The big 4.
Coaching, System, Squad management, and inconsistent players.
Coaching, System, Squad management, and inconsistent players.
Where's the FLAW? System or Coaching?
- Thread starter OleTheGreat
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Strikers.
Don't pretend there's some big insurmountable issue at our team, if we had guys who stuck the ball in the net these threads would pass on! They would be no more! They would cease to be! They'd expire and go to meet their maker! They'd shuffle off their mortal coil, run down the curtain and join the bleedin' choir invisible!! THEY'D BE EX-THREADS!!
Don't pretend there's some big insurmountable issue at our team, if we had guys who stuck the ball in the net these threads would pass on! They would be no more! They would cease to be! They'd expire and go to meet their maker! They'd shuffle off their mortal coil, run down the curtain and join the bleedin' choir invisible!! THEY'D BE EX-THREADS!!
Nice argument, well stated. I am all for bringing in players that would work in our system. But the coaches must also see the basic flaws that we can see with some of our players. I am not going to name people because I don’t want to turn it into one of those discussions.
I think we basically have three flaws in the team; at pivot, the striker and on the right.
The McFred combo is woeful on the ball and this affects our ability to catch out teams with balls from deep and to circulate the ball until an opening is created. It also forces us to rely on Bruno for all our creativity and teams know that stopping him is half the job done because we have nothing else.
With a younger version of Matic you could get away with playing Bruno and Pogba in the same midfield and our creativity would go up several notches. I think it's no accident that we played some of our best football when Matic was in the team with Bruno and Pogba. This makes a DM our most important signing.
The other issue is that 2/3 of the attacking triumvirate that led us to 3rd last season has had a poor campaign this season. Martial is important to how we play, when he plays well, because he has the creativity and link up play that allows Rashford, in particular, to focus more on being a forward than being a LW. With Martial regressing we have lost the glue that held the front three together and consequently Rashford, Bruno and Greenwood have all suffered to a degree.
I have always thought that a DM and CB were the key signings we should make but seeing how unreliable Martial has been and the fact that he is no closer to turning it around makes me think we should go for a DM and striker then look to continue with Maguire, Lindelof and Bailly for one more season, maybe Axel will finally grow into the player he can be during that time. I would also like to see what Diallo, Greenwood and James can do for one more season.
The McFred combo is woeful on the ball and this affects our ability to catch out teams with balls from deep and to circulate the ball until an opening is created. It also forces us to rely on Bruno for all our creativity and teams know that stopping him is half the job done because we have nothing else.
With a younger version of Matic you could get away with playing Bruno and Pogba in the same midfield and our creativity would go up several notches. I think it's no accident that we played some of our best football when Matic was in the team with Bruno and Pogba. This makes a DM our most important signing.
The other issue is that 2/3 of the attacking triumvirate that led us to 3rd last season has had a poor campaign this season. Martial is important to how we play, when he plays well, because he has the creativity and link up play that allows Rashford, in particular, to focus more on being a forward than being a LW. With Martial regressing we have lost the glue that held the front three together and consequently Rashford, Bruno and Greenwood have all suffered to a degree.
I have always thought that a DM and CB were the key signings we should make but seeing how unreliable Martial has been and the fact that he is no closer to turning it around makes me think we should go for a DM and striker then look to continue with Maguire, Lindelof and Bailly for one more season, maybe Axel will finally grow into the player he can be during that time. I would also like to see what Diallo, Greenwood and James can do for one more season.
I think, with that in mind, it is interesting to look at Liverpool. They created a system based on a midfield of three workhorses. The level of Henderson, Wijnaldum and Fabinho is certainly higher than this of Fred and McTominay but by how much in terms of offense? (rhetorical question)My point was that coaching isn’t going to solve our offensive midtfield issue as long as we have to play both Fred and McT on the midfield (defensive stability) and Pogba has been more out that in our startup.
It’s quite obvious we need more skills available on our midtfield. We can’t solve that with coaching. Don’t see how coaching can do offensive magic with Fred/McT.
But I said you had some good points too
My main point here is that Klopp adjusted his system to have his fullbacks create chances so the midfield wasn't tasked with that. Of course it helps to have such great fullbacks like Robertson and TAA but the principle is sound: try to find an approach to play the game that suits the strenght of the players you have at your disposal.
