Which defensive midfielder?

[Mr Smith]

There's an argument we really don't need a classic DM if we have midfielders that are all hard working (Fernandez, Fred, McTominay). What we do need is creativity from deep, someone with good passing range and who doesn't lose the ball under pressure.

 

[Adnan]

Partey

Marca reported that Partey has a release clause and many English clubs were willing to trigger it. But Partey is more than happy playing under Simeone as long he's part of the first 11, which he is and doesn't want to leave.

 

[Adnan]

Carrick was never really a proper holding midfielder like Fernandinho or Busquets. He always played better with someone along side him rather than 2 in front.

He didn't undergo a major change under SAF though, he was largely the same player he was when we bought him, just much more experienced.

Carrick was a assist machine at Spurs playing a more advanced role and even finished joint first one season for assists. At United he played a more withdrawn role next to Scholes.

 

[charlenefan]

We've never played with a DM for as long as I've watched United, just putting that out there

 

[Adnan]

We've never played with a DM for as long as I've watched United, just putting that out there

We have played with DMs, just not solo. I would term Keane as a defensive box to box midfielder who could sit in front of the back 4 if needs be. And that is the profile we should go for IMO someone who is a allrounder at a high level.

 

[TsuWave]

Marca reported that Partey has a release clause and many English clubs were willing to trigger it. But Partey is more than happy playing under Simeone as long he's part of the first 11, which he is and doesn't want to leave.

Fair enough, but Marca says a lot of shit.

 

[Adnan]

Fair enough, but Marca says a lot of shit.

Tbh with you, he has even gone on record and said he doesn't want to leave Atleti. He might have a low buyout, but if he doesn't want to leave, then it's pointless even pursuing him.

 

[thepolice123]

We've never played with a DM for as long as I've watched United, just putting that out there

We definitely played with a DM.

But we never had limited DMs solely for defensive purposes.

 

[Class of 63]

Ones injury prone and the others played at the back and at other teams and proved to not be good enough overall. We cant waste another season hitting and hoping.

They're both quick, strong as an ox, enjoy a tackle and have a good range of pass, and it's probably the only position you don't need years of experience to perfect the role, you've either got it or you haven't, and till we try them we'll never know, it would be foolish to throw them in now but pre-season is ideal to see if they have the discipline for the position. And it might save us a small fortune to be spent elsewhere.

 

[thepolice123]

They're both quick, strong as an ox, enjoy a tackle and have a good range of pass, and it's probably the only position you don't need years of experience to perfect the role, you've either got it or you haven't, and till we try them we'll never know, it would be foolish to throw them in now but pre-season is ideal to see if they have the discipline for the position. And it might save us a small fortune to be spent elsewhere.

Didn't we once had Smith and Rio in DM? Both of them were horrendous in it. It definitely showed you need more than physicality, good passing and sliding tackles to play that position.

IMO DM is one of the roles you need the most experience. Its not something you can just get by on pure talent alone.

 

[gza the genius]

They're both quick, strong as an ox, enjoy a tackle and have a good range of pass, and it's probably the only position you don't need years of experience to perfect the role, you've either got it or you haven't, and till we try them we'll never know, it would be foolish to throw them in now but pre-season is ideal to see if they have the discipline for the position. And it might save us a small fortune to be spent elsewhere.

Why not give Jones a go again too while we’re at it?

 

[Class of 63]

Didn't we once had Smith and Rio in DM? Both of them were horrendous in it. It definitely showed you need more than physicality, good passing and sliding tackles to play that position.

IMO DM is one of the roles you need the most experience. Its not something you can just get by on pure talent alone.

Beg to differ, you just need game understanding and positional discipline whether you are 16 or 32

Why not give Jones a go again too while we’re at it?

Funny enough it was Jones playing in that position for nearly a year in the Premier League that convinced SAF that he was a player we just could not miss out on.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Brozovic. But he would cost way too much

 

[Bondi77]

Michael Carrick was a box to box midfielder before he joined United. And I remember one season at Spurs where he finished with the joint most assists in a season. He joined United and Fergie moulded him into a DM or DLP if you want to call it that. Most wouldn't have considered him a specialist for the DM role.

