do with the ball. A lot of players can do bikey kicks, shoot from anywhere or win most headers, but the way Messi dribbles and the way he has a picture in his head of what’s going to happen before it does is unreal. It’s like he’s a mix of Xavi, Iniesta and Brazilian Ronaldo. Not only that but he can do things that we haven’t even seen before so consistently.

 

[adexkola]

Yeah, he probably isn't in top 100, or even top 1000 to be fair. Football has been for more than 150 years, so the joint best player of the era when football was better, faster, with more tactics, better coaching, diet, conditions, doping, you name it, obviously should not be in the list of all time greats. After all, the quality of players decreases over time, as can be shown by every sport when it can be measured

You got me. I stared at this for a few minutes.

 

[belanglos]

Interesting selections, I'd probably wouldn't have picked them top 5 in their positions let alone top 10 all-time.

lahm not top 5 in his position?!?!?! you gotta explain that to me.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

lahm not top 5 in his position?!?!?! you gotta explain that to me.

Its a close one I think.

Zanetti, Thuram, Cafu, Vogts, Carlos Alberto and Djalma Santos is tough competition. Lahm definitely deserves to be in the conversation with the others but for me its hard to really separate those 7 in a void. Which I prefer would probably come to tactics.

 

[Gio]

Comparing statistics from different eras doesn't make much sense but it will definitely set them apart, especially because their goals are all at a high level while the players above them scored their fair share of goals in competitions which were far from being the best in the world. Being the player who scored the most amount of goals in the history of the sport is no small achievement and we might be 3 or 4 years away from seeing it.

If we are qualifying the Messi/Ronaldo figures with the context of where the goals were scored (mostly Spain and in Europe), then it's only fair to acknowledge they've both played for hugely dominant sides whose resources have vastly outweighed almost all of their opposition. If you look at those above them, perhaps Pele and Puskas can claim the same, but even Muller's Bayern were never as consistently overpowering, falling down to 5th (twice), 6th, 7th and 10th during his time there. And Romario never stuck around long enough to enjoy such a sustained territorial and possession dominance for any real chunk of his career. And we also have to consider the complete absence of any players in the top 15 who peaked in the 1970s/1980s/1990s, which is surely a sign of the times rather than a drop in striking talent. Clearly at this time the best goalscorers were stymied by the more defensive game, the lax refereeing and the greater risk of injury that blighted the careers and longevity of so many greats. It was also a time when the game was more financially competitive across a wider range of teams, leagues and continents, which made it much more challenging to rack up 50-goals seasons for a club stockpiling all the top talent.

 

[reddevil702]

lahm not top 5 in his position?!?!?! you gotta explain that to me.

I can compare him to players I've actually seen play... Cafu, Dani Alves, Zanetti, Roberto Carlos, and Marcelo are 5 I would take over Lahm. Don't get me wrong I'd take Lahm at United in a heartbeat.

 

[Ish]

If we are qualifying the Messi/Ronaldo figures with the context of where the goals were scored (mostly Spain and in Europe), then it's only fair to acknowledge they've both played for hugely dominant sides whose resources have vastly outweighed almost all of their opposition. If you look at those above them, perhaps Pele and Puskas can claim the same, but even Muller's Bayern were never as consistently overpowering, falling down to 5th (twice), 6th, 7th and 10th during his time there. And Romario never stuck around long enough to enjoy such a sustained territorial and possession dominance for any real chunk of his career. And we also have to consider the complete absence of any players in the top 15 who peaked in the 1970s/1980s/1990s, which is surely a sign of the times rather than a drop in striking talent. Clearly at this time the best goalscorers were stymied by the more defensive game, the lax refereeing and the greater risk of injury that blighted the careers and longevity of so many greats. It was also a time when the game was more financially competitive across a wider range of teams, leagues and continents, which made it much more challenging to rack up 50-goals seasons for a club stockpiling all the top talent.

Good post. Context is always important.

 

[Ish]

Top 10 peak. There's an argument for top 5 with his consistency.

This, IMO.

 

[Peyroteo]

If we are qualifying the Messi/Ronaldo figures with the context of where the goals were scored (mostly Spain and in Europe), then it's only fair to acknowledge they've both played for hugely dominant sides whose resources have vastly outweighed almost all of their opposition. If you look at those above them, perhaps Pele and Puskas can claim the same, but even Muller's Bayern were never as consistently overpowering, falling down to 5th (twice), 6th, 7th and 10th during his time there. And Romario never stuck around long enough to enjoy such a sustained territorial and possession dominance for any real chunk of his career. And we also have to consider the complete absence of any players in the top 15 who peaked in the 1970s/1980s/1990s, which is surely a sign of the times rather than a drop in striking talent. Clearly at this time the best goalscorers were stymied by the more defensive game, the lax refereeing and the greater risk of injury that blighted the careers and longevity of so many greats. It was also a time when the game was more financially competitive across a wider range of teams, leagues and continents, which made it much more challenging to rack up 50-goals seasons for a club stockpiling all the top talent.

