Which striker should we sign this summer?

devilish

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Based on what I've seen. Rashford was terrible as our striker when Martial got injured and Greenwood looked overwhelmed when he played as our striker. This is why we signed Ighalo because it was a necessity and we were fecked if Martial got injured again. And this is why I think we shouldn't sign Gaich because other than Martial (who himself can be unreliable) we have no reliable striker and signing a 21 year old from Argentina to play in the premier league is not looking likely to solve that issue. My bad for missing the Lautaro Martinez point
I remember when we signed Andy Cole. I was too young to have a definite opinion about the guy but older cousin was fuming. According to him, he wasn't worth the money we spent for him.

My cousin was wrong of course but time and time again Andy proved to be an adequate but hardly a WC player. Throughout his career Sir Alex would try to replace him with 2 better players (Shearer and Batistuta) until he actually did replace him with RVN. Meanwhile Hoddle criticised his eye for goal and there were rumours back in the day that Cantona preferred Ole to him. Despite all his limitations Cole was a great servant of this club, a legend and he was a key player in our treble side. So how could that be possible?

I'd say the player's attitude helped and of course the manager's brilliance in exploiting Cole's strengths to the full. However the fact that Cole played in a top top team which created assists out of Lulz was a key factor as well.

There are many decent but not top players who ended up winning a lot thanks to being part of a top team. Sebastiano Rossi is a classic example to that. I think Berlusconi himself once said that he left that tiny clink in AC Milan's armour simply because he could. Who needs a WC goalkeeper when one had Tassotti, Maldini, Baresi and Costacurta at the back?

I think Rashford is a decent but not a WC striker. He's more comfortable on the flanks and the potential of him becoming WC there is high. Therefore do I want to move him back as STK? The answer is no. But can he do the job there? Yes. Now let's go a bit FM crazy here. If rumours are right and we're getting Sancho and Graelish then our midfield will become one of the best in Europe. The former is an assist machine on the right, the latter is an assist machine in either CM or the left flank. Add those to Rashford, Bruno and possibly Pogba as well then we've got a midfield that can go toe to toe (but still lose) against the treble midfield. Those two players will cost a bomb though which means there's little cash for a striker. Considering that midfield will be brimming with creativity (Bruno, Sancho, Rashford, Graelish or/and Pogba) + we've got Martial and Greenwood upfront, can we risk going for a very promising SA talent on the cheap? I'd say yes especially since we can also rely on Rashford who, will be having top service, this time round.

I understand why most of you are terrified of us signing Argentinians. Our record with them is hardly great. However I assure you that most of the mistakes made were down to our club failing to do its homework instead.

a- Heinze was known to be a mercenary. He was a decent player but he was greedy
b- Both Veron and ADM didn't want to come to United. The latter burnt bridges at Real, he wanted to go to PSG and we kind of sabotaged the deal by offering Real more money. Meanwhile Veron got involved in the passport scandal and he thought that if he stayed in Italy any longer he'll go to jail. Once the situation calmed down he wanted to go back but no one could afford him
c- Tevez is Tevez. He stays a few years, he wins a lot there and then he moves on.That's how the guy works
d- Rojo was shit.

Young Argentinian players who never left SA are different. They are hungry to prove themselves and make as much money as possible simply because they don't want to go back into poverty. Sure for most of them their football career is something to exploit and make as much money as possible. However at this stage it can play to our advantage. If we sign Gaich and he becomes a star with us then who cares if in 2-3 years time he ends up at Real for 100m? Especially if by that time Greenwood is old enough to own the position.
 
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Lennon7

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We need a striker who can score goals for us over the next 2 or 3 years and then start looking at having Greenwood as our man.

If we go all out on the next top striker I think it’s bad news for Greenwood. What would singing say Boadu or another young forward accomplish for the short term? We’ve got a top young talent we just need to plug the gap upfront for now and I think Jiminez would do that brilliantly.
 

gajender

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I remember when we signed Andy Cole. I was too young to have a definite opinion about the guy but older cousin was fuming. According to him, he wasn't worth the money we spent for him. Actually he had doubts if he was as good as Gillespie.

My cousin was wrong of course but time and time again Andy proved to be an adequate but hardly a WC player. Throughout his career Sir Alex would try to replace him with 2 better players (Shearer and Batistuta) until he actually did replace him with RVN. Meanwhile Hoddle criticised his eye for goal and there were rumours back in the day that Cantona preferred Ole to him. Despite all his limitations Cole was a great servant of this club, a legend and he was a key player in our treble side. So how could that be possible?

I'd say the player's attitude helped and of course the manager's brilliance in exploiting Cole's strengths to the full. However the fact that Cole played in a top top team which created assists out of Lulz was a key factor as well. I always say that if we had Batistuta/Shearer instead of him in that much dreaded semi final against Dortmund we would have a 4th CL trophy under our name.

There are many decent but not top players who ended up winning a lot thanks to being part of a top team. Sebastiano Rossi is a classic example to that. I think Berlusconi himself once said that he left that tiny clink in AC Milan's armour simply because he could. Who needs a WC goalkeeper when one had Tassotti, Maldini, Baresi and Costacurta at the back?

