Laporte has proven it? Sure you probably watched a shitload of Athletic games last year. Maguire? Wasn’t even in the discussion last season before he had a decent WC in which he lost 3 of the 7 matches they played, actually lost against any decent team they played. Otamendi
He is dogshit, and Kompany hasn’t been on his top level in the last three years. Our defence prior to Van Dijk’s arrival was awful, our defence after his arrival was dramatically better.
Laporte has proven it? Sure you probably watched a shitload of Athletic games last year. Maguire? Wasn’t even in the discussion last season before he had a decent WC in which he lost 3 of the 7 matches they played, actually lost against any decent team they played. Otamendi
Lmao what a trainwreck of a post.
Because people are easily swayed by media hype and pundit hype when half of the pundits are ex Liverpool players and the other half are failed managers. That along with his high price tag and Fifa/FM rating and the average fan such as on here will have you believe he is a great CB. He is bang average.
Since he joined Liverpool, no one conceded less than them. That was next to fecking Lovren. He was brilliant at Southampton. It's really not media hype (which sometimes can play a part), he's just very good. Your bias against Liverpool is showing, saying Lindelof, Bailly and Smalling are his equal (at this moment in time) is embarrassing, anyone who has watched enough of those 3 and VVD will know who the better CB is. I imagine 99% of United fans would agree (plenty would argue that Bailly could potentially be better and that's understandable).
Not true, anyone who had watched enough of him at Hull and Leicester knew that he was a contender for being in a top 5 PL CB list. There's a narrative that people only rate him due to his WC performances, it's not true. This is what I said about him back in february (to egotistically quote myself)Laporte has proven it? Sure you probably watched a shitload of Athletic games last year. Maguire? Wasn’t even in the discussion last season before he had a decent WC in which he lost 3 of the 7 matches they played, actually lost against any decent team they played. Otamendi
Lmao what a trainwreck of a post.
Don’t think Bailly is up there at all. Hasn’t even had a proper run of games for us yet.
Did you get bored of the first names half way through?
I take it you didn't watch the same City side 2 seasons ago, when, with the same system, they conceded a good amount of goals.
But how much possession do they give up to the opposition compared to other sides? I’m pretty sure they have more of the ball than most sides do. They also try and win the ball back higher up the pitch and commit tactical fouls which reduces the vulnerability of their defenders in open play you would think?
That is not a fair comparison. Those CB were facing very different challenges to the ones today. 10 years ago nobody had the attacking power of City or even Liverpool or Spurs nowadays. I am not saying those teams were weaker overall but attacking wise, they indeed were. 10 years ago almost everybody played a more patient game where the big encounters were boxing matches with two teams sitting off each other and waiting to capitalize on mistakes. The best teams in us and Chelsea and briefly Liverpool relied more on the individual brilliance of Ronaldo, Torres and Drogba to unlock those big games. It is a totally different ballgame now with many teams pressing high and committing more men forward. It makes them concede more goals but it also means the CBs deal with a different challenge. That's not of course to say the defenders on your list were not world class because they did what was needed in their specific environment but I am not sure they would fare the same way in today's PL as John Terry himself admitted when talking about the current City team.
United fans saying Smalling is one of the top 5 centre backs in the league is what gives us a bad name.
And Terry, Vidic and Carragher lacked quickness. And Carragher was not great on the ball. Who knows how the guys he listed would look in an era where almost every top side plays with a high line and CBs are expected to break the lines with their passing. Look at City's goals in the community shield the build up for their first goal started with Laporte and their second goal started with Stones winning the ball and playing it forward.
Exactly. Even if one holds the view that defenders should be able to defend first and foremost before any ball playing abilities, the fact is the defending those players had to do was simply very different to defenders in the current climate. When AVB tried to play a high line, we all saw what happened to Terry. I love Vidic and think he is one of the best defenders in the PL era but we all saw how fragile he looked when faced with the interchanges and fluidity of that Barcelona team. Even the great man himself Sir Alex pointed to how his plans to counter Barcelona's dominance was to have quicker defenders who can play 40 yards from goal. His judgment that Jones was the man to do that is maybe questionable but the principle was solid. Vidic and Terry would find it very difficult against the forwards lines of today. Add to that how the role of full backs changed with that Chelsea backline consisting of fullbacks of the ilk of Ivanovic, Azpilicueta, Fereira and Ashley Cole or ours having converted defenders like Brown or O'Shea and again you cannot ignore that level of protection when evaluating the defensive abilities of CBs 10 years ago.