They'll end up having more goals than pretty much anyone for their countries too so it's not just about the great teams they've been playing in. Not saying this makes them better since you're right that context is what matters, just that from a statistical point of view they'll most likely leave the legends of the past behind and it won't take too long if they continue the way they're going

 

[Synco]

If we are qualifying the Messi/Ronaldo figures with the context of where the goals were scored (mostly Spain and in Europe), then it's only fair to acknowledge they've both played for hugely dominant sides whose resources have vastly outweighed almost all of their opposition. If you look at those above them, perhaps Pele and Puskas can claim the same, but even Muller's Bayern were never as consistently overpowering, falling down to 5th (twice), 6th, 7th and 10th during his time there. And Romario never stuck around long enough to enjoy such a sustained territorial and possession dominance for any real chunk of his career. And we also have to consider the complete absence of any players in the top 15 who peaked in the 1970s/1980s/1990s, which is surely a sign of the times rather than a drop in striking talent. Clearly at this time the best goalscorers were stymied by the more defensive game, the lax refereeing and the greater risk of injury that blighted the careers and longevity of so many greats. It was also a time when the game was more financially competitive across a wider range of teams, leagues and continents, which made it much more challenging to rack up 50-goals seasons for a club stockpiling all the top talent.

Very good post. One remark, though: most of Müller's peak was in the 1970s.

 

[Decomposing In Paris]

Yeah I don't understand how "not as good as Messi" has become an insult.

Fantastic brilliant player Ronaldo has been, in his own right. I don't even buy the "lifted himself through sheer determination to be world class"... no. He's been world class, full stop. Talented and all. However in a comparison with Messi he falls short. And all current players today fall short. That's no indictment.

You're replying to a post that quoted mine, so I'd just like to clarify. I think Messi is possibly the best player to ever play the game. However, I think Ronaldo runs him so close that there's actually a reasonable debate to be had. The are very different players, but rather than people describing Ronaldo as the best player of his type, we often hear about how Messi is better... as though he has fallen short. We should be able to praise either without constantly referencing them both. It's a bit like telling a girl that she's the second best looking girl in the room. It's not an insult (particularly if you happen to be in the room with another really attractive girl), but it's not really a complement either.

 

[Kharhaz]

I suppose the best way to describe Cristiano Ronaldo would be this:

He is the perfection of football, for every one fan who loves him, there will be one who hates him, the club he plays for will be detested by many but adored by others, he is the epitome of todays vanity but also, like many other geniuses before him the epitome of greatness. Both humble and great, adored and detested, he will be rembered for what he brought to peoples life, especially in football, be it hate or love, envy or jealousy, there is no doubt in anyones mind, he is certainly something special.

 

[Theonas]

As things stand:

Tier 0: Pelé, Maradona, Messi ▲
Tier ½: Beckenbauer, Ronaldo ▲, Di Stéfano
Tier 1: Cruyff, Platini, Fenômeno, Puskás

Followed by the likes of Eusébio, Best, Müller, Maldini, Mané Garrincha, Xavi, Baresi, Matthäus and co. in slightly broader tiers.

▲ signifies that Ronaldo and Messi are the only variables on that list - and the only direction their profile could go in the future is up — with the current position on the tier-list being the minimum bar for what they've achieved, thus far.

The reason why I hesitate to put him in Tier 0 is that Cristiano just doesn't really have the air of magic of those three, and he hasn't had that since the early parts of his Madrid career. That isn't some damning criticism because he's pretty freaking imperious in his own right and terrorizes defenses like few others, but there's no getting around the argument that he doesn't quite share their ability to make an impact from seemingly anywhere on the pitch and carry his team outside of his goals with greatest-of-all-time caliber play-making and passing nous and technical flair. In fact, you'd hesitate to put him above Cruyff, Platini and co. as regards his general play as well. In terms of pure wow factor, he's a bit like the Jerome Bettis to their Barry Sanders - which is probably the most consistent criticism of him as a player as regards his historic profile, and he stands out as a glitch in the matrix in the pantheon of greats — almost like Müller on crack.

