Which do we need more? DM or Back up creative midfielder

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Sancho will provide creativity too. What some of you're failing to understand IMO is that in a high press which Solskjaer favours, the DM doesn't need to create but rather provide defensive balance due to the high risk approach where we will create overloads all over. if one of Pogba or Fernandes isn't there then you still might have the possibility of Sancho and one other. Creativity can come from several positions and even the CBs and fullbacks will be there to create and can offer creativity in such a style. It's far more important to have defensive balance.
From what I've seen we are pretty inconsistent with the high press. These past few games from the restart has also shown very little indication that we play a high press maybe because we have most of the ball

If you think that Sancho Zakaria(as an 8) and one of Pogba or Bruno with the rest of the first 11 is enough to break down low blocks then fair enough. But Mctominay and Fred can do what Zakaria does playing as an 8. So that also means Sancho Fred(as an 8) and one of Pogba or Bruno with the rest of the 11 is also good enough to break down low blocks. Are they good enough to you? If they are then all we need is someone that provides defensive balance but if they are not enough then we need someone that provides defensive balance as well as being a very good passer which Zakaria is not
 
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BenitoSTARR

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From what I've seen we are pretty inconsistent with the high press. These past few games from the restart has also shown very little indication that we play a high press maybe because we have most of the ball

If you think that Sancho Zakaria(as an 8) and one of Pogba or Bruno is enough to break down low blocks then fair enough. But Mctominay and Fred can do what Zakaria does playing as an 8. So that also means Sancho Fred(as an 8) and one of Pogba or Bruno is good enough to break down low blocks. Are they good enough to you?
His evidence for the high press is based more on Solskjaer’s days at Molde.

I have seen what you have seen a team that sometimes presses but often delays attacks and sits ready to counter. We do not press at the same intensity or level of Liverpool/Borussia Mon etc which is reflected in our stats if you compare them.

I think he has an opinion that is not evidence based and is struggling to evidence beyond what he believes.
 

Xaviboy

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After the weekend game its clear to see we need another creative player for midfield going forward if we are to rest Pogba or Bruno. Jesse and Mata not good enough to step up and provide it. Think Sancho be difficult deal to get done with the fee being quoted about is true. Get Grealish in. Pogba, Bruno, Grealish, Matic, McTominey, Fred as options for the Midfield starting 11 and have Perreria, Garner and Mata in as squad options. No harm in having more creativity in the squad. If we are to rotate the team for different reasons then we need to see better options coming in.
 

Adnan

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I’ll have a look at one today, is there a game you’d recommend? I’ll be honest I’ve been more lax on watching the U23s this season.

Your opening statement is contradictory. You say they have all the qualities of one another but now are saying they aren’t the same? Just admit you don’t know as much about Koopmeiners. It’s not a problem but now you’re digging holes when it’s easier just say you prefer Zakaria and of your limited experience of Koopmeiners (possibly a YouTube compilation) you don’t want him.

Garner is not the same with all the qualities of Koopmeiners can you explain to me what qualities you believe Garner has that match Koopmeiners? How is Garner on free kicks, penalties, long balls, progressive passes, captaining a side, positioning, style, composure etc.

Give me good analysis of both players ideally stats too and I’ll consider your argument otherwise I just think you don’t know a lot about either Garner or Koop or potentially both.

We aren’t Molde.
Mainz, Dortmund, Liverpool aren't the same but eventually the same brand of football is expected by Klopp.

Marco Rose; Julien Nagelsmann, Marcelo Bielsa, Guardiola- the list is endless.

I'll analyse Koopmeiners when he's playing at a good level consistently in a major European League - England, Spain, Germany, France, Italy.
 

Infra-red

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It seems that two decent creative attacking midfield players are about to go down with their ships... who do we think would represent better value as a rotation option for us - Buendia from a relegated Norwich or Grealish from a relegated Villa?
 

