Shaw's one of the best in the league.
AWB midtable.
Dalot and Telles 20. Absolute rubbish. Brandon Williams is better than both.
AWB midtable.
Dalot and Telles 20. Absolute rubbish. Brandon Williams is better than both.
Where would you rank our full-backs in the league?
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Shaw is a top four player, based on his level last season but he is yet to rediscover that form.
Wan-Bissaka is a terrible football player, genuinely not Premier League standard.
Dalot is average at best, would probably get into a lower half side but depending on what type of football they play.
Telles is like Dalot. Average at best and gets into a lower half team depending on their style of football.
Wan-Bissaka is a terrible football player, genuinely not Premier League standard.
Dalot is average at best, would probably get into a lower half side but depending on what type of football they play.
Telles is like Dalot. Average at best and gets into a lower half team depending on their style of football.
Only Shaw can start for a top 4-6 team when he is at his best but this season he has been way below that, probably around mid-table quality, just like the rest of our full-backs who would probably rank in around 10-15th.
Shaw was voted into to the PFA team of the year last season by his fellow pros so it was a valid claim.
Shaw is overrated, definitely not one of the best in the league
Having one good recent season does not make you the best in the league, if you're not consistently having these " good "seasons damn near each year then how can you be rated as " one of the best in the league"?
Having one good recent season does not make you the best in the league, if you're not consistently having these " good "seasons damn near each year then how can you be rated as " one of the best in the league"?
Since Rangnick came in there were only three games that Shaw didn't start when he was fit, and all three were against teams in the relegation zone. Norwich and Newcastle which were the matches directly after he was coming back from the concussions (fit enough to be on the bench, but Telles had done well in his absence), and then later on against Watford where we seemed to rest him after playing against Atletico a few days earlier. Otherwise he started the other nine matches in all competitions that he was actually available.
Rangnick did say that he wasn't sure whether Shaw was still at the right level to be at Utd, but that was a couple of years ago before Shaw had his great season. I do think that there is a fair chance that Rangnick still thinks that we do need a new starting leftback, but he obviously does think that he's the best we've currently got and never dropped him.
Well, amidst all the hysterical responses I think it's worth pointing out that Luke Shaw is currently England's starting LB, and there is serious competition for this position from other top half clubs. It's also worth pointing out that Shaw is one of the few outfield player to have won our PotY award post-SAF, so there's also that.
For me, Shaw isn't an issue - not perfect, but not a major issue to our aspirations to compete for trophies.
Telles I would have to say is very average but again, that doesn't need to be a huge issue if he's just here for back-up. Not many teams have outstanding back-up LBs.
At RB, we have a bit of an issue. The treatment of AWB is (as usual) well over the top, since again, I remind people we did actually finish 2nd and reach the Europa League final with him at RB. Sure, he's never going to be Cafu, or even James or TAA, but he has skills and attributes which those players do not at the same time.
Of course, I'd like to see United have a technically excellent RB, but again, do I believe having AWB in the team is absolutely prohibitive to our chances of competing for a decent league position and a cup next year? Personally, I would say 'no'.
Dalot, I am afraid, is just rubbish in my opinion. I think he retains a bit of support because some of the angry anti-Glazer, pro-Jose fan accounts on Social Media still talk him up as something he isn't but let's just think for a second...the narrative is that 'he's not a great defender but his attacking contribution is good'...which really doesn't play out in any way, shape or form statistically since he literally has like 5 career assists to his name.
Personally, I'd like to see us either sell both and re-invest the money OR I'd like to see ETH show a bit of faith in AWB and try to play in a way which suits his game. We're all too quick to deride his attacking contribution but having a full-back who you can trust to man-mark a winger one vs one is a huge asset, we just haven't used it much this season. If you look at how City use Walker, I think you could have a blueprint for AWB. Walker is nowhere near as adventurous as Cancelo on the other flank but is often utilised as one of the 'recovery defenders' to help deal with fast breakaways.
Again, I am not saying AWB is perfect, far from it. But I go back to my point, is he so bad that we couldn't possibly achieve a good league positions or win a cup with him in the team? I would say recent History supports my conclusion of 'no, he is not'.
I think there's more to be gained by giving both fullbacks another season under ETH and spending the money in CM and at CF. In fact, I think two good CMs and a genuinely excellent wide-forward to replace Rashford/Greenwood/Martial's contribution could genuinely transform this team quite quickly
For me, Shaw isn't an issue - not perfect, but not a major issue to our aspirations to compete for trophies.
Telles I would have to say is very average but again, that doesn't need to be a huge issue if he's just here for back-up. Not many teams have outstanding back-up LBs.
