Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by tentan, May 13, 2019.
They're not the best ever because they flopped in CL. Come back when you achieve something in CL.
Bayern Munich 2012/13 was better than the current Man City team. 91 points in the Bundesliga which is only a 34 game season instead of 38 in England, they won the German cup and they broke or equaled 30 records during the season. They also won the Champions league and on route to the Champions league title they beat Juve 0-4 on AGG and Barcelona 7-0 AGG.
Would ‘Handily’ beat the best United side? hahaha this City team couldn't ‘handily’ beat Spurs or Liverpool this season and I can name 3 utd teams in the PL era better than this seasons Liverpool or Spurs.
Teams in Europe are certainly not better now, I’d say 10/15 years ago the standard in the champions league was a bit higher.
It wasn’t. Even less in 99.
and your treble winning side couldn't beat sheffield wednesday and middlesbrough. Come on man, don't use this argument. It's not very logical.
And City did actually beat both Spurs and Liverpool this season.
It's a really subjective question and nothing can be proven but this City side got 98 points and 100 points in a much tougher league than the ones United had. I believe that they are a much better side than any United.
I don't support either of those sides btw.
Surely that's a fairly blinkered assessment? Fergie didn't really achieve much until 1999 but his United sides from, say, 92-97 are undoubtedly among the PL's best. Similarly Wenger never really did much in Europe, but no one questions the quality of his invincibles. And Mourinho's Chelsea never got to a CL final, knocked out twice by a Liverpool side who finished 5th and 3rd domestically, and also in the last 16. But again...disputing their status as one of the all-time great PL sides would be silly.
It’s reaching the nonsense where someone will say that Chelsea team and Di Matteo were better because they won in 2012. Champions League knockouts, Euros and World cups 50% of the time the best team doesn’t win. Maybe less but you get the point.
This Man City will achieve everything they wanted, just the matter of time.
They have all the money they wanted to spend, take fair/unfair play apart (FIFA, FA, UEFA won't punish a big fish, what they want is money), I don't see any reason they can not conquer the next 10 years if the owner still the owner.
A team that hold the record for most points , most win, and most goal scored in a season. Statistically it is the best team in EPL history in a single season. There seems no sign Pep will leave Man City in the near future so his dominance in EPL will continue. He will probably win a domestic triple this season as well.
Agreed. They are good, in fact very very good but you can't be good or great when you couldn't even win the CL (i.e. suppose to be the best teams in Europe).
I think some of the teams in PL make them look good. They just go into the game with 10 men behind their own goal and invite City to attack. They won't even venture out for counter etc. When they are push they will lose or draw more.
But he says it was so that’s that.
Hard to argue against a side that won the German Cup in England.
Outside of the top5 but definitely top10 all time.
Same with Liverpool tbh. I think they’re with City and their play/team this season deserves to be top10 as well.
So let me get this straight. Pep got hired by Man City to win the PL again and again with some FA Cups and some Carling Cups thrown in. All the while failing in the most watched and most prestigious club competition in the World? So Pep got hired to watch Barcalona and Madrid dominate the La Liga AND win the Champions League, to play in Final games that's watched by over 300 Million+ Fans globally, all the while Pep is playing for the Carling Cup against Bolton or something? But it's all good as long as he wins some PL Titles??
No, let's not make it our goal to beat European Giants like Juventus and Barca and Madrid and Bayern. Let's instead make it our goal to continue to farm Stoke Citys and Fulhams on cold rainy Wednesday nights in England. I'm sure farming Fulhams and Derby Counties for the next decade is FAR more prestigious and important than winning the Champions League against historic giants.
Look at Pep's face as Tottenham knocked him out. Take a look at his emotions. That's the face of someone that died inside. He absolutely wanted to win the CL because there's no club trophy bigger. He just couldn't do it due to some tactical errors. Let's not try to spin this into 'Pep didn't care' when he simply got outplayed due to a variety of factors(bad luck included). Just wait and see. If Pep fails badly in the CL for another 3 seasons, he's gone.
There is no evidence whatsoever to back this up. There are 4 English teams in the European finals this season. The strength of the prem is easily better than it was in 99 for example. Besides United, how did English teams fare in Europe back then, if they were so strong? Leeds, West Ham and Villa finished in the top 6 in 99. Would you say theyre better than todays Spurs, Arsenal and United?