I think Rashford is a decent but not a WC striker. He's more comfortable on the flanks and the potential of him becoming WC there is high. Therefore do I want to move him back as STK? The answer is no. But can he do the job there? Yes. Now let's go a bit FM crazy here. If rumours are right and we're getting Sancho and Graelish then our midfield will become one of the best in Europe. The former is an assist machine on the right, the latter is an assist machine in either CM or the left flank. Add those to Rashford, Bruno and possibly Pogba as well then we've got a midfield that can go toe to toe (but still lose) against the treble midfield. Those two players will cost a bomb though which means there's little cash for a striker. Considering that midfield will be brimming with creativity (Bruno, Sancho, Rashford, Graelish or/and Pogba) + we've got Martial and Greenwood upfront, can we risk going for a very promising SA talent on the cheap? I'd say yes especially since we can also rely on Rashford who, will be having top service, this time round.
Not to mention our attacking options this season were pretty thin so injury to Rashford or Martial upset the whole balance of our attack but with Sancho's addition plus Bruno and hopefully Pogba creating buying young cheap potential Striker would not be such a big gamble.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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Think we'll get Josh King.

Reason being:

Premier League proven
Loves the club
Versatile (can play anywhere across the frontline)
Hard working
Blistering pace
Good age
Won't mind being a squad player
Be on relatively low wage
 

SweetRightFoot

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Do you watch him?
Not religiously but I've watched his highlight reels and all his goals from the last couple years. Scores a lot of tap-ins and gets set up by a flick on or cutback to score quite a lot too. Rarely seems to beat players with pace or strength. Good link up play but nothing special. Seems strange but you can tell he used to play futsal, seems to score futsal goals. Finds a pocket of space, quick change of feet and then fire it into the roof of the net from close range. I think the PL would be too much for him, especially at 29.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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I remember when we signed Andy Cole. I was too young to have a definite opinion about the guy but older cousin was fuming. According to him, he wasn't worth the money we spent for him.

My cousin was wrong of course but time and time again Andy proved to be an adequate but hardly a WC player. Throughout his career Sir Alex would try to replace him with 2 better players (Shearer and Batistuta) until he actually did replace him with RVN. Meanwhile Hoddle criticised his eye for goal and there were rumours back in the day that Cantona preferred Ole to him. Despite all his limitations Cole was a great servant of this club, a legend and he was a key player in our treble side. So how could that be possible?

I'd say the player's attitude helped and of course the manager's brilliance in exploiting Cole's strengths to the full. However the fact that Cole played in a top top team which created assists out of Lulz was a key factor as well.

There are many decent but not top players who ended up winning a lot thanks to being part of a top team. Sebastiano Rossi is a classic example to that. I think Berlusconi himself once said that he left that tiny clink in AC Milan's armour simply because he could. Who needs a WC goalkeeper when one had Tassotti, Maldini, Baresi and Costacurta at the back?

I think Rashford is a decent but not a WC striker. He's more comfortable on the flanks and the potential of him becoming WC there is high. Therefore do I want to move him back as STK? The answer is no. But can he do the job there? Yes. Now let's go a bit FM crazy here. If rumours are right and we're getting Sancho and Graelish then our midfield will become one of the best in Europe. The former is an assist machine on the right, the latter is an assist machine in either CM or the left flank. Add those to Rashford, Bruno and possibly Pogba as well then we've got a midfield that can go toe to toe (but still lose) against the treble midfield. Those two players will cost a bomb though which means there's little cash for a striker. Considering that midfield will be brimming with creativity (Bruno, Sancho, Rashford, Graelish or/and Pogba) + we've got Martial and Greenwood upfront, can we risk going for a very promising SA talent on the cheap? I'd say yes especially since we can also rely on Rashford who, will be having top service, this time round.

I understand why most of you are terrified of us signing Argentinians. Our record with them is hardly great. However I assure you that most of the mistakes made were down to our club failing to do its homework instead.

a- Heinze was known to be a mercenary. He was a decent player but he was greedy
b- Both Veron and ADM didn't want to come to United. The latter burnt bridges at Real, he wanted to go to PSG and we kind of sabotaged the deal by offering Real more money. Meanwhile Veron got involved in the passport scandal and he thought that if he stayed in Italy any longer he'll go to jail. Once the situation calmed down he wanted to go back but no one could afford him
c- Tevez is Tevez. He stays a few years, he wins a lot there and then he moves on.That's how the guy works
d- Rojo was shit.

Young Argentinian players who never left SA are different. They are hungry to prove themselves and make as much money as possible simply because they don't want to go back into poverty. Sure for most of them their football career is something to exploit and make as much money as possible. However at this stage it can play to our advantage. If we sign Gaich and he becomes a star with us then who cares if in 2-3 years time he ends up at Real for 100m? Especially if by that time Greenwood is old enough to own the position.
If we were to focus our spending on Grealish and Sancho leaving us with as little as 9m for a back up striker then I dont think that's wise. Seems a bit too FM. I also don't get the Gaich recommendations. He's a young striker in Argentina scoring goals and we have Greenwood who is younger doing the same thing in the toughest league in the world. The odds are high that Gaich would struggle to adapt and what happens then when Martial gets injured. Our options would be to play Rashford who struggles as the main striker or to play Greenwood who is not ready yet for the role or to play Gaich who has failed to adapt.
 