At RB, we have a bit of an issue. The treatment of AWB is (as usual) well over the top, since again, I remind people we did actually finish 2nd and reach the Europa League final with him at RB. Sure, he's never going to be Cafu, or even James or TAA, but he has skills and attributes which those players do not at the same time.
Of course, I'd like to see United have a technically excellent RB, but again, do I believe having AWB in the team is absolutely prohibitive to our chances of competing for a decent league position and a cup next year? Personally, I would say 'no'.
Dalot, I am afraid, is just rubbish in my opinion. I think he retains a bit of support because some of the angry anti-Glazer, pro-Jose fan accounts on Social Media still talk him up as something he isn't but let's just think for a second...the narrative is that 'he's not a great defender but his attacking contribution is good'...which really doesn't play out in any way, shape or form statistically since he literally has like 5 career assists to his name.
Personally, I'd like to see us either sell both and re-invest the money OR I'd like to see ETH show a bit of faith in AWB and try to play in a way which suits his game. We're all too quick to deride his attacking contribution but having a full-back who you can trust to man-mark a winger one vs one is a huge asset, we just haven't used it much this season. If you look at how City use Walker, I think you could have a blueprint for AWB. Walker is nowhere near as adventurous as Cancelo on the other flank but is often utilised as one of the 'recovery defenders' to help deal with fast breakaways.
Again, I am not saying AWB is perfect, far from it. But I go back to my point, is he so bad that we couldn't possibly achieve a good league positions or win a cup with him in the team? I would say recent History supports my conclusion of 'no, he is not'.
I think there's more to be gained by giving both fullbacks another season under ETH and spending the money in CM and at CF. In fact, I think two good CMs and a genuinely excellent wide-forward to replace Rashford/Greenwood/Martial's contribution could genuinely transform this team quite quickly
at both CM and fullback, there's no way were in the top 15 in the league.
As 1st choice wingers for Norwich
Very low. They have some attributes that are very good but the overall package is just awful. Shaw is the best of them but I don't feel you can rely on him, with two good seasons in eight years.
We used to sneer at Valencia and Young being our full backs when the reality is they were far better than what we have now. As i said in another thread, Valencia has easily been our best right back in nearly ten years.
Remember when we used to have full backs like Neville, Irwin and Evra
Hopefully ten Hag sorts the issue out.
We used to sneer at Valencia and Young being our full backs when the reality is they were far better than what we have now. As i said in another thread, Valencia has easily been our best right back in nearly ten years.
Remember when we used to have full backs like Neville, Irwin and Evra
Hopefully ten Hag sorts the issue out.On form theres not really any contest. AWB and Shaw are much better than Dalot and Telles. The form of the first two has been the issue. On form Shaw is in the top 3 or 4 for his position in the league. AWB is an absolutely excellent defensive right back but if we are talking about his contributions further up the pitch we have issues.
telles and dalot just arent good enough to pull on a red shirt. Period. When we play them they rank in the bottom 6 as a pairing
telles and dalot just arent good enough to pull on a red shirt. Period. When we play them they rank in the bottom 6 as a pairing
You must have made the white text grey, I'm unable to find it
Shaw is decent but still believe we can do better when the priority positions in the first XI (have counted 6 already), on the other side AWB definitely needs to be upgraded this summer because our right side has been totally redundant for years
its boring when people have to stick to hyperbole. He was poor this season. Check which player in our team was top for tackles, blocks and succesful interceptions in our team in the previous season. I guess he didnt get enough goals and assists though so hes a shit defender obviously
Thing is, there is a difference between being a great defender, and being great at some aspects of defending, the latter of which is certainly true for AWB. Sure, he is good one on one, but his positioning is often diabolical. And his tackling - though good - seems to have gone to his head as some sort of image/reputation thing; he's way too reckless with it at times. I prefer defenders who very seldom even need to tackle, like Rio, or even Smalling, even though it may be less flashy. Sure, they were CBs, but you don't see nearly as much all-in tackling from any top FB in the league
A fully fit Shaw at the top of his game is one of the best LBs in the world. Telles would be signed by any team below us. Dalot would also get into any team below us. AWB on his best day can put players like Sterling in his pocket. We have decent full backs, we just need everyone fit and firing, and playing to a proper system. I'd say LB and RB are two of our least urgent positions to fill. CM is where our real issues are. Fix that and even our defense will look 10 times better.
This is absolutely the perfect example of when stats don't tell the full story. AWB is quite clearly not an absolutely excellent defensive right back - I'm genuinely surprised there are still people that believe this.
okay, just to enlighten me, can you reel off a few players that have shit stats but are really really good players because obviously it would work that way as well
When you say Telles would be signed by any team below us I assume you mean for back up at best? Do you honestly believe he'd start over the likes of Cucurella, Creswell, Mitchell, Digne, Targett, Ait Nouri? No chance. Similar story for Dalot. They are nowhere near good enough.