BenitoSTARR

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Mainz, Dortmund, Liverpool aren't the same but eventually the same brand of football is expected by Klopp.

Marco Rose; Julien Nagelsmann, Marcelo Bielsa, Guardiola- the list is endless.

I'll analyse Koopmeiners when he's playing at a good level consistently in a major European League - England, Spain, Germany, France, Italy.
So you admit you don’t know anything about Koopmeiners?

FINALLY!

Thank you for admitting it. So what we have here is a difference of opinion based on your observations of Zakaria only.

You clearly have never seen Koopmeiners to form any kind of opinion as to why he is or is not suited to United and so quite why you’ve felt the need to force Zakaria down my throat is beyond me.

If you don’t rate anybody outside of the traditional top 5 leagues that’s your perogative but to entirely dismiss Dutch football is stupid. The majority of Dutch players start out in ED it’s a very well respected league for quality players who go onto bigger and better things and I think it’s ignorant to ignore a player completely because of it. Very narrow minded.
 

BenitoSTARR

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It seems that two decent creative attacking midfield players are about to go down with their ships... who do we think would represent better value as a rotation option for us - Buendia from a relegated Norwich or Grealish from a relegated Villa?
Better value? Well money wise Buendia. But Grealish is the better player IMO.
 

Adnan

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So you admit you don’t know anything about Koopmeiners?

FINALLY!

Thank you for admitting it. So what we have here is a difference of opinion based on your observations of Zakaria only.

You clearly have never seen Koopmeiners to form any kind of opinion as to why he is or is not suited to United and so quite why you’ve felt the need to force Zakaria down my throat is beyond me.

If you don’t rate anybody outside of the traditional top 5 leagues that’s your perogative but to entirely dismiss Dutch football is stupid. The majority of Dutch players start out in ED it’s a very well respected league for quality players who go onto bigger and better things and I think it’s ignorant to ignore a player completely because of it. Very narrow minded.
Why would I lie and admit I know nothing of Koopmeiners when i've discussed him here before you even brought him up in here. But I don't believe he's the type of player Ole will go for and i've given my reasons.

I never said I don't rate players from outside the major European leagues. And in Koopmeiners case it's difficult to decipher if he's the next Michael Carrick or the next Tom Huddlestone.
 

BenitoSTARR

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Why would I lie and admit I know nothing of Koopmeiners when i've discussed him here before you even brought him up in here. But I don't believe he's the type of player Ole will go for and i've given my reasons.

I never said I don't rate players from outside the major European leagues. And in Koopmeiners case it's difficult to decipher if he's the next Michael Carrick or the next Tom Huddlestone.
You won’t analyse him to evidence your opinion as you don’t rate the leagues.

You just have the eyes for Zakaria who you can’t back beyond just your opinion as you refuse to accept anyone who has done their research’s opinion and you also refuse to accept facts too.

Most people are open to debate when shown to be proven wrong would show humility and adapt their stance in accordance.

You are just rejecting all other views than that of Zakaria being the second coming.

One could argue Zakaria could turn into the next Djemba-Djemba.
 

Adnan

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You won’t analyse him to evidence your opinion as you don’t rate the leagues.

You just have the eyes for Zakaria who you can’t back beyond just your opinion as you refuse to accept anyone who has done their research’s opinion and you also refuse to accept facts too.

Most people are open to debate when shown to be proven wrong would show humility and adapt their stance in accordance.

You are just rejecting all other views than that of Zakaria being the second coming.

One could argue Zakaria could turn into the next Djemba-Djemba.
I've been in your camp regarding Koopmeiners and my post history can attest to that. But for me he's a interesting option for a specific play style and not for a high risk approach in the DM role. Under Solskjaer he would play as a #8 but I'm confident Ole won't sign him or even have him under consideration because he doesn't fit his style as a DM.
 

