Who’s your money on being the bigger success in the PL: Wirtz or Cherki?

[giorno]

I won't argue against the importance of ball progression, breaking lines and dribbling but IMO you underestimate how important that pressing work by Dembele was. It's a big contributing factor to pinning opponents into their own half or even third. You won't find any possession oriented coach that doesn't emphasize the importance of counter pressing.

Yeah sure, it was good and everything, but it was the least of the guy's contributions overall

i find it infuriating that people talk about that as some kind of big difference between him and Mbappé when the reality is Dembele had a run being every bit as good and effective as a forward as the former

PSG finally got the lucky breaks going their way and didn't self-immolate under pressure. Team spirit and belief carried them, pressing was just one tool - and it only played a significant role in 2 matches at that, the latter against a team that was physically shattered

Even the big Luis Enrique quote about controlling everything was total bullcrap in the end, he outright said so recently and admitted the key to their victory was him giving his players more freedom instead

 

[Zehner]

Yeah sure, it was good and everything, but it was the least of the guy's contributions overall

i find it infuriating that people talk about that as some kind of big difference between him and Mbappé when the reality is Dembele had a run being every bit as good and effective as a forward as the former

PSG finally got the lucky breaks going their way and didn't self-immolate under pressure. Team spirit and belief carried them, pressing was just one tool - and it only played a significant role in 2 matches at that, the latter against a team that was physically shattered

Even the big Luis Enrique quote about controlling everything was total bullcrap in the end, he outright said so recently and admitted the key to their victory was him giving his players more freedom instead

IMO their final performance against Bayern had nothing to do with self-immolating under pressure. They were pinned back by Flick's Bayern (Bayern had 61% and around twice as many touches in PSG's and the neutral third) because they couldn't cope with the intensity of Flick's gung-ho pressing. Neymar was able to outplay that pressing a couple of times simply because he was Neymar and could dribble through 3 or 4 players back then but other than him and maybe Di Maria, the rest of the team was overwhelmed by having no time on the ball at all.

 

[giorno]

IMO their final performance against Bayern had nothing to do with self-immolating under pressure. They were pinned back by Flick's Bayern (Bayern had 61% and around twice as many touches in PSG's and the neutral third) because they couldn't cope with the intensity of Flick's gung-ho pressing. Neymar was able to outplay that pressing a couple of times simply because he was Neymar and could dribble through 3 or 4 players back then but other than him and maybe Di Maria, the rest of the team was overwhelmed by having no time on the ball at all.

Completely different team, and manager, and Neuer was the best player on the pitch in that final. Mbappé scores his chance instead of hitting it right at Neuer, it's a whole different match. Di Maria scores, different match. Chupo Moting scores, etc. PSG ultimately created more than Bayern

And of course the biggest break of all: Mbappé's (lack of) fitness and Verratti not even being fit enough to start the match

 

[antk]

My initial point was that I'd take elite playmakers with great work ethic such as [...] Wirtz ahead of [Mbappé] becaue their overall impsct outmatches his.

Doubling down on this is commendable. Great dedication to the craft.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Doubling down on this is commendable. Great dedication to the craft.

It's genuinely insane at this stage

 

[Zehner]

Doubling down on this is commendable. Great dedication to the craft.

Glad you like it

 

[Kwabs]

What's more realistic is that perhaps you may not know much about anything you've been talking about in this thread.
Proving it again with the Taarabt comparison here.

Well I clearly know a bit more than you, because I don't worship a player who is decent at best, with some eye-catching skills.

 

[Kwabs]

Not sure why that matters since ex pros express opinions that leave you scratching your head (putting it nicely) all the time, but I've played club football three to four times a week for more than 20 years and I'd say at a fairly decent level. And I'm also very interested in the tactical aspects of football, reading blogs and listening to analysts. More or less all of them agree on the importance of team shape and cohesiveness. That includes maintaining the shape even in possession and keeping the distances to opponents close so that every player is in the ideal position to counter press after turnovers and keep recovery times low. And when both teams bring that to the pitch, midfielders who can constantly escape the opponent's pressing in tight spaces make the difference.