Exactly. Even if one holds the view that defenders should be able to defend first and foremost before any ball playing abilities, the fact is the defending those players had to do was simply very different to defenders in the current climate. When AVB tried to play a high line, we all saw what happened to Terry. I love Vidic and think he is one of the best defenders in the PL era but we all saw how fragile he looked when faced with the interchanges and fluidity of that Barcelona team. Even the great man himself Sir Alex pointed to how his plans to counter Barcelona's dominance was to have quicker defenders who can play 40 yards from goal. His judgment that Jones was the man to do that is maybe questionable but the principle was solid. Vidic and Terry would find the challenges significantly more difficult against the forwards lines of today. Add to that how the role of full backs changed with that Chelsea backline consisting of fullbacks of the ilk of Ivanovic, Azpilicueta, Fereira and Ashley Cole or ours having converted defenders like Brown or O'Shea and again you cannot ignore that level of protection when evaluating the defensive abilities of CBs 10 years ago.
Yeah, me having Smalling as one of the top defenders in the league really gives "United fans" a bad name. Come on now. This hyperbole doesn't really make any sense.
I think people dont rate them as highly because City dominate games so much, last season they averaged 66.4% possession, the next closest was a distant 58.8% from Spurs, followed by 58.4% Arsenal and 58% Liverpool, given that against top 6 sides you are probably looking closer to 50/50 it means they are averaging probably around 70% possession vs the rest of the league.
One of the reasons they dominate to such extent is having good defenders. You can defend by making clearances and tackles but you can also defend by pushing higher up and helping your team keep the ball. Both are difficult skills to pull off and help equally at the ultimate goal; not allowing chances against your team. Neither are anymore or less "pure defending" unless one also thinks that wingers are not real wingers until they hug the touchline and cross. If anything the modern type of defenders is more effective considering the success of the likes of Barcelona or the record breaking season City had last year.
Chris Smalling couldn't even get into the England squad, and after about 7-8 years at United, still hasn't established himself as a top class defender and guaranteed starter.
Agree with this.
He definitely is a guaranteed starter when fit. Started all four of our cup finals under Van Gaal and Jose. Made 55 appearances in LVG's last season and had 46 last season. Even in an injury plagued season, Jose's first, he made 36 total appearances.Chris Smalling couldn't even get into the England squad, and after about 7-8 years at United, still hasn't established himself as a top class defender and guaranteed starter.
Because of his lack of quality, we've been on the look out for better players. He may be more reliable the Jones and Rojo, but he's a decent squad at best, and nowhere near the best 5 centre backs in the Premier League.
We're all entitled to our opinions, and it just so happens we completely disagree with each other
Whilst that post was a bit of a joke, I actually don't agree on VVD necessarily massively improving your defense. I think he's been good but nowhere near the levels some people seem to think - I have made the point before that your issue is Klopp's tactics not with which CBs you sign.
Bailly is not a Mourinho type player?
I think it was always the plan for them to eventually be the first choice pair. That is why City paid so much for them. They are the type of ball playing defenders Pep wanted for his system. They are CBs with the ability to break the lines.
The ways I said in my post. Just because a manager buys a player doesn't mean that player always works out to be well suited to the manager. Fortunately I think Bailly is so good that Mourinho will keep him as first choice regardless, but it explains why he has been too willing to drop him a couple of times with very little reason to do so. And for more than just a 'brief spell' - it was basically most of the second half of last season, to my recollection.
City plays it out from the back every time (unless Ederson can kick it into open space to counter attack). If they tried to do that with Smalling, they would concede a lot more, through his errors in the build up. If they kicked it long from every goal kick, they would lose the ball more often, which also means they would concede more.