Fernandinho at Shakhtar was a dynamic box to box midfielder and even played as a #10 for them. He moved to City aged 27 and is now considered one of the finest DMs in the league.

If we want to adopt a modern attacking approach going forward then IMO we have to sign a DM who fits the following profile. Someone mobile, good passing ability and can also help in attack. Kalvin Phillips, Ruben Neves, Declan Rice IMO are not good enough and we should steer clear.

I would personally hope we look for a DM that ticks the aforementioned above and my standout pick would be Denis Zakaria who is a good passer, great pace/athleticism and can also help with transitioning play from defence and is very mobile. He could easily play the DM role solo due to his skillset and physicality and would provide multiple solutions to any problems for a prospective coach.

I just watched him on YouTube and he looks good but I bet we would be quoted 40-50 mil for him and that is purely because it is Utd.
This is why I make suggestions about Timbo and Axel because if we go after a young player that is performing well at the time and has potential we are quoted the price for the finished article.

 

[Valuedrug]

If we want to eventually graduate to a possession based style capable of reasonably safe, sustained pressure, I think we need a specialist DM to facilitate that transition. Like others have said, it seems to be a basic building block of the model employed by other top teams. For games where we choose to be more reactive, two or three high energy work horses like McTominay could be enough.

Personally, I would love to see us employ another strategy that doesn’t mimic the likes of City. But that’s just my own misplaced desire for United to be unique, I suppose. And nostalgia is an especially awful guiding principle if we ever want to reclaim our spot in the top tier again.

We will almost certainly have to dip into the market for this one though. People still taking about “Timbo” in 2020, just blows my mind. I’m all for leveraging our current players, but let’s stay grounded. Garner and Levitt sadly seem to have dropped off the face of the earth again, so I doubt they will up for the challenge anytime soon.

 

[MichaelRed]

Has to be Partey for me. Supposed low buyout clause vs an Ndidi who will end up costing us 80m+ as Leicester know they can demand the big money now. Really don't see us signing another player from them for a while after Maguire.

 

[Adnan]

Has to be Partey for me. Supposed low buyout clause vs an Ndidi who will end up costing us 80m+ as Leicester know they can demand the big money now. Really don't see us signing another player from them for a while after Maguire.

Partey is very content and happy under Simeone or he would've left last season.

 

[BigLebowski007]

I would try to find a tempo setter, something like Carrick, Pirlo, Verratti... I'd love Ndidi, but I'm not sure he fits that role. He's similar to McT and Fred, though I guess he plays closer to defence.
I guess Saul would fit the profile but haven't watched Atletico much (they are too boring).
If we decide with McT, Fred and Bruno as starters, we keep Matić as replacement, maybe we should bring someone young to develop, like Tonali.

 

[saivet]

Partey is very content and happy under Simeone or he would've left last season.

Is there the potential that Simeone could leave at the end of the season?

They're in 3rd but the table looks pretty tight for between 3rd and 6th, so they could even miss out on CL.

 

[Adnan]

Is there the potential that Simeone could leave at the end of the season?

They're in 3rd but the table looks pretty tight for between 3rd and 6th, so they could even miss out on CL.

Maybe he could leave, but it seems as long as he's still at Atleti, the players will stick with him.

 

[thepolice123]

Brozovic. But he would cost way too much

Watched Inter a few times this season. Personally, I don't think he defensively strong enough, especially if we have plans to play Pogba and Bruno in the same midfield. He functions similarly to how Pjanic plays for Juventus.

Cracking player though.

 

[Cassidy]

Partey is very content and happy under Simeone or he would've left last season.

His agent said he would like to play in the PL though didnt he? I hope we test the waters

 

[Andycoleno9]

Watched Inter a few times this season. Personally, I don't think he defensively strong enough, especially if we have plans to play Pogba and Bruno in the same midfield. He functions similarly to how Pjanic plays for Juventus.

Cracking player though.

He is defensively very good. Covers back line and dictates tempo. Top player for that position. In NT he is the one who is doing all dirty job for Rakitic and Modric. But as i said; i doubt that we will spend another 60-70 mil on midfielder

 

[Jinn]

I'm tempted to say that we should get Grealish and play Pogba as DM.