It is certainly somewhat of a hen-or-egg situation but for me it makes the most sense to:
1) assess players available for the skill sets, traits and weaknesses
2) list roles and tasks that these players would be suited for (or obviously are not)
3) create a "system" consisting of roles and tasks at specific parts of the pitch (formation) incorporating as many players playing to their strength as possible
4) emphasize strengths by coaching
5) try to mitigate weaknesses by coaching
6) provide players (player groups) with a few ready-made moves to get out of situations or into promising ones
7) bring in obvious upgrades or close obvious gaps with transfers
(to close the opened Liverpool arc: the Thiago transfer can be seen as Klopp trying to add another factor into his arsenal "having creativity in midfield to make use of the space in the middle when teams defend the flanks against the fullbacks". It doesn't work so well until now but not because Thiago is somehow shit from one day of the other but because it requires all the other players to play differently. Of course that is on top of the other issues, this teams currently has)
I agree our recruitment has improved recently but it looks like we will probably be paying for our old mistakes for a while yet. I don’t see us going out and blowing other teams out of the water for a haaland or anything which is a pity given the figures we’ve wasted on absolutely nothing over the last 8 years. I also don’t understand how the owners operate. They’ve left managers hanging for transfers when we look like finally kicking on. I’m sure it’s been hard for the management to plan around but hopefully this summer we can still bring in a starter or even 2.
I think a good striker and a creative winger instead of an inside forward would make the attack look a lot more cohesive and dangerous especially against the park the bus teams. A DM would shore up the backline and initiate attacks from deeper positions and allow us to play Pogba and Bruno. I think those tweaks could definitely bring us on.
The problem is finding the right players. Are the glazers going to insist on older free transfers to placehold or just keep buying young players for the future? Are the right players for next season available for us in this pool? It’ll be very interesting to see what Murtough and co end up doing and what kind of budget they have. Its looking to me like the whole setup has become even more geared towards leaving plenty of space in the squad for youth players from next season on. I’m excited to see how the likes of Hannibal and Amad do but an injury crisis aside I’m really not sure if it’ll be enough football for young lads to develop properly. Let’s see how it goes anyway
We have too many ball hogs and very little player movements with or without the ball. We have players who can run/sprint but no intelligent runs at all. Unless the conditions are perfect for a pass there is no attacking threat. Pogba and Bruno are the only ones do something with some creative instincts but it is met with players who need too much time to control the ball or are either ahead of the ball or behind the ball. Seen this far too often to ignore it as a misplaced pass.
The other thing i have noticed is, our players barring the defensive positioning (while on the ball) or while sideways passing are never actively looking for move without the ball. There is no attacking the space and it's extremely evident when we play teams that sit back and defend.
The reason why a 35 yr old Cavani looks good in this team is because of his movement. He knows where to run when to run and when not to, it's just basics of football. And that leads me to the other thing, our players don't know how to keep things simple. It's either sideways mundane passing or Hollywood balls or trying to pass while sending a telegram to the player intending to pass it to.
so it's a combination of coaching, system, expectations, and more importantly letting the players know what they are doing wrong ( which i guess goes back to coaching)
I would say it is mostly the players. I struggle with the idea that we should be doing much better than we are. On what basis?
Man City are a fantastic side, have been for years and they're continually building upon a successful formula with shrewd signings. I think we are achieving what we are capable of, at least numerically speaking. There is also a decent argument that we are perhaps at the top end of what we should be achieving in the league. This is partly because Chelsea and especially Liverpool have been surprisingly poor, but there is a real argument to be had over our relative squad in comparison to these teams. It's certainly not trivial to suggest ours is superior.
The performances are not spectacular, but has Ole really made that many signings, and are there key hindrances to a flowing, attacking style that we all want to see? I think those are things to consider.
We've made a couple of big signings in defence, that have improved us somewhat but it's not going to turn us into a fantastic football team all of a sudden. We have signed Bruno, which has been a real boost. VdB who has not worked out to date, unfortunately. Dan James seemingly intended as a squad player and slight punt. Telles is a backup left back, fairly normal stuff. Then mostly youngsters that are long term bets. The reality is we had an extremely poor side when Ole came in, it's not by some cruel turn of fate that the last managers were poor - the teams were poor and they bought poorly which has really slowed us down financially. It was never a quick fix to rectify large swathes of a squad.
In terms of not playing the football we want to see, I think we've at times hinted at what we're trying to do. The problem is, we don't have the consistency in play up front due to inexperience, or underperformers. We lack something in midfield, and we've struggled to keep Pogba fit as the one guy that is going to be key to breaking sides down. So yes, our possession play, our control of games, our ability to play through teams is not good and hasn't been for some time and that's because we lack the personnel to do it. I don't for a second think that if a different manager came in we'd excel in these areas, there is no magic wand that completely overrides player quality. We'd perhaps play differently, maybe we'd play an ultra high energy style, but it's only likely to open up other holes in this team as fundamentally we have some weak areas.
Man City are a fantastic side, have been for years and they're continually building upon a successful formula with shrewd signings. I think we are achieving what we are capable of, at least numerically speaking. There is also a decent argument that we are perhaps at the top end of what we should be achieving in the league. This is partly because Chelsea and especially Liverpool have been surprisingly poor, but there is a real argument to be had over our relative squad in comparison to these teams. It's certainly not trivial to suggest ours is superior.
