Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?

RedRonaldo

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Which tournament was better than Messi's Copa?

Ronaldo's never been named the player of the tournament for any international tournament. Not even once. Messi has gotten it 3 times. Twice in the Copa and once in the World Cup.

I don't get how some people think he's clearly had the better international career.
Perhaps because tournament MVP isn’t the only metric to measure who has better international career?

For example, Xavi and Iniesta had never won any tournament MVP, yet no one would consider Modric, who has won WC MVP, having better international career than Xavi/Iniesta.
 

siw2007

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Though I think Messi is just about the better player between the two over the course of their careers, Ronaldo has had the better career at international level.

Portugal do have a record of some amazing players in their history ranging from Eusebio through Figo and can definitely be considered one of the better sides in Europe, however they could not be considered one of the biggest nations in Europe like Germany, Italy or France. Ronaldo has inspired Portugal to compete beyond their level, all while becoming the all time record goalscorer at international level and probably playing a massive part in helping the team win the Euros and Nations League, which could be their only trophies for generations.

Messi has done alright for Argentina, winning the Copa America was a great achievement for him. He did okay in 2014 to get to the WC final, a very suspect best player award. But he hasn’t had the impact for Argentina as Ronaldo has for Portugal. Messi needs to win the WC for Argentina or overhaul Ronaldo’s goal record to be considered for having the better career.
 

Andrade

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Perhaps because tournament MVP isn’t the only metric to measure who has better international career?

For example, Xavi and Iniesta had never won any tournament MVP, yet no one would consider Modric, who has won WC MVP, having better international career than Xavi/Iniesta.
Actually incorrect, both Xavi and Iniesta have won tournament MVPs in their careers.
 

RedRonaldo

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Actually incorrect, both Xavi and Iniesta have won tournament MVPs in their careers.
Well I mean not the WC MVP. But you get the point, Beckenbauer never won tournaments MVP too (WC or Euro), sure no one would rate Cannavaro/Modric/Zagorakis/Forlan having better international career than Beckenbauer.
 

Gehrman

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By this logic, Ronaldo must have been truly awful in international tournaments to have never won an MVP because he's one of the biggest icons in the history of the sport. He didn't even get it when his nation won their first ever major trophy. I think this is a poor argument with all due respect. Messi got MVPs because he played well, not because his name is Messi.
Yeah I mean Ronaldo was tied with Messi with 5 Ballon Dors at one point but he never gets awards and stuff because his name isn't Messi.
 

Rojow

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I think that Ronaldo has elevated an ordinary Portugal side while Messi has underperformed in an (often) talented Argentinian side. I know that people will wade in with 'player of the tournament' this and that but imo Messi wins very few MVP awards in international tournaments with the performances he's given if his name isn't Messi.
By that logic, Ronaldo should've won at least one or two MvP awards on international tournaments. He has whole PR and marketing machine behind him. FFS, Mendes it's his agent.
 

Andrade

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Well I mean not the WC MVP. But you get the point, Beckenbauer never won tournaments MVP too (WC or Euro), sure no one would rate Cannavaro/Modric/Zagorakis/Forlan having better international career than Beckenbauer.
There was no Euros best player award in 1972 (in fact there were only 4 teams), but unfortunately this doesn't negate the general point. If player X has one MVP award and player Y has 0, you can argue context (or that awards were wrongly given etc.) If player X has 3 MVP awards and player Y has 0, there's no argument. Player X has been been better individually in tournaments and has therefore had a better international career because tournament performance is what matters at that level.
 

Joel Miller

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Italy didn’t qualify for the World Cup failing to beat Macedonia. Stop the bullshit. The answer to this is clear.
Doesn’t that say a lot more about the standard of the Euros than anything? You know, that maybe it isn’t the high level people think it is that the final was played out between Italy and England, one of whom hasn’t even qualified for the WC.

I’ve seen Greece win the Euros, I’ve never seen a side that crap win the Copa America. But for me the biggest flaw with using the Euros as a one up for Ronaldo is that he didn’t actually play well at the Euros, and Portugal as a time I think only won one game in 90 minutes. The first real strong side the faced was in the final, where Ronaldo played little part.
 

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Doesn’t that say a lot more about the standard of the Euros than anything? You know, that maybe it isn’t the high level people think it is that the final was played out between Italy and England, one of whom hasn’t even qualified for the WC.