Of course that doesn't mean goals aren't important. But it is not important who scores the goals and a player who tries to maximize his goal output will sometimes make decisions that jeopardize the overarching success. If Mbappe commited to the press and defensive work and stopped undermining the team shape by vacating his position all the time, his goal return would most likely go down because he'd be getting into less situations and be less fresh on the occasions he does but his team would likely perform better, especially so against top opponents.

By the way, I'm not saying that he is a bad player, not at all. I'm just saying he's overrated and not the best in the world.





I won't argue against the importance of ball progression, breaking lines and dribbling but IMO you underestimate how important that pressing work by Dembele was. It's a big contributing factor to pinning opponents into their own half or even third. You won't find any possession oriented coach that doesn't emphasize the importance of counter pressing.

Saying 'he's not a bad player' is still ridiculous.

You are just complicating something that is not that complicated. He has 400 career goals at age 26. If he avoids serious injury and plays another decade (a pretty conservative estimate), he'll be on 800 or 900 goals at least.

In the last 50 years, you're talking about a tiny handful of players with those kinds of numbers. And all those players are legends. He's trending towards being an all time great, and any other opinion is simply illogical.

But anyway, back to Wirtz and 'the most talented French footballer of all time.'

 

[Zehner]

Moved this post into the Mbappe thread

 

[Maluco]

That's a fantastic number and I'm sure many people will consider him an all time great by the end of his career, especially if he'll surpass the 1000 goals landmark but I still don't care. See, I'm working with data every day in my profession and one of the key aspects when you try to derive conclusions from statistics is whether or not two or more sample sizes are comparable. And the numbers you quote simply aren't comparable (not to mention that the metric is flawed to begin with). I mean, Romario claims to have scored >1.000 career goals as well and at least >700 of them are confirmed. Do you consider him an all time great? Probably not because he has scored a lot of those goals against semi professionals, and if you do, then not because of his goal records for Fort Lauderdale and co. Now, where do we draw the line? When Cristiano Ronaldo's numbers are quoted, should we exclude his goals for Al Nassr? Or his goals against San Marino and Faröer? What about Mbappe's goals in the Ligue 1 - should we count it when PSG ripped teams to pieces that had 1/20th of its market value? And isn't that unfair on players from previous eras who didn't get to statpad to the same extent because money wasn't distributed as inequally as today and national teams played far less matches against semi-professional teams? It's only logical to dismiss these kind of statistics since they have next to no meaningfulness, not the other way round.

You keep saying football is simple and I overcomplicate it but it's not, it is actually an incredibly complex game because it is as free flowing as very few other sports and as such incredibly difficult to quantify. There have been many attempts but so far, I haven't seen one metric that is great at identifying the play that actually contributed most to a goal or a big chance.

If your argument rests on Romario not being an all time great, you know you have taken a wrong turn. Sorry mate.

 

[BalanceUnAutreJoint]

Well I clearly know a bit more than you, because I don't worship a player who is decent at best, with some eye-catching skills.

Yes Kwabs knows better than all of the French football legends who've said their word on the topic, as well as the scouts and the trainers of one of the best academy in the world.

Btw second season in a row that Cherki's creative numbers are obliterating Yamal's

 

[MassVolto]

Completely different team, and manager, and Neuer was the best player on the pitch in that final. Mbappé scores his chance instead of hitting it right at Neuer, it's a whole different match. Di Maria scores, different match. Chupo Moting scores, etc. PSG ultimately created more than Bayern

And of course the biggest break of all: Mbappé's (lack of) fitness and Verratti not even being fit enough to start the match

Mbappe should have also been given a penalty for the tackle he got from behind by Kimmich

 

[Pintu]

Cherki has 6 assists in the league on 2.5 xA while Wirtz has 0 assists with providing around 1.7 xA. Cherki of course has played a lot less than Wirtz but Wirtz has been unlucky to not get a single assist yet while Cherki's partners have been scoring great goals off his passes.