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jamesjimmybyrondean

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Not religiously but I've watched his highlight reels and all his goals from the last couple years. Scores a lot of tap-ins and gets set up by a flick on or cutback to score quite a lot too. Rarely seems to beat players with pace or strength. Good link up play but nothing special. Seems strange but you can tell he used to play futsal, seems to score futsal goals. Finds a pocket of space, quick change of feet and then fire it into the roof of the net from close range. I think the PL would be too much for him, especially at 29.
I think be can do well. He was the one that knocked us out in the CL if I remember correctly but asides from that he's very agile, a bit like Suarez. He scored goals in Spain and has done it in France, he can do it in England. Nothing is really sure in the end. I thought Ighalo would flop based on his last season in the premier league and spending his last years in China. Anyways the point of Ben Yedder is to have a solid back up striker and one that offers something different to the team which he can do
 

Sparky Rhiwabon

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I think all these big names are simply not possible right now in the current climate, I think we may try to make Ighalo permanent for a small fee like 10m odd, as he has settled down nicely and has the right attitude, or not sign anyone at all.
Doesn’t the current climate make it more possible?
 

devilish

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If we were to focus our spending on Grealish and Sancho leaving us with as little as 9m for a back up striker then I dont think that's wise. Seems a bit too FM. I also don't get the Gaich recommendations. He's a young striker in Argentina scoring goals and we have Greenwood who is younger doing the same thing in the toughest league in the world. The odds are high that Gaich would struggle to adapt and what happens then when Martial gets injured. Our options would be to play Rashford who struggles as the main striker or to play Greenwood who is not ready yet for the role or to play Gaich who has failed to adapt.
I think that if our valuation for Pogba is met then he's off. Graelish's deal might or might not depend on it, depending on what Aston Villa will be asking for the player. If lets say they ask 70m-80m for him then the deal will be off the table however if they ask for 40m then there's every chance that United would sign him up. That would make sure that they have a ready made/cheap replacement for Pogba once he fecks off.

Regarding Gaich it will all depend on how good the player is. I don't want to generalise but from my experience in the Serie A I find that Argentinians tend to be far more combative then their Brazilian cousins.They would do their very best to succeed and a big chunk of them were able to move to a much difficult league and do well from day 1.

Seba Veron is currently working as a DOF with Estudiantes de La Plata and his United links were instrumental for the club to sign Rojo on loan. I am sure then he's more then happy to give Ole his opinion about the player. Considering the low fee involved and the fact that we already have Rashford, Martial and Greenwood who can play upfront then I think he's worth the risk. If the boy is genuinely talented of course.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Signs points to us getting a back up striker and spending little for one. We almost got Josh King in January and if we did this thread wouldn't have existed. Reliable sources have also stated our intentions of making Ighalo permanent. Reality is we don't want to spend much for a striker and he's going to be back up to Martial. So this takes out the likes of Jimenez, Harry Kane etc.

I'd say we don't want to spend more than 30m for a striker. If that's the case then for me it's Ben Yedder > Dembele (if he's cheap) > Edouard > Ighalo > King
 

BenitoSTARR

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Longstaff had a 50m price tag. With a 12m minimum fee clause this guy will cost us next to nothing.

I love Argentinians. They might be a bit greedy but they will give their 100% especially in the early part of their career when they want to prove themselves. If the guy has talent then at worst he becomes like Luataro M who will feck off to Barcelona for a crazy fee. At best we end up with a Javier Zanetti who'll stay at the club forever.
This is a load of rubbish. Nationality Is no indication of anything other than where they were born. Assigning a trait to an entire nation is at best misguided and at worst potentially a bit racist.

They might be a bit greedy? Jesus Christ!

Think we'll get Josh King.

Reason being:

Premier League proven
Loves the club
Versatile (can play anywhere across the frontline)
Hard working
Blistering pace
Good age
Won't mind being a squad player
Be on relatively low wage
Makes the most sense. I mean he’s not the best but he knows the league and with one year left wouldn’t cost a lot.

I guess I’d be happy with it if we got Sancho.
 

devilish

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This is a load of rubbish. Nationality Is no indication of anything other than where they were born. Assigning a trait to an entire nation is at best misguided and at worst potentially a bit racist.

They might be a bit greedy? Jesus Christ!


Makes the most sense. I mean he’s not the best but he knows the league and with one year left wouldn’t cost a lot.

I guess I’d be happy with it if we got Sancho.
Most SA players do not support European clubs. They perceive football as a highly lucrative job that will drag them and most of their family out of poverty. There's nothing wrong with that. I work for the money as I am sure you do yourself. However don't expect many to do sacrifices that most British/2nd-3rd generation fans would do to play for our favourite club. That rarely happens.

If you read my posts I am actually in favour of buying Argentinian players from SA. They represent a good mix of talent and work attitude all wrapped up by realistic fees. Now if one of them ends up loving the club just as Zanetti did with Inter then that would be great. If not, then at least we can do some great profit out of it.
 