Just out of curiosity, how many points do you think that this City team would get in that 99 league season?
Given all their investments and still not winning the CL behind our 99 and 08 teams and the great Liverpool teams of the 70s and 80s and Joses 05 to 06 Chelsea. I could see that side muscle this City one off the pitch because if Murray can score a header like he did on Sunday imagine what would Drogba do... Still relived they are Champions offcourse.
If we beat Watford and do the treble, and knowing the grief City always puts its fans through, hence starting with if, then domestically i think they will have been the best team if the Premier League era.
I realise fans are saying about the CL but in all honesty this years final will be played ny two teams that have never won the PL. 1 of which didn't spend any money during the season.
In Europe we are regularly getting past the group stages and into the knockout rounds. We've been playing in all 4 competitions. With 3 all going down to the final game, PL, LC and FA Cup.
I see this season as our greatest ever, whether we win the FA Cup or not. To have been put through a title race like that and do as well as we have in the other comps.
I'll take it every season. Who wouldn't?
No. It was a long term strategy by the owners. He got hired to implement a specific playing style and improve the team for the long term. The owners specifically stated that it was a long term plan and honestly it looks like it's coming to fruition.
You should also know about "City Football Group" and their idea of buying up a bunch of clubs to implement the principle of "the City Way" using Guardiola's philosophy.
They're trying to build a dynasty with improvements each year and this is what is happening. I think they think they will eventually win the CL.
Also, Pellegrini and the rest did actually get fired when they didn't win the PL. We can all make up things and go by rumors but these were the actual objectives given to Pep before it all started.
Like Guardiola has said countless times, he actually didn't get hired to win the CL and his actions showed that he wasn't lying when he prioritized winning the PL over Liverpool by resting players in the CL.
Fact is, when there were rules Chelsea abided by them while City have cooked their books. Personally, i'm against FFP. No person or organization should have any right to say how much an individual or business should be allowed to spend. If a club ends up being made bankrupt, then that's their fault and their job to sort out and rebuild.
Winning the CL is a large part of 'City Football Group's' 'long term plan'. He's currently failing at it. The City 'football' way is the funniest thing I ever heard. What 'football way'. We are talking about City like we are talking about Barca now? I see some massive goalpost moving by City fans here. In America we have a word call 'Homer'. There's a difference between being a City fan and a City 'homer'(a lot of the posters on this site).
I give a example of this. City fans openly acknowledged that we failed to win the CL and that should rightfully count against us if we are to be compared to the great United teams of the past. City 'homers' create intricate excuses and romantic notions of 'footballing ways' 'style over trophies' 'english domestic dominance' all of which simply equate to 'we failed at the CL so badly but let's just ignore it and talk about our x points out of x games'.
City homers also happen to gush about City's 'incredible points total' and how legendary it is yet little Liverpool was only ONE POINT BEHIND this legendary point total. I guess they must be a legendary side too. But wait, for Liverpool it's luck... If what some City homers are saying about Pep is true. Which is he's on purposely making the CL secondary and actively using his incredible resources to just win the PL? This further illustrates how far behind this squad is compare to United's 99 and 08. Since Ferguson was actively trying to go all out for the treble(THE REAL TREBLE) during those seasons. If Ferguson ONLY cared about the PL? He would have amassed 100 points in 08.
left out one of these......... , edited now.
I'm not sure what this has to do with my original post. If he wanted the CL above the PL he wouldn't have rested Sane and De Bruyne at WHL. It's really simple.
There’s no evidence to back up the opposing argument either, it’s all down to opinion.
I never said anything about the top 6 I said bottom half teams.
10/15 we had a team in the champions league final 6 years in a row, Middlesbrough and Fulham in the Uefa Cup final, could you picture current Bournemouth and West Ham sides in a Europa League final now? no.
I think this city team would’ve been able to get between 75-80 pts in ‘99.
But by saying this Man City side would ‘handily’ beat any United side you started this illogical argument?
Yea they beat them, but not ‘handily’ those games could’ve gone either way.
I strongly disagree that the league is tougher now. The premier league peaked between 2005 and 2010 in terms of depth of quality in the league, teams lower down the table back then were good enough to compete in the Uefa Cup, the lower table teams could not compete in the Europa League now. For example, Middlesbrough in 2006 reached the Uefa Cup final but finished 14th in the league, could Bournemouth who finished 14th this season even compete in the Europa League let alone reach a final.