Not that Wirtz has created any outstanding chances as well though, lots of them have been half chances but still atleast one should go in.

Adding up xA is a flawed metric.. that’s only the addition of many low quality chances that he created and players took the shot after his pass.

The real statistic is “big chances created “ and he has only created 1… Gakpo and Salah are the ones being let down by teammates finishing (each other. ?) they have each created 6/7 big chances.

https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/47/stats/season/27110/players/big_chance_created

If you click on Attacking Midfielder you get Bruno top of that table while Wirtz is way down alongside Mount.

 

[adexkola]

Yes Kwabs knows better than all

New tagline that

 

[Kwabs]

Yes Kwabs knows better than all of the French football legends who've said their word on the topic, as well as the scouts and the trainers of one of the best academy in the world.

Btw second season in a row that Cherki's creative numbers are obliterating Yamal's

Not sure what Yamal has to do with this, but he's light years ahead of fat boy Cherki. Maybe wait until your guy actually achieves something before putting him in a sentence with people that have eclipsed his entire 200+ game career before turning 17.

 

[BalanceUnAutreJoint]

Not sure what Yamal has to do with this, but he's light years ahead of fat boy Cherki. Maybe wait until your guy actually achieves something before putting him in a sentence with people that have eclipsed his entire 200+ game career before turning 17.

Tell Yamal to not get mogged in the head to head performance and to get better /90 output or creative stats then.

 

[padr81]

Not sure what Yamal has to do with this, but he's light years ahead of fat boy Cherki. Maybe wait until your guy actually achieves something before putting him in a sentence with people that have eclipsed his entire 200+ game career before turning 17.

Guarantee he's in better shape than you. You're better than stupid comments like that.
He's playing under a manager who basically ended Kalvin Phillips career for being 1 kg over optimal.

 

[Kwabs]

Tell Yamal to not get mogged in the head to head performance and to get better /90 output or creative stats then.

Yes, because that's what matters in football. No wonder you think he's the most talented player of all time or whatever.

 

[Kwabs]

Guarantee he's in better shape than you. You're better than stupid comments like that.
He's playing under a manager who basically ended Kalvin Phillips career for being 1 kg over optimal.

He's a professional athlete. I'm sure I know more than him about the works of Shakespeare, but then that's not his area. The point is that compared to others in his profession, he's a bit hefty. That's why Pep got on him.

 

[padr81]

He's a professional athlete. I'm sure I know more than him about the works of Shakespeare, but then that's not his area. The point is that compared to others in his profession, he's a bit hefty. That's why Pep got on him.

Thats not the same as being fat though. I just find comments like that strange, especially from someone whose usually quite logical in discussions. Seemed a bit petty.

 

[Posh Red]

Thats not the same as being fat though. I just find comments like that strange, especially from someone whose usually quite logical in discussions. Seemed a bit petty.

It is weird to call a pro athlete ‘fat boy’ in this context, agreed.

 

[Kwabs]

Thats not the same as being fat though. I just find comments like that strange, especially from someone whose usually quite logical in discussions. Seemed a bit petty.

You know what, maybe it was a bit too 'Twitterish'. I apologise.

 

[B20]

Aye. Chubby would have sufficed here. Rotund even.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Portly! The Portly Cherki!

 

[giorno]

You know what they say, a man without a belly is a sky without stars

 

[FriedClams]

Aye. Chubby would have sufficed here. Rotund even.

What about fatty fatty toad boy?

 

[BalanceUnAutreJoint]

Yes, because that's what matters in football. No wonder you think he's the most talented player of all time or whatever.

Most talented player to come out of France ever yes.
Something actual French scouts attest to and they're way more credible than you are I fear.