BenitoSTARR

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Most SA players do not support European clubs. They perceive football as a highly lucrative job that will drag them and most of their family out of poverty. There's nothing wrong with that. I work for the money as I am sure you do yourself. However don't expect many to do sacrifices that most British/2nd-3rd generation fans would do to play for our favourite club. That rarely happens.

If you read my posts I am actually in favour of buying Argentinian players from SA. They represent a good mix of talent and work attitude all wrapped up by realistic fees. Now if one of them ends up loving the club just as Zanetti did with Inter then that would be great. If not, then at least we can do some great profit out of it.
I understand what you said and have read everything in this thread. I still believe you are incorrectly assigning traits to an entire nation when it is far better to discuss the individual.

Any player wanting the best deal for himself and his family isn’t greed and painting an entire nationality as greedy and all wanting to prove themselves is just stupid. Of course every footballer who is young wants to prove themselves it’s not a trait exclusive to SA players.

I take no issue with a lot of what you have posted just that one post assigning traits to all players of one nation. I think it was lazy of you to do so and it’s an observation without merit. It’s no different to saying all Spanish players are technically gifted or Brazilians are all flair players it’s not true and a stereotype that’s just lazy analysis and suggests a lack of scouting snd research into that specific player.

There is absolutely no guarantee that an Argentinian player will love the club and stay or be sold on for great money what is far more likely is the failure to adapt and they’ll flop.

If you were to say I want this player because they seem to have the right attitude (regardless of nationality) and shouldn’t cost a lot so it’s a low risk investment it’s a far better way of expressing what I think you meant to get across.
 

devilish

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I understand what you said and have read everything in this thread. I still believe you are incorrectly assigning traits to an entire nation when it is far better to discuss the individual.

Any player wanting the best deal for himself and his family isn’t greed and painting an entire nationality as greedy and all wanting to prove themselves is just stupid. Of course every footballer who is young wants to prove themselves it’s not a trait exclusive to SA players.

I take no issue with a lot of what you have posted just that one post assigning traits to all players of one nation. I think it was lazy of you to do so and it’s an observation without merit. It’s no different to saying all Spanish players are technically gifted or Brazilians are all flair players it’s not true and a stereotype that’s just lazy analysis and suggests a lack of scouting snd research into that specific player.

There is absolutely no guarantee that an Argentinian player will love the club and stay or be sold on for great money what is far more likely is the failure to adapt and they’ll flop.

If you were to say I want this player because they seem to have the right attitude (regardless of nationality) and shouldn’t cost a lot so it’s a low risk investment it’s a far better way of expressing what I think you meant to get across.
Spanish/SA players tend to be more technically gifted then British ones because SA/Spanish kids are allowed to train for 8 hours a day as opposed to British kids who aren't. In terms of many SA players football is their only ticket out of poverty. That's not the case for the majority of English players. Sure not every Argentinian kid is better then every British kid but yes SA players tend to be better in terms of technique British born players. If you disagree then please list me 3-4 English players who can match Lionel Messi's and Diego Armando Maradona's technique. I can't think of any one really.

Now the majority of Argentinian kids see football as a way to drag themselves outside of poverty. They won't wank about Manchester United at night as a young Gary Neville would have probably done simply because they barely knew we existed and honestly they don't give a feck. The more money they make the more they are able to get their family and friends out of poverty. That greed is bad in some ways and good in others. Sure from a club perspective its bad because the guy will probably hop to 2-3 clubs before he retires. However its good because unlike many British kids who would settle for a JLingz type of career, these kids would work hard to try and reach the top. I've been following many Argentinian talents throughout my 35 years or so following the Serie A. Some were good, some were meah but I can't think of many who were happy to be, well, average.

Am I generalising? Of course I am. But we're on a football forum here not some political correctness debate at the United Nations.
 

BenitoSTARR

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Spanish/SA players tend to be more technically gifted then British ones because SA/Spanish kids are allowed to train for 8 hours a day as opposed to British kids who aren't. In terms of many SA players football is their only ticket out of poverty. That's not the case for the majority of English players. Sure not every Argentinian kid is better then every British kid but yes SA players tend to be better in terms of technique British born players. If you disagree then please list me 3-4 English players who can match Lionel Messi's and Diego Armando Maradona's technique. I can't think of any one really.

Now the majority of Argentinian kids see football as a way to drag themselves outside of poverty. They won't wank about Manchester United at night as a young Gary Neville would have probably done simply because they barely knew we existed and honestly they don't give a feck. The more money they make the more they are able to get their family and friends out of poverty. That greed is bad in some ways and good in others. Sure from a club perspective its bad because the guy will probably hop to 2-3 clubs before he retires. However its good because unlike many British kids who would settle for a JLingz type of career, these kids would work hard to try and reach the top. I've been following many Argentinian talents throughout my 35 years or so following the Serie A. Some were good, some were meah but I can't think of many who were happy to be, well, average.

Am I generalising? Of course I am. But we're on a football forum here not some political correctness debate at the United Nations.
I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree here. I don’t agree in judging players by nationality and I think it’s lazy to do so. Judge players on individual merit. You could pick literally thousands of Argentine footballers with low ability etc.