The performances are not spectacular, but has Ole really made that many signings, and are there key hindrances to a flowing, attacking style that we all want to see? I think those are things to consider.
We've made a couple of big signings in defence, that have improved us somewhat but it's not going to turn us into a fantastic football team all of a sudden. We have signed Bruno, which has been a real boost. VdB who has not worked out to date, unfortunately. Dan James seemingly intended as a squad player and slight punt. Telles is a backup left back, fairly normal stuff. Then mostly youngsters that are long term bets. The reality is we had an extremely poor side when Ole came in, it's not by some cruel turn of fate that the last managers were poor - the teams were poor and they bought poorly which has really slowed us down financially. It was never a quick fix to rectify large swathes of a squad.
In terms of not playing the football we want to see, I think we've at times hinted at what we're trying to do. The problem is, we don't have the consistency in play up front due to inexperience, or underperformers. We lack something in midfield, and we've struggled to keep Pogba fit as the one guy that is going to be key to breaking sides down. So yes, our possession play, our control of games, our ability to play through teams is not good and hasn't been for some time and that's because we lack the personnel to do it. I don't for a second think that if a different manager came in we'd excel in these areas, there is no magic wand that completely overrides player quality. We'd perhaps play differently, maybe we'd play an ultra high energy style, but it's only likely to open up other holes in this team as fundamentally we have some weak areas.
United’s biggest issue is our owners sole priority is to make money. Compare that to City, whose primary objective is to win trophies. Providing we make champions league, what happens on the pitch is basically inconsequential. Ole isn’t good enough, and the coaching set up clearly isn’t good enough, but unless we are able to get an all time great level manager like we had with Fergie, we won’t be winning any league titles under this ownership. £90m in dividends every year. That’s Jadon Sancho/Erling Haaland money, straight into our owners pocket. Then they use money generated by United to sign big names for their NFL team. It’s criminal.
This. This is why however Ole pretends hes playing like the old Fergie teams, he really isnt. Whenever we won the ball there were usually at least 2 outballs or more. Now its like Subbuteo. Everyone has reached their positions, so just stand around until the ball arrives.
I think the players are just knackered. There's never been a schedule like this. They seemed to run out of gas at the tail end of last season, then there was the total lack of preseason and prep and to my mind it's just a case of everything catching up in the last couple of months. How many times this season have we had a really good result, then in the next match played like our boots are filled with cement? I think fans expect too much of players at times, they aren't robots and the schedule is insane. Even if you've only played five-a-side, you know how it is when your legs go. Even simple passes start going astray and it's hard to do basic stuff well. Several managers have spoken out about how training anything is nigh-on impossible this season, it's just play, rest, recovery work.
United and city have suffered more than most due to the extended previous season, but city have such a ridiculous squad that they can rotate and they've got quality and depth all over the park. It's no coincidence that they've pulled away massively as the demands of the season have caught up with everyone else. Nearly every team has been all over the shop at various points.
That doesn't mean I think everything's brilliant - it's not. But I think this season is just a get through it and grind it out job.
United and city have suffered more than most due to the extended previous season, but city have such a ridiculous squad that they can rotate and they've got quality and depth all over the park. It's no coincidence that they've pulled away massively as the demands of the season have caught up with everyone else. Nearly every team has been all over the shop at various points.
That doesn't mean I think everything's brilliant - it's not. But I think this season is just a get through it and grind it out job.
Its both really. we havent the right players for 4-2-3-1 and the system obviously doesnt aid the team to beat the low block. A proper DM and a change to 4-1-4-1 would mean we could play more on the front foot. If Pogba goes I think VDB or McTom could play alongside Bruno until we get better players.
Think it’s fair to say the level of Liverpool players you mention is a step above both McT and Fred.
Henderson/Wijnaldum is a better offensive combo than Fred/McT. They are in my opinion a good example it’s possible to have workhorses with better offensive capabilities.
The owners have invested heavily in the squad whenever we”ve missed out on the CL.Not qualifying for the CL tends to shock them into action...But when we start qualifying for the CL consistently they take their eye off the ball.They tend to accept status quo and they seem to be satisfied with just being a top 4 team.I agree our recruitment has improved recently but it looks like we will probably be paying for our old mistakes for a while yet. I don’t see us going out and blowing other teams out of the water for a haaland or anything which is a pity given the figures we’ve wasted on absolutely nothing over the last 8 years. I also don’t understand how the owners operate. They’ve left managers hanging for transfers when we look like finally kicking on. I’m sure it’s been hard for the management to plan around but hopefully this summer we can still bring in a starter or even 2.
I think a good striker and a creative winger instead of an inside forward would make the attack look a lot more cohesive and dangerous especially against the park the bus teams. A DM would shore up the backline and initiate attacks from deeper positions and allow us to play Pogba and Bruno. I think those tweaks could definitely bring us on.