 

[padr81]

Most talented player to come out of France ever yes.
Something actual French scouts attest to and they're way more credible than you are I fear.

I like Cherki but you talking about a country that produced Zidane, Henry, Mbappe, Platini etc... People hype up players all the time. Pep called Foden the most talented player he ever worked with at one stage and we know that's not true.

 

[Kwabs]

Most talented player to come out of France ever yes.
Something actual French scouts attest to and they're way more credible than you are I fear.

You've shared these links before. You still don't get it, do you? What people say when someone is a virtual child at virtual child levels is meaningless. The talent has to be manifested. From what I've seen, at actual proper levels in dctual proper games, Cherki is not more talented than Platini and he's not more talented than Zinedine Zidane, for starters. Not even close. Do you think that he is? If so, it's pointless to continue this exchange.

I'm sure there was someone somewhere saying that Morrison was the most talented kid to come out of England. We know for a fact that he was called the most talented kid ever seen at Man United. Who gives a crap? That talent has to be shown at a high level on a consistent basis, against the best opponents. Or else it is not really talent, but potential.

 

[JPRouve]

You've shared these links before. You still don't get it, do you? What people say when someone is a virtual child at virtual child levels is meaningless. The talent has to be manifested. From what I've seen, at actual proper levels in dctual proper games, Cherki is not more talented than Platini and he's not more talented than Zinedine Zidane, for starters. Not even close. Do you think that he is? If so, it's pointless to continue this exchange.

I'm sure there was someone somewhere saying that Morrison was the most talented kid to come out of England. We know for a fact that he was called the most talented kid ever seen at Man United. Who gives a crap? That talent has to be shown at a high level on a consistent basis, against the best opponents. Or else it is not really talent, but potential.

It's pointless, while Cherki is very talented and deserve a lot of respect because he was a wonderkid but he somehow developed at a normal pace in his late teens, people were harsh on him but in my opinion he managed it well and just kept developing quietly. But he isn't the most talented player that Ligue 1 has seen in the last 20 years, let alone all time, he hasn't been the better or most talented teenager in Ligue 1 either the likes of Hazard, Mbappé, Dembélé were all better during their teenage and the formers were better in their early 20s.

If everything goes well he will be one of the best performer on the planet for years to come but he isn't in the conversation with all time greats unless he improves drastically.

 

[Zehner]

You've shared these links before. You still don't get it, do you? What people say when someone is a virtual child at virtual child levels is meaningless. The talent has to be manifested. From what I've seen, at actual proper levels in dctual proper games, Cherki is not more talented than Platini and he's not more talented than Zinedine Zidane, for starters. Not even close. Do you think that he is? If so, it's pointless to continue this exchange.

I'm sure there was someone somewhere saying that Morrison was the most talented kid to come out of England. We know for a fact that he was called the most talented kid ever seen at Man United. Who gives a crap? That talent has to be shown at a high level on a consistent basis, against the best opponents. Or else it is not really talent, but potential.

Talent is innate ability and obviously, that is your potential as a player. Your definition makes no sense because if talent only exists if it is fulfilled, the term "talent" is made redundant. If talent is shown at a high level consistently, it is realized potential. And funnily enough, Zidane was a very similar player to Cherki at 22 - clearly supremely talented technically as well as two-footed but yet to realize his full potential. At the same point in time, Zidane had just made his debut for France and he left Bordeaux for Juve when he was already 24 years old, so his career trajectory was actually even slower than Cherki's. You'd probably have ridiculed everybody claiming he was the most talented footballer France/Ligue 1 has produced back then as well.

But I admire the confidence with which you argue these kind of opinions. No hesitation, not even the hint of a self doubt or second thoughts when you read opinions from people who worked as professional scouts and as such are clearly much more knowledgeable to you. By the way, I am not saying Cherki is actually the most talented French or Ligue 1 player ever. But the guy clearly possesses outstanding technical qualities.