I do however think you’re now making a much better attempt at clarifying your initial comments.

The majority of British PL footballers come from working class backgrounds and they absolutely do throw everything into becoming a PL footballer.

I don’t think you can generalise that SA players just have better technique I think you have always have a few outstanding examples just like any nationality. Bringing up Maradonna and Messi to try and prove all SA players are better is such a non starter of an argument it’s embarrassing. Two generational talents does not mean it’s ok to say Argentines are greedy and work harder. Nor does it prove they are better technically then anyone else it just means you know the names of two world class players. I could say Best, Charlton, Gascoinge, Edwards etc but it no more proves me right or you.

I think it’s not right to call it greed. Everyone wants to make more money and a lot of the reasons are for good causes.

We can easily name hundreds of average Argentinian footballers it’s so arrogant to assume that having watched one league for a while you know everything about the mentality of a country you’ve probably never visited and of players you’ve never spoken to. Just because it’s prejudice you think is positive it doesn’t make it any less rubbish than an overtly racist comment. I’m not saying you’re racist for the record but you’re making gross judgements about an entire race with no solid evidence. The fact you acknowledge some weren’t good disproves straight away that well either end up with a great one club player like Zanetti or a sellable asset like Martinez. Look at Rojo and Di Maria.

I’m glad you recognise your generalisation I just think from what I’ve seen of your posts you’re better than generalising and contribute more than lazy stereotypes and I thought I’d try and get a better response from you.
 

fps

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Fair enough, opinions and all that.

Would it be a worthwhile investment to have a "focal point" option for the sake of tactical flexibility?
Ighalo was working beautifully in exactly this way, just a different kind of player doing simple things that were of his style, very very well.

It’s not Man Utd’s preferred way of playing so it makes sense if someone like Ighalo comes in and does it as a back-up role, but splashing on Jimenez? Risky.
 

fps

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Spanish/SA players tend to be more technically gifted then British ones because SA/Spanish kids are allowed to train for 8 hours a day as opposed to British kids who aren't. In terms of many SA players football is their only ticket out of poverty. That's not the case for the majority of English players. Sure not every Argentinian kid is better then every British kid but yes SA players tend to be better in terms of technique British born players. If you disagree then please list me 3-4 English players who can match Lionel Messi's and Diego Armando Maradona's technique. I can't think of any one really.

Now the majority of Argentinian kids see football as a way to drag themselves outside of poverty. They won't wank about Manchester United at night as a young Gary Neville would have probably done simply because they barely knew we existed and honestly they don't give a feck. The more money they make the more they are able to get their family and friends out of poverty. That greed is bad in some ways and good in others. Sure from a club perspective its bad because the guy will probably hop to 2-3 clubs before he retires. However its good because unlike many British kids who would settle for a JLingz type of career, these kids would work hard to try and reach the top. I've been following many Argentinian talents throughout my 35 years or so following the Serie A. Some were good, some were meah but I can't think of many who were happy to be, well, average.

Am I generalising? Of course I am. But we're on a football forum here not some political correctness debate at the United Nations.
This is a load of utterly cherry picked nonsense. Find me three Brits who match up to the touch of Walter Samuel! All Brits want easy careers like Lingard, except all those players who are much better than him who don’t. Ye gods.
 

BenitoSTARR

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This is a load of utterly cherry picked nonsense. Find me three Brits who match up to the touch of Walter Samuel! All Brits want easy careers like Lingard, except all those players who are much better than him who don’t. Ye gods.
I’m surprised he doubled down on trying to justify it rather than just admitting it was lazy and move on.
 

devilish

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This is a load of utterly cherry picked nonsense. Find me three Brits who match up to the touch of Walter Samuel! All Brits want easy careers like Lingard, except all those players who are much better than him who don’t. Ye gods.
You have yet to answer my question. 1 English player whose as technically gifted as Messi was. It's not that hard I guess
 

SweetRightFoot

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This is a load of rubbish. Nationality Is no indication of anything other than where they were born. Assigning a trait to an entire nation is at best misguided and at worst potentially a bit racist.

They might be a bit greedy? Jesus Christ!
Right so Spain doesn't produce technically gifted midfield maestros, italy doesn't produce tactically astute work horses, english players don't have a reputation for being rough, Brazil doesn't produce attacking magicians and Argentina doesn't produce players who play with their heart on their sleeve and don't like to play defense.

Obviously that's a bizarre statement to make but you've definitely proved to everyone you're definitely not racist, despite wilfully ignoring the cultural nuances of international football to back up some social justice agenda, so you've got that I guess.
 

devilish

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I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree here. I don’t agree in judging players by nationality and I think it’s lazy to do so. Judge players on individual merit. You could pick literally thousands of Argentine footballers with low ability etc.

I do however think you’re now making a much better attempt at clarifying your initial comments.

The majority of British PL footballers come from working class backgrounds and they absolutely do throw everything into becoming a PL footballer.