 

[Andycoleno9]

I'm tempted to say that we should get Grealish and play Pogba as DM.

You know what? If Pogba has different character he would be great on that position because he is a complete midfielder.
But despite the fact that i would love to see class playmaking dmc i don't think that we need him that much. Fred should play it with Pogba and Bruno in front of him.
I know one thing; i don't want to see McT there because i think that dmc is also a playmaker and McT is not good on the ball.

 

[BigLebowski007]

I don't think we should count on Pogba at all. He'll be leaving in summer for sure. He is running out of contract. And even if he wants to stay he (and Raiola) will demand HUGE wage. And considering the amount of injuries and average games he had, he doesn't deserve tha pay raise atm imo. Could also do without all the Pogba/Raiola circus around the club.
Don't get me wrong though, he is a top quality player. And there is good chance he'll be excellent in his next club.

 

[Bestietom]

We have played with DMs, just not solo. I would term Keane as a defensive box to box midfielder who could sit in front of the back 4 if needs be. And that is the profile we should go for IMO someone who is a allrounder at a high level.

Zakaria would be the one then. A defensive box to box midfielder and ball winner.
I like Florentino Luis of Benfica, or Sandro Tonali also.

 

[Hawks2008]

Zakaria would be the one then. A defensive box to box midfielder and ball winner.
I like Florentino Luis of Benfica, or Sandro Tonali also.

They'd all be awesome, somehow I just get the feeling we'll ignore the position all together.

 

[Adnan]

Zakaria would be the one then. A defensive box to box midfielder and ball winner.
I like Florentino Luis of Benfica, or Sandro Tonali also.

Zakaria looks the most interesting player for the DM role. He can distribute the ball very well from deep and can also contribute to the attacking phase if required.

 

[Dion]

Carrick was a assist machine at Spurs playing a more advanced role and even finished joint first one season for assists. At United he played a more withdrawn role next to Scholes.

"Assist machine" Michael Carrick who got 4 and 6 league assists in his time at Tottenham (all but 2 of them from set pieces fwiw).

He got 3 for Man Utd the season after despite not taking set pieces.

He played in a double pivot with Davies or Jenas at Spurs, a role he played the vast majority of the time at United.

 

[Adnan]

"Assist machine" Michael Carrick who got 4 and 6 league assists in his time at Tottenham (all but 2 of them from set pieces fwiw).

He got 3 for Man Utd the season after despite not taking set pieces.

He played in a double pivot with Davies or Jenas at Spurs, a role he played the vast majority of the time at United.

Carrick was joint top with Mido for Assists is what I meant.

And him playing in a pivot for Spurs doesn't mean his role next to Scholes was the same. He even played many games for West Ham as a advanced midfielder and he was touted as a box to box midfielder.

 

[Kostov]

We've never played with a DM for as long as I've watched United, just putting that out there

Means nothing for this current team. Times change, the game has changed. We've never had a midfielder like Pogba for example. We need to take a look at our current midfielder and attackers, and what compliments this team properly.

IMO we do need a proper CDM, who alongside Bruno and Pogba/McTominay would compliment a front 3 of Rashford/Martial/Sancho.

 

[Dion]

Carrick was joint top with Mido for Assists is what I meant.

And him playing in a pivot for Spurs doesn't mean his role next to Scholes was the same. He even played many games for West Ham as a advanced midfielder and he was touted as a box to box midfielder.

He was top assists with Mido because Spurs didn't have anyone with a decent number of assists that season. And he took set pieces.

It was incredibly similar though, he was a deep sitting midfielder who progressed the play through passing, not through his own movements up the pitch. Just look at his performance in the 2006 world cup against Ecuador, which was what he had been doing at Spurs for 2 seasons.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/40132327

"This was one of those days when, in theory, he should have made a greater mark on the game. The Ecuadorean lineup, a basic 4-4-2, did not include a specialist player to link midfield and attack. In other words there were times when Carrick simply had nobody to pick up. He ought to have become more adventurous, ventured further forwards occasionally. Instead he sat back, often with only himself for company."
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2006/jun/26/worldcup2006.sport20

 

[eire-red]

I think the modern game has changed so much, especially the role of individual players in midfield. Traditionally, we've played with a midfield two of all rounders, contributing to all phases of play.