 

[Pickle85]

Talent is innate ability and obviously, that is your potential as a player. Your definition makes no sense because if talent only exists if it is fulfilled, the term "talent" is made redundant. If talent is shown at a high level consistently, it is realized potential. And funnily enough, Zidane was a very similar player to Cherki at 22 - clearly supremely talented technically as well as two-footed but yet to realize his full potential. At the same point in time, Zidane had just made his debut for France and he left Bordeaux for Juve when he was already 24 years old, so his career trajectory was actually even slower than Cherki's. You'd probably have ridiculed everybody claiming he was the most talented footballer France/Ligue 1 has produced back then as well.

But I admire the confidence with which you argue these kind of opinions. No hesitation, not even the hint of a self doubt or second thoughts when you read opinions from people who worked as professional scouts and as such are clearly much more knowledgeable to you. By the way, I am not saying Cherki is actually the most talented French or Ligue 1 player ever. But the guy clearly possesses outstanding technical qualities.

I think you're confusing talent with potential.

 

[Kwabs]

Talent is innate ability and obviously, that is your potential as a player. Your definition makes no sense because if talent only exists if it is fulfilled, the term "talent" is made redundant. If talent is shown at a high level consistently, it is realized potential. And funnily enough, Zidane was a very similar player to Cherki at 22 - clearly supremely talented technically as well as two-footed but yet to realize his full potential. At the same point in time, Zidane had just made his debut for France and he left Bordeaux for Juve when he was already 24 years old, so his career trajectory was actually even slower than Cherki's. You'd probably have ridiculed everybody claiming he was the most talented footballer France/Ligue 1 has produced back then as well.

But I admire the confidence with which you argue these kind of opinions. No hesitation, not even the hint of a self doubt or second thoughts when you read opinions from people who worked as professional scouts and as such are clearly much more knowledgeable to you. By the way, I am not saying Cherki is actually the most talented French or Ligue 1 player ever. But the guy clearly possesses outstanding technical qualities.

Then it is pointless for you to have even interjected.

 

[TsuWave]

It’s not even close

At this point I can’t even say for certain that Wirtz is/will turn out better than Van de Beek

 

[Zehner]

Then it is pointless for you to have even interjected.

No it is not pointless. I don't have to agree with the poster to be annoyed by your way of posting.

I think you're confusing talent with potential.

Talent is innate ability and that is obviously an enormous contributing factor for potential.You could even go as far as saying that there can't be potential without talent. And Cherki obviously possesses talent in abundance when you see his technique. You have to be born with a great predisposition for learning complex motoric movements to develop this mastery at manipulating a football.

 

[Kwabs]

No it is not pointless. I don't have to agree with the poster to be annoyed by your way of posting.




Talent is innate ability and that is obviously an enormous contributing factor for potential.You could even go as far as saying that there can't be potential without talent. And Cherki obviously possesses talent in abundance when you see his technique. You have to be born with a great predisposition for learning complex motoric movements to develop this mastery at manipulating a football.

You struggle when debating me, because you realise that just throwing out stats and jargon doesn't work. But that doesn't mean you have to follow me around the various threads.

 

[BalanceUnAutreJoint]

I like Cherki but you talking about a country that produced Zidane, Henry, Mbappe, Platini etc... People hype up players all the time. Pep called Foden the most talented player he ever worked with at one stage and we know that's not true.

You're just using an argument of authority because those are famous names with accomplished careers.
Not a single one of them is more naturally gifted than Cherki at football though which is what scouting is about in the end. Not how someone's career develops and what he accomplishes.

Pep is Foden's manager. Here we're talking about professional scouts observing players
irregardless of their club and coming to the general consensus that Cherki is the most talented they've seen.

You've shared these links before. You still don't get it, do you? What people say when someone is a virtual child at virtual child levels is meaningless. The talent has to be manifested. From what I've seen, at actual proper levels in dctual proper games, Cherki is not more talented than Platini and he's not more talented than Zinedine Zidane, for starters. Not even close. Do you think that he is? If so, it's pointless to continue this exchange.