Why are we making posts that talk about how good City is? We know they are good. Can we just leave it at that and not talk about it so we aren't reminded about it every day?
The club, via Khaldoon or Guardiola (or any previous managers) have never stated that winning the Champions League is the club’s overriding, number 1 priority. Does that mean winning the Champions League is not part of the long term plan/goals? No, of course not. City want to win the Champions League, and wanted to win it this year, but it’s not our only goal. Hence the sensible juggling of squad resources in the Spurs tie. Sadly it didn’t work out this year. The Champions League is a tough competition to win, and only one team can win it. I think we’ve probably been good enough to win it these past two seasons, but we haven’t quite performed as we needed to in certain games and also didn’t have the rub of the green on occasions, so we went out. That’s knock-out cup football for you.
The club have consistently stated, as I believe they should, that the Premier League is the bread and butter, and the Champions League would be a fantastic bonus on top of that. Ask Khaldoon if he thinks Guardiola is currently failing, and I can assure you he would say no. I’d recommend you watch any of Khaldoon’s post-season interviews on the City website, as well as the one that will be published next week. That might help you understand the club’s vision/plan.
Your comments about “farming” Fulhams, Stoke City’s, and Derby Countys are arrogant and bordering on offensive. They suggest you have no understanding of the culture of English football and the importance of the domestic league. And yes, I’d say it’s perfectly reasonable for City fans to “gush” about our points totals in both 2018 and 2019. They are the highest points totals ever achieved in the English top division. It seems very strange for you, as a purported City fan, to want to mock or belittle our achievements over the past two seasons.
It's a long term plan like they said countless times. You're laughing and behaving like if I invented it. I'm just relaying what they stated their philosophy is and what their objectives were. They never told Guardiola he must win the CL this season. He said that many times and it's like you're making up something in your head to help ease the pain. I don't get it's so hard for you to understand.
I don't support City but I find how the club is run deserves some credit. Yes they pushed a lot of money but the management of the club is good.
Do you mean hypothetical? I think you use the term illogical wrongly there. By stating that it can't be proven is just factual.
If you don't think the league is tougher now then you are in denial.
There are 4 European Finalists in all European competitions. The EPL in 2005-2010 couldn't possibly do that. England's 2nd placed team has knocked out Spain's Champions and German champions and Italy's 2nd best. England's 5th best knocked out Italy's 2nd best. Sorry but the EPL in 2005-2010 couldn't possibly be better than now in terms of quality and strength.
You are just using Middlesbrough to make a point. This is a one off. The finals in all european competitions are taken up by english teams and none of them are even the PL winners. There are two teams that finished 98 and 97 points. Liverpool just beat Messi's Barcelona 4-0. You seriously have to be in denial.
There is no doubt City are an impressive side/squad. I would have doubts about them defensively. I think sides are afraid to have a go at them for fear of being caught on the counter. De Bruyne, Silva B, Silva.D, Aguero, Sterling and Sane are players of the highest calibre.
Sides try. Leicester did. They're just a great defensive side.
I have no idea why you would think the PL is tougher now than it was in the late 90's & 00's. Leicester won the PL in 15/16. Chelsea set the record for season PL wins in 16/17. City broke this record in 17/18 & have scored over 200 league goals in 2 seasons. This season Spurs ended the season with 13 losses & still achieved 4th place. This shows how poor the PL has been in the last few years.
The fact that a struggling Championship side give City a better game than the large majority of PL teams says alot. Many PL managers only game plans seem to be to park the bus. This inevitably leads to them being camped inside their own half where they invariably make a mistake & concede. It is a tactic that has a very low percentage chance of working. It's unfathomable why so many managers persist with it.
This is a side that is setting new standards. The fact that they haven't delivered in the Champion League is bizarre.
Having said that, the whole ethos of City is toxic, anti-football and anti-sport. I have no doubt that they cheat (in respect of FFP), and that football generally would be better if they were held to account for it. Comparisons between City, for whom money is no object, and the United treble side are immaterial. Kompany said it was a matter of time before City achieved the quadruple: if that's true, then god help us - sport is dead.
United in 2008 would paste this City side.....
United in 2017/18 beat this City side from 2-0 down, at their own ground, on the day they were supposed to win the title. The 2008 side would have laughed at the United side of that day.
You’ve got to admire his persistence.