But his goal contributions are too overwhelming to sweep under the rug at this point, and you'd have to be a bit tone-deaf have to not rank him as probably the greatest European player with Kaizer Beckenbauer. Equally ridiculous is the consistency of performance in terms of tangible impact — one that is matched by only Pelé and Messi, and Puskás - who's oftentimes marginalized in a lot of discussions - even though he started performing at an excellent level for Kispest at a young age, then Honvéd — followed by 4 Piccichi titles and 3 European Cup titles for Madrid after joining the club at age 31, and that's aside from his record for Hungary, and European scorers - which Ronaldo will likely break in the immediate future. On a general note, it's pretty amazing that Cristiano's managed to shamelessly insert himself in the these discussions because for the longest time, it seemed like he would definitely play second fiddle to Messi and Barcelona's dominance across the era and languish on the edge of Top 10 of all time. Speaks volumes about his relentless drive to win, sheer strength of will, and superhuman focus. He's probably THE greatest of all time in that department with Pelé for football, and the likes of Jordan and Brady for sports at large.

Absolutely spot on, as usual I might add. Cristiano Ronaldo's feats are just impossible to ignore but as you say, the lack of that wow factor is always going to be something that leaves people unsure especially when compared against the likes of Messi. I am a bit surprised how highly you rate Puskas but apart from that, you articulate the Ronaldo conundrum perfectly. The man challenges the general idea of how great players usually are which is more of a compliment than a criticism.

 

[Isotope]

You're replying to a post that quoted mine, so I'd just like to clarify. I think Messi is possibly the best player to ever play the game. However, I think Ronaldo runs him so close that there's actually a reasonable debate to be had. The are very different players, but rather than people describing Ronaldo as the best player of his type, we often hear about how Messi is better... as though he has fallen short. We should be able to praise either without constantly referencing them both. It's a bit like telling a girl that she's the second best looking girl in the room. It's not an insult (particularly if you happen to be in the room with another really attractive girl), but it's not really a complement either.

That's the thing, though. A girl may look the prettiest in the room, but some people might prefer another one who has more personality albeit not the prettiest. The one who you might have sweet childhood memories together.

It becomes annoying when some people just 'forcing' you using their criteria of who is the best girl in the room.

 

[Lord SInister]

Stop with hottest chic in the class analogy feckers, I am having flashbacks of all my classmates. Even the not so good looking ones.

 

[BenjaminP]

Who are you exactly, a professional manager/footballer?

I'm a professional FM 2018 manager. Never failed to reach the board's expectations.

 

[GM K]

I believe the GOAT should not just be an incredible player but also a player whose overall influence on the game, in terms of defining, positioning and selling it beyond the football community, is unparralleled. The GOAT must not just be a football star but a sports icon whose influence is far reaching and cross generational. For this reason, my nominee for GOAT is Pele. Just below him, I will have Diego Maradona.

After those two will be Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. But I have a feeling that with time, after they have retired, these two players will displace Pele and Maradona as the two greatest in the game. Not only are they geniuses on the field, their durability and consistency, especially in shattering records, is certainly unmatched.

 

[giorno]

Because despite he made tons of goals he wasn´t the main factor in Madrid´s victories. The second part of your question: Again, I don´t believe in awards.

He wasn't the main factor, but he was a big factor

Just as Pelé wasn't the main factor to santos and brazil successes. Just as Messi isn't the main factor to barcelona's recent successes

It's a team game afterall

In terms of impact on their team success, nobody in the history of football is comparable to Di Stefano and even more so(because world cup>everything else) Maradona

 

[CristianH]

Top 10. Sure.
Maybe top 5... let´s see how he finishes his career.

 

[Mozza]

2nd to Messi

 

[Schneckerl]

Because despite he made tons of goals he wasn´t the main factor in Madrid´s victories. The second part of your question: Again, I don´t believe in awards.

I mean it really isnt arguable that Ronaldo wasn't a top 1-3 in every single season from 2006/07 till now. This unparalleled conistency has to count for something in an AT ranking? Don't think any player in history except Messi has that many seasons as a top 3 player.

 

[giorno]

I mean it really isnt arguable that Ronaldo wasn't a top 1-3 in every single season from 2007/08 till now. This unparalleled conistency has to count for something in an AT ranking? Don't think any player in history except Messi has that many seasons as a top 3 player.

Pelé and Maradona

 

[Schneckerl]

Pelé and Maradona

Check out their seasons in detail again. Neither had that many years were they were among the best 3 performers.

Maradona '79, '80, '81, '85, '86, '87, '88, '90 ?

Alright for Pele it's hard to tell because he played so long ago and SA / European players were split up. Might actually be from 58' - 65' & 67' - 70'.

Anway it's clearly more than Di Stefano, Puskas, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Platini, Zico, Zidane, Ronaldo, Garrincha etc. had

 

[El-Buitre]

As goal scorer probably in the top 3 of all time,as a 'player' he is not in the top 10 imo.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

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