I’ve seen Greece win the Euros, I’ve never seen a side that crap win the Copa America. But for me the biggest flaw with using the Euros as a one up for Ronaldo is that he didn’t actually play well at the Euros, and Portugal as a time I think only won one game in 90 minutes. The first real strong side the faced was in the final, where Ronaldo played little part.
You could argue instead that Europe is more competitive and that's why a team can win the Euro and miss the WC, I'm not saying it's true, just that it can be argued that way.
Ronaldo was silver boot of Euro 2016, with 3 goals and 3 assists, and contributed to more than half of Portugal's goals, is this not playing well?
The first real strong side Portugal faced in Euro 2016 might have been Iceland, which Argentina in the WC 2018 was unable to beat, or Croatia, that in the same WC smashed Argentina 3-0 and reached the final?

Also let's not forget the 5th from South America was eliminated out of the WC by a worse-than-usual Australia team.
 

genardk

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No offense and you can only win the competition you're in but European Championship is more prestigious and harder to win than Copa America.
That's only if you had a "proper" Euro path (which is the case for the majority of winners other than Portugal).

Greece in 2004 had to eliminate Spain, France, Portugal twice (home team) and an amazing Czech team to win the title.
Denmark in 1992 , another surprise winner, had to play against France, England, Sweden (home team), Netherlands and Germany to win the title.

Portugal's win is the jammiest win ever with teams like Hungary, Austria, Poland, Iceland, Wales etc. not even a single major force other than France. That supposedly "weak without Ronaldo" Portugal team won it without him so that he could get all the credit..
 

genardk

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You could argue instead that Europe is more competitive and that's why a team can win the Euro and miss the WC, I'm not saying it's true, just that it can be argued that way.
Ronaldo was silver boot of Euro 2016, with 3 goals and 3 assists, and contributed to more than half of Portugal's goals, is this not playing well?
The first real strong side Portugal faced in Euro 2016 might have been Iceland, which Argentina in the WC 2018 was unable to beat, or Croatia, that in the same WC smashed Argentina 3-0 and reached the final?

Also let's not forget the 5th from South America was eliminated out of the WC by a worse-than-usual Australia team.
Chile destroyed Euro 2012 winners Spain in WC 2014, Spain could not even go beyond the group stage.
Uruguay beat Portugal in WC 2018 KO rounds.
Chile beat Portugal in 2017 Confederations Cup.
Portugal could not go beyond the group stage in WC 2014 being left behind the mighty USA.
Argentina just beat Italy, the last EC winner, 3-0..

You are underrating South American football too much..

Put Portugal in the South American Quals, half the time they won't even qualify for the WC.

Ronaldo's goal scoring record against Americans (USA, Canada, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Ecuador, Chile) is terrible, 2 goals in 11 games. His goal scoring record is meaningless as there are no Lithuania, Faroe, Armenia, Azerbaijan, San Marino, Gibraltar etc. equivalents in South America. Messi just broke his most goals in a single NT game for Argentina against Estonia showing how easy it is to score against European minnows, he would break records if he had the opportunity to play against 10s of European minnows at his prime..
 

RedRonaldo

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There was no Euros best player award in 1972 (in fact there were only 4 teams), but unfortunately this doesn't negate the general point. If player X has one MVP award and player Y has 0, you can argue context (or that awards were wrongly given etc.) If player X has 3 MVP awards and player Y has 0, there's no argument. Player X has been been better individually in tournaments and has therefore had a better international career because tournament performance is what matters at that level.
Yes but even so Beckenbauer didn’t win any retrospective best player award either given to previous WC player. Point is, tournament MVP awards usually doesn’t hold much significance for those all time greats. There are list of average players who had won it, and people don’t give a shite. Essentially it’s just like a player of month award decided by small panel of jury selected from tournament officials.
 

Camara

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Chile destroyed Euro 2012 winners Spain in WC 2014, Spain could not even go beyond the group stage.
Uruguay beat Portugal in WC 2018 KO rounds.
Chile beat Portugal in 2017 Confederations Cup.
Portugal could not go beyond the group stage in WC 2014 being left behind the mighty USA.
Argentina just beat Italy, the last EC winner, 3-0..

You are underrating South American football too much..

Put Portugal in the South American Quals, half the time they won't even qualify for the WC.

Ronaldo's goal scoring record against Americans (USA, Canada, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Ecuador, Chile) is terrible, 2 goals in 11 games. His goal scoring record is meaningless as there are no Lithuania, Faroe, Armenia, Azerbaijan, San Marino, Gibraltar etc. equivalents in South America. Messi just broke his most goals in a single NT game for Argentina against Estonia showing how easy it is to score against European minnows, he would break records if he had the opportunity to play against 10s of European minnows at his prime..
So the best south american teams can beat some of the best european teams? What a revelation.
It still doesn't help the argument as apparently bad european teams matched the best south american teams.
And you know what? This is irrelevant, anyone can beat anyone, that is my point.
Saying Europe is bad because the Euro winner failed to qualify for the WC makes no sense.
Like I said, does this mean South America is worse than Asia because Peru was beaten by a lackluster Australia?