Names I would add before our guys:
RB: Walker-Peters. Livramento would be any day now but the injury is massive. Cash is better than AWB and Dalot right now. Also Azpilicueta for sure still and Tomiyasu might be (though I sort of think Saliba will be great and White will end up at RB tucked in a bit). James Justin if he's back 100%. Castagne is probably the same level as AWB and Dalot but better going forward than the former and better defensively than the latter so overall probably better.
LB: This list seems fine with a slight bump for Cucarella, who has been perhaps the best player on 2 very different teams in different leagues now. Also Tsimikas is likely quite good in the Zinchenko/Reguilon group, just doesn't play much.
The RBs look better defensively and the LBs better offensively.
Shows just how little I know of football that I thought they were top 6 worthy last year.
Maybe all the opinions would change here as well in a year whether they perform or not but with some hindsight I think its fair to say that only shaw(at his very best comes close to being top 6 worthy) all the other options have been failures so far.
Maybe all the opinions would change here as well in a year whether they perform or not but with some hindsight I think its fair to say that only shaw(at his very best comes close to being top 6 worthy) all the other options have been failures so far.
It depends on how severe the complications were. If they affected his running speed while also risking exacerbation every time he performs postponing the operation at all is just a horrible decision.
I hope that’s the case! i’m sure it helped make his mind up though instead of carrying on.
Shaw may have the highest ceiling of our full-backs but he only reaches it occasionally, so he‘s not worth having around. Because of his inconsistency, not just over seasons, but during individual seasons, too. I would have any just above average full-back who performs consistently at his level over Shaw.
He is theoretically our best full-back but he‘s not good/consistent enough for any club with top 4 ambitions.
He is theoretically our best full-back but he‘s not good/consistent enough for any club with top 4 ambitions.
Shaw is one is the best lb around. He needs to be more consistent.
Wan Bissaka is the best tackler in the league. He has powerful stamina.
Dalot is the best wingback in attack.
Wan Bissaka is the best tackler in the league. He has powerful stamina.
Dalot is the best wingback in attack.
Some of the hyperbole here is a little bit crazy, Dalot & Telles championship / league 1 level? Come off it. Neither should be starting for us but they are adequate backups to keep things ticking over if our starter gets injured. I think Dalot actually has good link up play and it alright defensively, his end product is just gash I.E a good number two.
Telles - Much the same to be honest, not a starter but a decent back up option.
AWB - Definitely useful in certain situations when we expect our backs to be against the wall and need to be solid defensively, there was a point last year he looked incredible, obviously a huge weakness going forward.. Would also be a good/great back up option.
Shaw - is so frustrating because we've seen how good he can be but he's about as consistent as Amber Heard's stories. With all this being said I wouldn't care an Iota if any of them were sold, I think if we get a good RB in and see if ETH can work some magic on shaw then it won't be as bad as it appears.
It's important to note that a lot of our defensive fragility comes from the lack of cover from our midfield. A genuine DM will help us in this regard massively.
Telles - Much the same to be honest, not a starter but a decent back up option.
AWB - Definitely useful in certain situations when we expect our backs to be against the wall and need to be solid defensively, there was a point last year he looked incredible, obviously a huge weakness going forward.. Would also be a good/great back up option.
Shaw - is so frustrating because we've seen how good he can be but he's about as consistent as Amber Heard's stories. With all this being said I wouldn't care an Iota if any of them were sold, I think if we get a good RB in and see if ETH can work some magic on shaw then it won't be as bad as it appears.
It's important to note that a lot of our defensive fragility comes from the lack of cover from our midfield. A genuine DM will help us in this regard massively.
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I wonder if this thread was made for every position where people would rank them right now. I suspect where we are in the table relative to that would mean we're overachieving and that our players are actually doing quite well.
Central midfielders would definitely be ranked low, central defenders barring Varane as well plus individuals like Rashford, Lingard and Mata.
Central midfielders would definitely be ranked low, central defenders barring Varane as well plus individuals like Rashford, Lingard and Mata.
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Shaw - one good season where he was arguably the best LB in the league, the rest are disappointing
AWB - not the type we need, mid table at best
Telles - poor defensively, bottom half level
Dalot - decent backup, bottom half level
AWB - not the type we need, mid table at best
Telles - poor defensively, bottom half level
Dalot - decent backup, bottom half level
Then he has no place in professional football.
They're not as bad as some are saying here. At the end of the day, we put our own players under much, much more scrutiny than those at other clubs. That is natural. No one makes a big deal over Livramento making an error, for example, but the same error by one of our fullbacks would be pored over and analysed to death.