I don’t think you can generalise that SA players just have better technique I think you have always have a few outstanding examples just like any nationality. Bringing up Maradonna and Messi to try and prove all SA players are better is such a non starter of an argument it’s embarrassing. Two generational talents does not mean it’s ok to say Argentines are greedy and work harder. Nor does it prove they are better technically then anyone else it just means you know the names of two world class players. I could say Best, Charlton, Gascoinge, Edwards etc but it no more proves me right or you.

I think it’s not right to call it greed. Everyone wants to make more money and a lot of the reasons are for good causes.

We can easily name hundreds of average Argentinian footballers it’s so arrogant to assume that having watched one league for a while you know everything about the mentality of a country you’ve probably never visited and of players you’ve never spoken to. Just because it’s prejudice you think is positive it doesn’t make it any less rubbish than an overtly racist comment. I’m not saying you’re racist for the record but you’re making gross judgements about an entire race with no solid evidence. The fact you acknowledge some weren’t good disproves straight away that well either end up with a great one club player like Zanetti or a sellable asset like Martinez. Look at Rojo and Di Maria.

I’m glad you recognise your generalisation I just think from what I’ve seen of your posts you’re better than generalising and contribute more than lazy stereotypes and I thought I’d try and get a better response from you.
I think I've said my piece. There's not much to add. My explanation is quite simple. One tend to work harder when his very life and that of his family depends on it especially in a country were football is like religion and people tend to live, think and breathe only of football. Poverty in Argentina is often absolute widespread poverty not relative poverty. Its not something that someone who lived in a 1st country economy can't comprehend.

I don't remember Charlton play (although my old man does and he think he was nowhere near to Maradona) but I do remember Gazza and I ensure you that you can't compare him to Messi let alone to Maradona. Gazza was a decent player, one who did fairly well in the Serie A of the time but was hardly the type of player Serie A fans would remember as a top top player. Let be PC and say he did better in the Serie A then Wilkins, Rush, Blissett and Walker, the latter 3 ending up proving to be seriously out of depth there. However he was nowhere near to Maradona. The guy took an average Napoli side to Serie A success and often did so by single hand idly dismantling some of the best and meanest defences in football history.
 
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devilish

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Right so Spain doesn't produce technically gifted midfield maestros, italy doesn't produce tactically astute work horses, english players don't have a reputation for being rough, Brazil doesn't produce attacking magicians and Argentina doesn't produce players who play with their heart on their sleeve and don't like to play defense.

Obviously that's a bizarre statement to make but you've definitely proved to everyone you're definitely not racist, despite wilfully ignoring the cultural nuances of international football to back up some social justice agenda, so you've got that I guess.
I don't know why I created such an uproar to be honest. I concede that the use of the word greed was maybe misplaced although I did went into great pains to explain my point in detail. However I see nothing wrong in saying that Argentinian players tend to be more technically gifted then the average British dude. A big chunk of these guys only live for football.

There's also a reason to it too and was highlighted by Sir Alex himself. He once said that the British kids tend to be less technically gifted then their Spanish counterparts simply because the former aren't allowed to professionally train for more then few hours each day. Now imagine how these kids tend to compare with kids who live in a country were football is a religion and their only ticket out of poverty.

That doesn't mean that every Argentinian kid > British kid. That's silly.
 

red woppit

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Anyway, back to the thread. I would sign Ighalo on a two year contract. Why,?
1/- He's already here, training with the squad.
2/- He seems to have fitted in very well.
3/- It seems that he would be ok with sitting on the bench for some games.
4/- A new player would take time to gel with the squad, and could possibly not be happy to be on the bench.
5/- He takes up positions in and around the box that no one else in the squad does.
6/- He's a fan of the club.
 

BenitoSTARR

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You have yet to answer my question. 1 English player whose as technically gifted as Messi was. It's not that hard I guess
It’s not relevant to the argument hence why he said you were cherry picking it’s like saying pick 1 Argentinan whose scored more goals that Alan Shearer in the PL etc.
Right so Spain doesn't produce technically gifted midfield maestros, italy doesn't produce tactically astute work horses, english players don't have a reputation for being rough, Brazil doesn't produce attacking magicians and Argentina doesn't produce players who play with their heart on their sleeve and don't like to play defense.

Obviously that's a bizarre statement to make but you've definitely proved to everyone you're definitely not racist, despite wilfully ignoring the cultural nuances of international football to back up some social justice agenda, so you've got that I guess.
As I’ve said before I think it’s lazy to just assume because of a players nationality they play a certain way. I take no issue in people saying things like recently a lot of technically gifted Spaniards have emerged and this could be due to the extra training they can have from a young age.

I could point out many players from each of those nationalities that play nothing like you describe. My point isn’t that these players don’t exist more than if you are trying to say we should sign a player it should be based on how good they are and what their actual qualities and traits are not based purely on what the stereotype of their nationality is.

I do not willfully ignore cultural nuances what I am trying to point out is that just because you have some players that fit that criteria to brand an entire nation the same is stupid.

I have no social justice agenda more wanting to point out that just being Argentinian doesn’t automatically make you technical and passionate or guaranteed to be the next Messi, Martinez, Maradonna or Zanetti and how ridiculous the original post was.