BenitoSTARR

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I've been in your camp regarding Koopmeiners and my post history can attest to that. But for me he's a interesting option for a specific play style and not for a high risk approach in the DM role. Under Solskjaer he would play as a #8 but I'm confident Ole won't sign him or even have him under consideration because he doesn't fit his style as a DM.
So what exactly do you think he lacks that would stop him covering the extra average 2.86m of Solskjaer’s defensive line?
 

Adnan

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So what exactly do you think he lacks that would stop him covering the extra average 2.86m of Solskjaer’s defensive line?
Mobility and pace in a high press which would require athletic and physical capabilities which he doesn't have. The 2.86m defensive line is only temporary imo and i've given my reasons as to why . The team is transitioning towards a certain style that sacrifices defensive stability for offensive gain. Unless McTominay is coached for the role I believe Solskjaer will buy a specific DM for the role to provide defensive balance.
 

BenitoSTARR

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Mobility and pace in a high press which would require athletic and physical capabilities which he doesn't have. The 2.86m defensive line is only temporary imo and i've given my reasons as to why . The team is transitioning towards a certain style that sacrifices defensive stability for offensive gain. Unless McTominay is coached for the role I believe Solskjaer will buy a specific DM for the role to provide defensive balance.
He’s quick enough to cover that ground though. He’s faster than Matic for example and mobility wise I’d say comparable to McTominay who isn’t exactly slow himself.

I don’t understand where the lack of physical qualities comes from? I’ve seen nothing of him all season to suggest he’s not physically able to handle the PL.
 

Adnan

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He’s quick enough to cover that ground though. He’s faster than Matic for example and mobility wise I’d say comparable to McTominay who isn’t exactly slow himself.

I don’t understand where the lack of physical qualities comes from? I’ve seen nothing of him all season to suggest he’s not physically able to handle the PL.
He would be deployed as a #8 and looks a interest prospect for that role in a high press. But imo it would be wasting him in a DM role in a high press because we'd be playing him in a role that doesn't suit him in this particular system I believe Ole's working towards.

I'd buy him and think he'd be a potential bargain but would deploy him as a #8 which would suit him much better and he'd also potentially give us the option of playing in a double pivot in games where we have to be a little cautious. Koopmeiners as the #8 and either Zakaria or Partey would suit us more imo.
 

BenitoSTARR

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He would be deployed as a #8 and looks a interest prospect for that role in a high press. But imo it would be wasting him in a DM role in a high press because we'd be playing him in a role that doesn't suit him in this particular system I believe Ole's working towards.

I'd buy him and think he'd be a potential bargain but would deploy him as a #8 which would suit him much better and he'd also potentially give us the option of playing in a double pivot in games where we have to be a little cautious. Koopmeiners as the #8 and either Zakaria or Partey would suit us more imo.
I appreciate your opinion on him positionally but it doesn’t answer what evidence you have for his mobility or physical attributes not being good enough. Yes someone like Zakaria is quicker and stronger but that doesn’t make anyone else not quick enough or strong enough.
 

Adnan

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I appreciate your opinion on him positionally but it doesn’t answer what evidence you have for his mobility or physical attributes not being good enough. Yes someone like Zakaria is quicker and stronger but that doesn’t make anyone else not quick enough or strong enough.
The evidence I have is from what i've seen off him. In a high press with the backline pushed high and with space to defend he will be vulnerable against the speed merchants. Such a offensive system doesn't suit his attributes/skillset in a role where the DM will be required to control defensive zones solo at times. That's why I suggest Zakaria or Partey for such a role because to maintain defensive balance, being physically and athletically gifted is important imo and they're both very smooth on the ball which is a plus and can distribute play.

Koopmeiners would be fine as a traditional CM but he doesn't have box to box capabilities from what i've seen so playing him in such a role would also be benefial and he can still dictate the tempo while someone like Zakaria who is known for dominating entire defensive zones puts the fires out. Zakaria can also be deployed as a box to box player which gives Ole more scope in a tactical sense.