Points mean absolutely feck all. Having the most points in any given season is all that matters. It is better to have the most points, the most times, than to have the highest points of all time.
Also, it's a greater achievement to win a competitive league, than it is to win an uncompetitive league. Being challenged by all sides throughout the seasons tests a side more than crushing sides without breaking sweat.
United won the league with 91 points in 2000, it was a fairly dull affair compared to the titanic battle of the season prior or even City's 2012 triumph.
Even this season's City win, with fewer points was better than last season's purely because they had a challenger.
That's how it works in football. Always has, always will despite Sky Sports feeble attempts to claim otherwise.
That's just it, they spent the best part of a billion pounds in seven years and UEFA are keen to punish them for breaking spending rules. How can it still be called a sport? It's chequebook madness.
They are an excellent side, statistically they probably won't be bettered, but you'd bloody expect they would be this great with the sort of investment they made. And yet for all their achievements they really aren't the 'story'. The league cup final, everyone talked about Chelsea. The league, the media are interested in what Liverpool do. It's just expected City would be great. They failed in Europe.
I'm not so sure United 2008 would beat this City side, but they'd definitely find space in defence. I think the team of yesteryear that would stand the greatest chance against them now would've been Chelsea era 2004-06. Watertight defence, Makelele and Essien and even though Drogba hadn't hit peak form then he would've ruffled Laporte and Stones.
City are great to watch but again, I think teams like Newcastle 94-96 and Arsenal 2001-05 redefined what was possible in the league and were far more spontaneous.
The best ever purely from a domestic point of view ? Yes maybe , it's still to be seen if they win the Fa cup where we saw them lose to absolute minnows.
But who cares about domestic football , if you want the world to speak about you, you have to win everything and everywhere!
They will never be in the same bracket as Ajax 72, United 99 and 08, Barcelona 2009 and 2015 , Inter Milan 2010, Bayern 2013 , the 3 in row CL winners Real Madrid , they will never be in the same sentence as those especially outside England.
Because of the above, they are still meaningless to the football world just like PSG are, they never made a CL final let alone win one, in the last two CL they have been pants lost home and away to Liverpool, lost to shaktar , this year they lost to Lyon and been putted to the sword by Spurs, so yeah they are impressive in the PL but outside of it they are nothing.
City buy a 50m keeper, half season it wasn't go well, no problem, winter break buy another 50m keeper. How possible City couldn't be the world best?
I think you are in denial, I can not take your opinion on football seriously. In a united forum but not a united fan, weird behaviour.
Middlesbrough was not a one off, Fulham got to the final in 2010 whilst finishing 12th in the league. Could Crystal Palace, who finished 12th this season compete in the Europa League now? no.
My comments about Fulham and Stoke City was stupid. But you only found it offensive because they are English clubs. Spaniards will also find it offensive over the countless comments made by non Spaniards regarding Messi/Ronaldo farming what we consider 'random nameless Spanish sides'. Same thing with Italians finding it offensive over non Italians mocking bottom tier teams being destroyed by Juventus. This further illustrate my point. To be truly known as a European Giant, you have to beat the European Giants of the CL. To the English public, teams like Derby County, Reading, Fulham and so forth have ingrained fanbases and history. To the rest of the World, they are just teams there to be farmed by the PL top dogs.
Manchester United not only farmed those lower tier PL teams but also achieved the glories of Europe. Look at the long list of European icons that fell to United over the years. United also went all out in both 99 and 08 to win on all fronts. So now we must think carefully about how good this City team really is compare to 99 United and 08 United. There's two routes to take here. Route 1: Pep actually attempted to go ALL OUT in both CL and PL. Failed in CL and achieved an iconic point total in PL. In this case, United 99 and 08 are both more impressive since they went all out as well and actually won CL and PL. Route 2. Pep amazingly only put out his best side in the PL and tried to win the CL with an inferior side. In this case, Pep's point total is actually not impressive at all, since he was conserving his best team. United in both 99 and 08 didn't conserve anything and threw their best squads into the gauntlet of both the PL AND CL.
I'm being extremely lenient with the scoring here(with heavy favoritism to the domestic league) Let's say PL= 10 points. CL=10 points and FA Cup= 5 Points.
United 99 = 25 Points
City=10 Points with potential to win the FA cup. 15 Points
United 08= 20 Points
Both United 99 and United 08 have clearly achieved more than City 19. I'm strong enough to admit this.
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