Hopefully you can see that I take only issue with that claim that a nationality instantly defines traits which is how it was put across.
I think I've said my piece. There's not much to add. My explanation is quite simple. One tend to work harder when his very life and that of his family depends on it especially in a country were football is like religion and people tend to live, think and breathe only of football. Poverty in Argentina is often absolute widespread poverty not relative poverty. Its not something that someone who lived in a 1st country economy can't comprehend.

I don't remember Charlton play (although my old man does and he think he was nowhere near to Maradona) but I do remember Gazza and I ensure you that you can't compare him to Messi let alone to Maradona. Gazza was a decent player, one who did fairly well in the Serie A of the time but was hardly the type of player Serie A fans would remember as a top top player. Let be PC and say he did better in the Serie A then Wilkins, Rush, Blissett and Walker, the latter 3 ending up proving to be seriously out of depth there. However he was nowhere near to Maradona. The guy took an average Napoli side to Serie A success and often did so by single hand idly dismantling some of the best and meanest defences in football history.
Lots of UK based footballers live and breath it and see it as there escape from gangs/poverty for themselves and families.

I don’t argue that it’s also the case in other countries but just because you’re Argentinian it doesn’t mean you’re going to be a success like Martinez and Zanetti. That is the issue I have with your post. Attributing success and traits based purely in nationality when numerous players from all over the world have done the same.

For example is Sadio Mane a success because of his nationality? Or was Rooney, Ronaldo, Beckenbaur, Crutff etc. It is lazy!

I agree Gazza wasn’t at that level but what I’m trying to get across is quality exists across all nations and regardless saying the names Messi and Maradonna doesn’t suddenly make you right that it’s ok to say an entire nation behaves a certain way when plenty of examples of non hardworking or low quality players exist it’s just you only ever hear about the absolute top quality ones that’s how football works the better you are the more you are known. How many Argentinians are called the next
Messi and Maradonna and fall on their arses how many England players are called the next Gazza etc it’s a stupid and lazy way to analyse any player and if you’re using it to recommend a 21yr old with a shit record in Argentina over numerous better options it shows a lack of serious consideration.
 

BenitoSTARR

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Anyway, back to the thread. I would sign Ighalo on a two year contract. Why,?
1/- He's already here, training with the squad.
2/- He seems to have fitted in very well.
3/- It seems that he would be ok with sitting on the bench for some games.
4/- A new player would take time to gel with the squad, and could possibly not be happy to be on the bench.
5/- He takes up positions in and around the box that no one else in the squad does.
6/- He's a fan of the club.
Definitely a sensible signing and low risk if we ca get him for <£10m
 

devilish

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It’s not relevant to the argument hence why he said you were cherry picking it’s like saying pick 1 Argentinan whose scored more goals that Alan Shearer in the PL etc.

For example is Sadio Mane a success because of his nationality? Or was Rooney, Ronaldo, Beckenbaur, Crutff etc. It is lazy!

I agree Gazza wasn’t at that level but what I’m trying to get across is quality exists across all nations and regardless saying the names Messi and Maradonna doesn’t suddenly make you right that it’s ok to say an entire nation behaves a certain way when plenty of examples of non hardworking or low quality players exist it’s just you only ever hear about the absolute top quality ones that’s how football works the better you are the more you are known. How many Argentinians are called the next
Messi and Maradonna and fall on their arses how many England players are called the next Gazza etc it’s a stupid and lazy way to analyse any player and if you’re using it to recommend a 21yr old with a shit record in Argentina over numerous better options it shows a lack of serious consideration.
Well Aguero has quite a goalscoring/games ratio. Its probably less then Shearer's but there again he plays in a way tougher league then Shearer did. Its a shame that Sir Alex wasn't able to persuade Edwards to sign Batigol for us. In a league were the likes of Dublin, Teddy and Phillips could become top scorers then Batigol would probably smash Shearer's record with little effort. I mean the guy was used to score goals against some of the finest defences in the world while playing in a crap side. Imagine what he would do against the likes of Keown and Peacock with the likes of Scholes, Beckham and Keane feeding him chances.

Also its not about nationality but about UPBRINGING. These people live in a country were football is everything and they can only rely on it to get away from absolute poverty. Its either football or nothing. I lived in the UK and while I know it can be tough for some people its nowhere near as tough as living in an Argentinian favela.

Which is why per capita, they have more technically gifted players then England as much as England tend to have players who are taller and more physical then the Argentinians. Of course we're comparing a small sample of players here ie players who can make it to the top. Gazza was (and probably still is) more technically gifted to Rojo just as Simeone would probably throw Angel Gomes to the stands in a tackle even at his ripe old age. However generally speaking Argentinians tend to produce some crazily technically gifted players just as England tend to produce some tall and tough players who appreciate honest hardworking football and Italians tend to be pretty tactical.
 