Now, especially at CL knockout stages, games are won and lost in midfield. To control the middle, I think you need a specialist DM who excels at ball winning and distribution from deep. Likewise a specialist box-to-box type to set the tempo, and someone to provide creativity.

I think that having all rounders is great, but you still need those specialist operators at the highest level who perform very specific and unique roles within the team, and I think midfield is an area where this rings true the most.

I think we're lacking both a DM and a box-to-box capable of dictating the game. Fred and McTominay are quality all round squad players but I just feel that they lack certain attributes (ball retention and creativity) to form part of an elite midfield trio (Bruno at the tip). For me, Zakaria and Verratti would be a solid pairing to fill those roles. A blend of aggression, physicality, ball retention, creativity and defensive awareness that would dovetail perfectly with a creative force ahead of them. Zakaria is attainable, Verratti probably not.

There are plenty of Zakaria/Ndidi/Partey/Casemiro etc who can all fill that DM role to an adequate level. For me, a Veratti, Arthur, Kroos, Modric, Thiago type player is usually the final piece of the jigsaw for most top teams.

 

[arthurka]

Zakaria would be mint but I would pay up for Neves we would be set for years.

 

[MadMike]

Zakaria would be mint but I would pay up for Neves we would be set for years.

I'm not that impressed by him. 33yo Moutinho always looks the better player next to him, whenever I see Wolves.

 

[TheRedHearted]

There's an argument we really don't need a classic DM if we have midfielders that are all hard working (Fernandez, Fred, McTominay). What we do need is creativity from deep, someone with good passing range and who doesn't lose the ball under pressure.

This could work - it all depends on how the unit works. When I play even if I’m feeling the urge to stride forward I look back - if my team is out numbered I track back. If there’s a player with immense space on them I’ll move in that area. Wan Bissaka can really be the player to track back or stay back if all or up. But if Bissaka is already up - it takes a selflessness to realize that one has to stay back to cover. I think Bruno, Fred and Mctominay all would have that instinct so it could very much work. The thing is RW needs to be incredibly strong since Bissaka is limited there already.
Don’t think Sancho is coming at all, I do think we seriously need to think about other options. If Ed is Sancho or bust chances we will bust. Hopefully Barcelona or Liverpool sign him sooner rather than later (those two are where I’d imagine he will go considering once Salah wins the league I feel like he might Salir himself out. The money they get for him should be good enough to fund them Sancho.

 

[simonhch]

For 3 midfield positions, we want a minimum of 5 options that are good enough to be starters. This is the minimum requirement for the amount of games that need to be played, and accounting for injuries. Personally I think we’d need 6. And you’d want the mix of players to enable you to play a variety of formations, against varying levels of opposition. Including attacking and defensive variations of each.

If we start with the four midfielders we should keep, Bruno, Pogba, Fred and McTominay, I would add two more players, one at each end of the attacking spectrum, to that list. Say Partey and Grealish.

This gives you so many options. Partey, Bruno, Pogba vs easier and mid level opponents. Partey, Fred/McT, Bruno/Pogba in tougher away games. Etc etc.

I’d say these are two affordable options that can greatly improve the quality and versatility of our midfield. While allowing for effective rotation of the midfield without having to completely change the system, or significantly lower the quality. It’s the minimum an elite club should achieve with its squad.

 

[Robbo*]

Zakaria would be mint but I would pay up for Neves we would be set for years.

agree - really rate Neves

 

[cyril C]

There's an argument we really don't need a classic DM if we have midfielders that are all hard working (Fernandez, Fred, McTominay). What we do need is creativity from deep, someone with good passing range and who doesn't lose the ball under pressure.

Bruno is not a DM. Even Fred is inadequate when partnering with Pogba. In short, only Matic and McTom are competent DM. Fred is showing his potential as a competent Box2box MF, while Bruno is a good AMF. Pogba can be either a B2B MF or AMF, when he shows up. If Matic stays then no need for another DMF. If Pogba stays AND show up then no need for another creative MF.