The problem is finding the right players. Are the glazers going to insist on older free transfers to placehold or just keep buying young players for the future? Are the right players for next season available for us in this pool? It’ll be very interesting to see what Murtough and co end up doing and what kind of budget they have. Its looking to me like the whole setup has become even more geared towards leaving plenty of space in the squad for youth players from next season on. I’m excited to see how the likes of Hannibal and Amad do but an injury crisis aside I’m really not sure if it’ll be enough football for young lads to develop properly. Let’s see how it goes anyway
They stopped backing Mourinho in the transfer window a few seasons ago and I seriously hope they don’t do the same to Ole...
Your comment about NFL is complete bullshit. The NFL has a salary cap and the salaries paid to NFL players are sourced by NFL revenue sharing platforms which are agreed upon by a collective bargaining agreement.
"Thus, to calculate the cap in simplest terms: 47% of NFL revenues is divided by 32—the number of NFL teams—to set the team cap number for the year. For 2020 that number was $198 million. For 2021 due to economic losses suffered from a year of playing largely without fans—that number will go down considerably. As that number has not been set yet, for our purposes we will estimate the 2021 cap to be $185 million."
Some pattern of play? Suggestion?
The absence of a clinical finisher really hurts us. We cant go another season with the front three being as weak as they have been this season. Maybe it’s just a one-off of a poor season by Martial, a good but disappointing season by Rashford and the inevitable sophomore slump by Greenwood, but we can’t go through this again and expect improved results.
To be fair if all of these things were off, we wouldn't be 2nd in the league.
We seem to have multiple flaws with players being the biggest, followed closely by coaching in my opinion.
Main problem I would say is the inconsistency of the players, we go from one game winning 9-0 then we lose 1-0, as much as sometimes we blame the coaches for not taking an earlier tactical decision etc, it is the players who are actually playing on the pitch and it is their job to outperform the opponent. Our first 11 can be considered good but as a PL title contender I don't think we are there, we just don't have the quality in all the areas and in the strikers department I think we are way way behind the top 6 teams and most of our exits in the cups this year have been about the team not performing or Bruno not having a good game, which is another issue as we have everything running through him and not enough good players around him to drive the team forward. We need another big clearout this summer and to start bringing players of a higher caliber..
We are badly coached. If Ole is to succeed, he needs a modern coach, who can coach the players to beat a low block. We shouldnt be playing with two pivots against the smaller teams and still getting over ran in midfield.
We wont win anything with this management and coaching set up. How we can be so inconsistent from game to game is soley on the coaching staff.
Players as good as they are, need to be coached to play a system. Look at Chelsea, after City they probably have the best squad, now having a good coach they are slowly turning the team around to be significantly better than they were under Lampard.
Ole is our Lampard. Might be loved by the fans but is tactically not up to it. If he was in charge of a Leicester or Leeds would he be able to do as well? If Brendan or Bielsa were in charge of United would they be able to do any better? Im certain they would.
We wont win anything with this management and coaching set up. How we can be so inconsistent from game to game is soley on the coaching staff.
Players as good as they are, need to be coached to play a system. Look at Chelsea, after City they probably have the best squad, now having a good coach they are slowly turning the team around to be significantly better than they were under Lampard.
Ole is our Lampard. Might be loved by the fans but is tactically not up to it. If he was in charge of a Leicester or Leeds would he be able to do as well? If Brendan or Bielsa were in charge of United would they be able to do any better? Im certain they would.
The brutal reality is that the clearout needs to include some of the bigger names too such as DDG & Martial because unless we are prepared to sell a couple of big assets then we may as well forget spending much more than around £60m this summer. However putting it back on topic there clearly needs to be a revamp with the coaching setup at the end but you get the impression that Ole sees absolutely no issue with Carrick/McKenna which is scary to say the least.
Out of curiosity, is it Ole’s fault when our forwards fail to convert on glorious chances?
More think the biggest problem is having No real good ST and a world class def mid so progba can b
It's abit of both, we need more trained attack rutine that is used in interval but also free play. But we surely need a real top ST
Where I would fault Ole, in this regard, is inadequately developing our forwards. We all know the potential of Rashford, Martial and Greenwood but none of those three are in any way more fully developed this season over last season. We all understand dips in form, but this is beyond that. And our front three all play isolation from each other. And then when chances do arise, we’ve been poor at finishing them.
If Martial didn't suck we'd be alot closer to City and all these nonsense threads would still pop up complaining about something silly
It's neither.
United's problems on the field are structural. We have an incompatible starting center half pairing and a right flank that can't stretch teams as consistently as the left flank does.
Off field the board has twice wasted the summer transfer window. Making significant progress much slower than it should be.