I'm sure there was someone somewhere saying that Morrison was the most talented kid to come out of England. We know for a fact that he was called the most talented kid ever seen at Man United. Who gives a crap? That talent has to be shown at a high level on a consistent basis, against the best opponents. Or else it is not really talent, but potential.

And I insist again that you do not have any clue about anything regarding French football and you keep showcasing it by bringing up absolutely terrible examples.

Zidane was never a prodigy in his teenage years. He wasn't some super obvious genius talent. He was scouted late, it's not well known story that Dugarry was perceived as just as technically gifted as him when they first met in youth football.

Cherki was scoring and assisting goals professionally at 16 and was being talked about as a phenomenon years prior to that even happening by those who followed youth football.

It's pointless, while Cherki is very talented and deserve a lot of respect because he was a wonderkid but he somehow developed at a normal pace in his late teens, people were harsh on him but in my opinion he managed it well and just kept developing quietly. But he isn't the most talented player that Ligue 1 has seen in the last 20 years, let alone all time, he hasn't been the better or most talented teenager in Ligue 1 either the likes of Hazard, Mbappé, Dembélé were all better during their teenage and the formers were better in their early 20s.

If everything goes well he will be one of the best performer on the planet for years to come but he isn't in the conversation with all time greats unless he improves drastically.

Good thing that almost nobody in France thinks Mbappe or Dembele are more talented than Cherki and that these aren't even close to the two names you'd hear the most often about when talent discussion come up (especially Mbappe who's consistently ridiculed for being insecure about his technique and was mocked for trying to copy Neymar for years)

 

[JPRouve]

You're just using an argument of authority because those are famous names with accomplished careers.
Not a single one of them is more naturally gifted than Cherki at football though which is what scouting is about in the end. Not how someone's career develops and what he accomplishes.

Pep is Foden's manager. Here we're talking about professional scouts observing players
irregardless of their club and coming to the general consensus that Cherki is the most talented they've seen.


And I insist again that you do not have any clue about anything regarding French football and you keep showcasing it by bringing up absolutely terrible examples.

Zidane was never a prodigy in his teenage years. He wasn't some super obvious genius talent. He was scouted late, it's not well known story that Dugarry was perceived as just as technically gifted as him when they first met in youth football.

Cherki was scoring and assisting goals professionally at 16 and was being talked about as a phenomenon years prior to that even happening by those who followed youth football.


Good thing that almost nobody in France thinks Mbappe or Dembele are more talented than Cherki and that these aren't even close to the two names you'd hear the most often about when talent discussion come up (especially Mbappe who's consistently ridiculed for being insecure about his technique and was mocked for trying to copy Neymar for years)

Sure nobody in France think that.

 

[FriedClams]

“almost nobody in France thinks that Mbappe or dembele are more talented than cherki”

@BalanceUnAutreJoint can you back that claim up because it looks ridiculous. Almost nobody = less than 5% of the French football loving population believe Mbappe/dembele are more talented than cherki?

 

[BalanceUnAutreJoint]

“almost nobody in France thinks that Mbappe or dembele are more talented than cherki”

@BalanceUnAutreJoint can you back that claim up because it looks ridiculous. Almost nobody = less than 5% of the French football loving population believe Mbappe/dembele are more talented than cherki?

Just go check out the French side of big social media and you'll see for yourself

There was a video of Cherki and Mbappe in training last int break and people were making viral tweets about how Mbappe stole the ball away cause he was about to get embarrassed



Mbappe has been mocked for failing dribbles and touches and trying to imitate Neymar for years. There's countless videos of him angered PSG fans telling him to "JUST RUN!!" because they were tired of him trying to playmake.

Even Barcola was getting more talented than Mbappe shouts (which I disagree with) around the end of the 23/24 season and especially Euro 2024