RkkMan

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Anyway, back to the thread. I would sign Ighalo on a two year contract. Why,?
1/- He's already here, training with the squad.
2/- He seems to have fitted in very well.
3/- It seems that he would be ok with sitting on the bench for some games.
4/- A new player would take time to gel with the squad, and could possibly not be happy to be on the bench.
5/- He takes up positions in and around the box that no one else in the squad does.
6/- He's a fan of the club.
Not for a dime above 10m and his parent club are demanding 20m which is overvalued in this market. Since they seem insistent on 20m better he goes back we sign someone else
 

BenitoSTARR

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Well Aguero has quite a goalscoring/games ratio. Its probably less then Shearer's but there again he plays in a way tougher league then Shearer did. Its a shame that Sir Alex wasn't able to persuade Edwards to sign Batigol for us. In a league were the likes of Dublin, Teddy and Phillips could become top scorers then Batigol would probably smash Shearer's record with little effort. I mean the guy was used to score goals against some of the finest defences in the world while playing in a crap side. Imagine what he would do against the likes of Keown and Peacock with the likes of Scholes, Beckham and Keane feeding him chances.

Also its not about nationality but about UPBRINGING. These people live in a country were football is everything and they can only rely on it to get away from absolute poverty. Its either football or nothing. I lived in the UK and while I know it can be tough for some people its nowhere near as tough as living in an Argentinian favela.

Which is why per capita, they have more technically gifted players then England as much as England tend to have players who are taller and more physical then the Argentinians. Of course we're comparing a small sample of players here ie players who can make it to the top. Gazza was (and probably still is) more technically gifted to Rojo just as Simeone would probably throw Angel Gomes to the stands in a tackle even at his ripe old age. However generally speaking Argentinians tend to produce some crazily technically gifted players just as England tend to produce some tall and tough players who appreciate honest hardworking football and Italians tend to be pretty tactical.
See this is a much better justification for your views and isn’t lazy analysis.

That’s what good debate should be not lazy stereotype here and that be that.

If you had written this at first there wouldn’t be an issue as you acknowledge now the nuances.

My only issue was with the lazy stereotype as for younger readers or those who are impressionable they might get the wrong idea that it’s ok to casually associate all the time. So thank you for clarifying and I hope you have a good day!
 

yo@Kirk

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My first choice would be Ighalo for 15m. Since Ighalo is in serious doubt, my second choice would be Edouard for 25m. This would set up a good competition between two young French youth internationals for first choice minutes at the important CF position in Ole's attack. A competition that would bring out the best in both players every minute they're on the pitch, imo.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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Makes the most sense. I mean he’s not the best but he knows the league and with one year left wouldn’t cost a lot.

I guess I’d be happy with it if we got Sancho.
Yeah. A selection of what could potentially be Rashford, Martial, Sancho, James, King and Greenwood for our front line is decent.
 

Macedonian Red

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Imagine if we buy Haaland in January. :))
We were looking for striker all january and thats why i am convinced that we will have new striker or Ighalo will stay.
 

Flanders Devil

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I don’t watch a lot of psg or much of Cavani lately. But if he’s contract situation expires June 30. Why not him for a free.
 

Garry Buck

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I don’t see why we are only going after a backup striker. If we had got Haaland it’s safe to say he would have not been a backup. I love Martial but he is never going to be a top striker.
 

BenitoSTARR

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I don’t watch a lot of psg or much of Cavani lately. But if he’s contract situation expires June 30. Why not him for a free.
Because all Uruguayans bite people ;)

Joking aside Cavani is older, has had a season curtailed by niggling injuries and would likely expect quite a high salary to join us. That coupled with the fact he’d likely want a starting role would probably be enough to put us off looking at him as an option.

Of course he’s been a great striker for PSG but he strikes me more as a future Serie A player than a PL striker as I think the transition to the PL at 33 might be a step too far for him.
 

BenitoSTARR

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I don’t see why we are only going after a backup striker. If we had got Haaland it’s safe to say he would have not been a backup. I love Martial but he is never going to be a top striker.
I think Haaland would have started as back up. Martial is a better striker than you think and I’d put good money on him getting 17+ PL goals next season.
 

fps

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You have yet to answer my question. 1 English player whose as technically gifted as Messi was. It's not that hard I guess
You don't understand logic in its most basic form, and you're not worth answering any more. Your smugness is a little embarrassing.
 

Manutd1990

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Spending more than 40m on a player that is not a significant upgrade on Martial doesn't make sense. Significant upgrades being Kane, Lewandowski, Icardi, Aubameyang, Aguero. All these names that are significant upgrades are either impossible, too expensive, too old to splash cash on or don't fit our style of
play.

Makes more sense to just buy a solid cheap backup and use him and Martial till a significant upgrade that fits us can be gotten. By then who knows maybe even Martial would be not need replacing or Greenwood would have come good
Agreed, buy someone who offers something different for now.. like Haller.

And wait for an elite upgrade, like Greenwood or maybe Haaland.
And who knows? Maybe Martial can develop into å 25 goal striker when he hits his prime.
 

croadyman

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Now that a strong source like Stone is reporting about Ighalo leaving,suggests to me we are definitely looking elsewhere
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Agreed, buy someone who offers something different for now.. like Haller.

And wait for an elite upgrade, like Greenwood or maybe Haaland.
And who knows? Maybe Martial can develop into å 25 goal striker when he hits his prime.
Is he doing well at West Ham