South American football is good but you cannot compare it to Europe, South America has 2+1 top top teams and around 2 really good teams. Europe has double that at least. In South America if one of your rivals is in a bad generation your chance to win is increased a lot, in Europe you need more than that.

On Ronaldo vs minnows I've talked about it before, take the minnows out from him and everyone else and he is still top. Now remove the friendlies from Messi and where is he? You see the world through 2 hypothetical lens at the same time depending on what your tentative argument.
 

genardk

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Yes but even so Beckenbauer didn’t win any retrospective best player award either given to previous WC player. Point is, tournament MVP awards usually doesn’t hold much significance for those all time greats. There are list of average players who had won it, and people don’t give a shite. Essentially it’s just like a player of month award decided by small panel of jury selected from tournament officials.
Probably in your fantasy world, MVP awards especially in WC tournaments hold damn significance for any top player. You would be the first one screaming major achievement if Ronaldo had won one in Confederations Cup let alone WC or EC.

What does not hold much significance is Ronaldo's goal record broken by playing tons of games against 10s of minnows that did not exist prior to 1990s. Nobody cares about these inflated stats, Euro qualifications is a perfect environment for stat-padding. Maybe South Americans should unite with North & Central America and add nations like Dominica, St Lucia, Antigua & Barbuda, Martinique, Guadaloupe etc. so that they can enjoy playing against multiple minnows as well.

Also, who are those average players that won it? Schilacci, Forlan, Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo, Romario, Zidane, Rossi, Modric?? If you think some are average, then imagine how below average Ronaldo was not being able to win even a single MVP award vs Messi's 5 in U-20 WC, Olympics, Copas and WC, in every single tournament he featured in.
 

Andrade

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Yes but even so Beckenbauer didn’t win any retrospective best player award either given to previous WC player. Point is, tournament MVP awards usually doesn’t hold much significance for those all time greats. There are list of average players who had won it, and people don’t give a shite. Essentially it’s just like a player of month award decided by small panel of jury selected from tournament officials.
False. It matters. You're only saying this because Ronaldo doesn't have any. Every other GOAT candidate has at least one.
 

RedRonaldo

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Probably in your fantasy world, MVP awards especially in WC tournaments hold damn significance for any top player. You would be the first one screaming major achievement if Ronaldo had won one in Confederations Cup let alone WC or EC.

What does not hold much significance is Ronaldo's goal record broken by playing tons of games against 10s of minnows that did not exist prior to 1990s. Nobody cares about these inflated stats, Euro qualifications is a perfect environment for stat-padding. Maybe South Americans should unite with North & Central America and add nations like Dominica, St Lucia, Antigua & Barbuda, Martinique, Guadaloupe etc. so that they can enjoy playing against multiple minnows as well.

Also, who are those average players that won it? Schilacci, Forlan, Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo, Romario, Zidane, Rossi, Modric?? If you think some are average, then imagine how below average Ronaldo was not being able to win even a single MVP award vs Messi's 5 in U-20 WC, Olympics, Copas and WC, in every single tournament he featured in.
Again this statement is misleading. He didn’t win any MVP awards in 06 WC, 10 WC, 18 WC, nor did he win any MVP awards in 07 Copa, 11 Copa, 16 Copa, 19 Copa. Also counting u-20 and Olympic is really daft. Can you name any other past MVP winners in these competitions over the years right away without look hard from internet? I bet no one cares. His WC golden ball though is far more recognised than the other you’ve listed. Although it’s not really a memorable one for him, as he is basically golden ball winner with zero contributions throughout the knockout stage. Forlan one is far more memorable.

Bottom line is, the likes of Cannavro/Modric/Zagorakis/Forlan/Sanchez/Alves/Adriano/Guevara winning it doesn’t mean they are better than Beckenbauer at international football. It’s one metric you may use to assess players international career, but just one from many.
 

Gehrman

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Again this statement is misleading. He didn’t win any MVP awards in 06 WC, 10 WC, 18 WC, nor did he win any MVP awards in 07 Copa, 11 Copa, 16 Copa, 19 Copa. Also counting u-20 and Olympic is really daft. Can you name any other past MVP winners in these competitions over the years right away without look hard from internet? I bet no one cares. His WC golden ball though is far more recognised than the other you’ve listed. Although it’s not really a memorable one for him, as he is basically golden ball winner with zero contributions throughout the knockout stage. Forlan one is far more memorable.