Telles and Dalot are ok for squad options. I'd like better ones, but they will do for now. Shaw is an excellent player when he is on form. Let's see if ETH can tease that out of him on the regular. If not, replace next year. AWB was improving somewhat but has now stagnated. Might be nice to see what he can do if he is able to offload the ball to a top midfielder or a marauding winger who likes to bomb forward. A few times earlier on this season I have seen him overlapping or driving it forward but he seems to have little support when he does. That obviously makes him look worse.
Telles and Dalot are ok for squad options. I'd like better ones, but they will do for now. Shaw is an excellent player when he is on form. Let's see if ETH can tease that out of him on the regular. If not, replace next year. AWB was improving somewhat but has now stagnated. Might be nice to see what he can do if he is able to offload the ball to a top midfielder or a marauding winger who likes to bomb forward. A few times earlier on this season I have seen him overlapping or driving it forward but he seems to have little support when he does. That obviously makes him look worse.
This is a very balanced post and I would agree with most of it. AWB can actually defend 1 on 1 when forced to unlike say TAA for instance. Unfortunately he gives you absolutely nothing going forward unlike TAA, Reece James, Cancelo etc etc. Telles, Dalot and Williams are in the unconvincing bracket so far and given that Telles is 29 I think if someone made a reasonable offer 10-20m we should let him go this summer provided we can get in a replacement, hopefully younger with more energy and better defensive positioning.
I think we need to focus first on a strong first 11. we cant sell AWB without a big loss and he has a good age profile. Dalot and Telles are both just total mediocrities we could sell to the continent for a decent fee. We may well need new wingbacks if the form of AWB and Shaw continues but I see us upgrading the spine of the team this summer - where we have no midfield, an injury prone centre back and one who doesnt fit the way we probably want to play, and one 37 year old striker.
May be surprised but I expect us to start the new season with Shaw and AWB as starting wing backs. For financial reasons It would be sensible to cull Telles and Dalot for some funds and use Brandon and Laird on low wages as backups for now. But who knows, maybe we sign someone at right back and push AWB onto the bench.
@sullydnl posted Van Dijk's numbers yesterday. If you went off them, you'd think he was second-rate and not in fact one of the best in the world. Suitably enlightened?
by one example? Not really no
I'd recommend checking fbref.com and just going through top fullbacks and centrebacks. Defensive stats will nearly universally be all over the place, van Dijk is a norm not the exception here.
Shaw is decent when he’s fit and on form. He could do with some genuine competition though.
Telles and Dalot need to be sold as soon as possible. Neither are even good enough to be back up. They are the first two that need replacing. Two of the worst full backs we have had in my life time. To anyone who thinks they are ok squad options… have you seen how bad we are with them in the team?
AWB could maybe be back up in the short term to a genuinely good right back which needs to be a priority position for us to fill.
Telles and Dalot need to be sold as soon as possible. Neither are even good enough to be back up. They are the first two that need replacing. Two of the worst full backs we have had in my life time. To anyone who thinks they are ok squad options… have you seen how bad we are with them in the team?
AWB could maybe be back up in the short term to a genuinely good right back which needs to be a priority position for us to fill.
I'm totally over the Luke Shaw experience. If its not laziness or being out of shape, its injury. We've fallen a long way from the days of uber consistency in that position from Irwin, Evra or even Heinze to this slob.
yes but stats need context. AWB is in the top percentiles at blocks and interceptions and reasonable at tackles and clearances. To me thats a sign of a defender doing defendery stuff well, especially in a team like ours where the opposition come at us all game. If he plays in a team that controls posession that would obviously go down like VVd. And looking at the similar players to VVD you start to see man citys centre backs on the list. Because they keep the ball and dont get coshed every game.
Linked to these stats vs context he is weaker at pressures presumably because we dont do that as a team. whats funny is that the most similar player to him is Max Aarons who many on this forum seem to think we should sign. Whats also funny is his pass completion is at 84% over the last year but many on here will claim he cant pass a ball.
Yes, they absolutely do need context. Telles, Dalot, and AWB all look good based on stats. Do any of them pass the eye test? Like hell they do.
well thats my point really. AWB is better defensively than any of them and when in form i maintain i believe he is a good defensive right back. Thats not me trying to say he is a worldie. We will never sell him for profit on our investment so we should really cash in on the ones who we can sell to the continent in Telles and Dalot. In the effort of squad building i think we will see AWB eventually become a squad player. To build a squad we need to pick our long term players (age will be a factor) as well as signing players to bench certain members of our starting 11.
I got RR dropping Shaw and AWB when he arrived but all that did was knock better players who were off form out of the 11 to play turbo shite in both full back positions and i dont understand why they haven't regained their places or been given a game. Telles and Dalot havent even been playing badly they are just that shit