Bottom line is, the likes of Cannavro/Modric/Zagorakis/Forlan/Sanchez/Alves/Adriano/Guevara winning it doesn’t mean they are better than Beckenbauer at international football. It’s one metric you may use to assess players international career, but just one from many.
Beckenbauer got nutmegged and put on his arsenal by Pelé. Totally overrated.
 

RedRonaldo

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False. It matters. You're only saying this because Ronaldo doesn't have any. Every other GOAT candidate has at least one.
Di Stefano, Beckenbauer were regarded as GOAT candidate during their time, they don't have one.
 

Andrade

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Again this statement is misleading. He didn’t win any MVP awards in 06 WC, 10 WC, 18 WC, nor did he win any MVP awards in 07 Copa, 11 Copa, 16 Copa, 19 Copa. Also counting u-20 and Olympic is really daft. Can you name any other past MVP winners in these competitions over the years right away without look hard from internet? I bet no one cares. His WC golden ball though is far more recognised than the other you’ve listed. Although it’s not really a memorable one for him, as he is basically golden ball winner with zero contributions throughout the knockout stage. Forlan one is far more memorable.

Bottom line is, the likes of Cannavro/Modric/Zagorakis/Forlan/Sanchez/Alves/Adriano/Guevara winning it doesn’t mean they are better than Beckenbauer at international football. It’s one metric you may use to assess players international career, but just one from many.
It's not misleading, Messi has an MVP in every type of tournament he has competed in. That's significant. It should be fairly obvious that he doesn't have an MVP in every single actual tournament he has played in, that would be ridiculous.

Also, you say that he had no contributions in the KO rounds in 2014. That's not true because he assisted a goal. Also worth pointing out that Argentina in that tournament managed a grand total of 8 goals (of which Messi scored half and assisted one), so they were not exactly a prolific attacking team.
 

Andrade

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Di Stefano, Beckenbauer were regarded as GOAT candidate during their time, they don't have one.
Beckenbauer has never ever been a GOAT candidate. DiStefano is, but he played for 3 different countries and only ever in one international tournament (which he helped his team to win and he may well have been the tournament MVP if they gave them out in 1947). But the main point is that he played in one tournament in his career, not 9 or 10 like Ronaldo.
 

RedRonaldo

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It's not misleading, Messi has an MVP in every type of tournament he has competed in. That's significant. It should be fairly obvious that he doesn't have an MVP in every single actual tournament he has played in, that would be ridiculous.

Also, you say that he had no contributions in the KO rounds in 2014. That's not true because he assisted a goal. Also worth pointing out that Argentina in that tournament managed a grand total of 8 goals (of which Messi scored half and assisted one), so they were not exactly a prolific attacking team.
Its not misleading when you re-word it this way, but its misleading when someone originally claimed Messi has won MVP in every single tournament he featured in.

Well, lets just say Argentina progressing into final mainly because of their fine defensive performance in knockout stage, which has nothing much to do with Messi. I am not saying he doesn't deserve winning it (lot of people think he doesn't deserve though), as ultimately, tournament MVP is just an opinion award decided by official panel consists of small number of officials over small number of games played. Truth is, Messi won it based on his outstanding form in the group stage against Bosnia, Iran and Nigeria, some of the worst opponents in the competition. Its nothing GOAT about this, really.
 

RedRonaldo

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Beckenbauer has never ever been a GOAT candidate. DiStefano is, but he played for 3 different countries and only ever in one international tournament (which he helped his team to win and he may well have been the tournament MVP if they gave them out in 1947). But the main point is that he played in one tournament in his career, not 9 or 10 like Ronaldo.
Beckbebauer is 2 of the best player in 70s (Cruyff and Beckenbauer is same tier). Di Stefano is best player in 50s, Pele is best in 60s, and of course Maradona the best in 80s. I think they are all GOAT candidates back in their time.

Anyway here's my GOAT ranking:
Top 4: Pele, Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo
Top 7: Di Stefano, Cruyff, Beckenbauer

They have all been considered GOAT candidate at their time.
 

Andrade

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Beckbebauer is 2 of the best player in 70s. Di Stefano is best player in 50s, Pele is best in 60s. I think they are all GOAT candidates back in their time.
I don't say that to denigrate Beckenbauer, he's a legend. It's just that no one would call him the greatest player of all time. Pele, Maradona, DiStefano, Cruyff, these are the main people that are described as such. In Beckenbauer's time, Cruyff was clearly the world's best player. His main rival at the time was George Best, but he lacked the platform to truly compete.
 

RedRonaldo

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I don't say that to denigrate Beckenbauer, he's a legend. It's just that no one would call him the greatest player of all time. Pele, Maradona, DiStefano, Cruyff, these are the main people that are described as such. In Beckenbauer's time, Cruyff was clearly the world's best player. His main rival at the time was George Best, but he lacked the platform to truly compete.
I beg to differ. I really honestly do think Beckenbauer is one of GOAT. I am shocked to find someone who doesn't see him as one.
 

Andrade

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I beg to differ. I really honestly do think Beckenbauer is one of GOAT. I am shocked to find someone who doesn't see him as one.
He's not. He's a defender. It's like saying Lev Yashin is the GOAT. Great player, but not a GOAT candidate. That's just the reality.
 

RedRonaldo

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He's not. He's a defender. It's like saying Lev Yashin is the GOAT. Great player, but not a GOAT candidate. That's just the reality.
He is not just a defender. He was known as Der Kaiser and invented the role "libero" in football. He revolutionalize football the way which has never been seen before, and equals to Cruyff revolutionary total footballer in every sense. He also won WC, Euro, CL and Ballon D'ors.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. When I was born, everyone know the 5 greatest player in the history of football are Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano, Cruyff and Beckenbauer. They are the 5 most recognisable GOAT when i first learn about football.
 

JPRouve

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Beckenbauer isn't one of the greatest player of all time because he was a defender? I heard everything, Beckenbauer was as good as Platini.
 

tomaldinho1

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False. It matters. You're only saying this because Ronaldo doesn't have any. Every other GOAT candidate has at least one.
This actually made me laugh out loud - the idea that player of the tournament means so much to some people. I'd bet even 99% of players, let alone posters, don't know that Forlan won the WC 2010 one. They might remember that Forlan won top scorer however because that is memorable.

I would say both Ronaldo and Messi have been a bit disappointing in their individual international careers given how good they are at club level. If I had to pick one I’d go with Ronaldo just because Portugal aren’t a favourite in the Euros whereas Argentina tend to be in the Copa and through the Copa happening more regularly than the Euros Messi has had more chances to win it as well. This is their last WC, Argentina are one of the favourites and Portugal aren't really expected to much outside of get out of their group, let's see if either can really own a tournament and go out with a bang.
 

Andrade

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He is not just a defender. He was known as Der Kaiser and invented the role "libero" in football. He revolutionalize football the way which has never been seen before, and equals to Cruyff revolutionary total footballer in every sense. He also won WC, Euro, CL and Ballon D'ors.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. When I was born, everyone know the 5 greatest player in the history of football are Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano, Cruyff and Beckenbauer. They are the 5 most recognisable GOAT when i first learn about football.
No one has ever called Beckenbauer the greatest player of all time. Try to understand the difference between 'GOAT candidate' and 'one of the greatest players of all time'. That would help. Bobby Moore is one of the greatest players of all time. He is not a GOAT candidate.
 

JPRouve

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Not actually what was said.
What was said? @RedRonaldo said that Beckenbauer was one of the GOATs. And you said that he wasn't one of the all time greats because he was a defender and even went a bit further and decided to add Yashin.
 

Andrade

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This actually made me laugh out loud - the idea that player of the tournament means so much to some people. I'd bet even 99% of players, let alone posters, don't know that Forlan won the WC 2010 one. They might remember that Forlan won top scorer however because that is memorable.

I would say both Ronaldo and Messi have been a bit disappointing in their individual international careers given how good they are at club level. If I had to pick one I’d go with Ronaldo just because Portugal aren’t a favourite in the Euros whereas Argentina tend to be in the Copa and through the Copa happening more regularly than the Euros Messi has had more chances to win it as well. This is their last WC, Argentina are one of the favourites and Portugal aren't really expected to much outside of get out of their group, let's see if either can really own a tournament and go out with a bang.
Everyone knows this.

Also, Messi has had exactly one more chance to win a continental tournament than Ronaldo.
 

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Since this is the Messi v Ronaldo thread...

Ronaldo>Messi
 

JPRouve

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Please read my recent response to Red to understand what I've been saying since the start of this interaction.
I did and it doesn't change a thing. You are arguing against the idea that Beckenbauer is an all time great which is baffling.
 

Andrade

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I did and it doesn't change a thing. You are arguing against the idea that Beckenbauer is an all time great which is baffling.
No I'm not. I'm arguing against the idea that he is one of the handful of people who can be considered to be the greatest player of all time. Which is what I said from the start, if you look at what I wrote. That is what 'GOAT candidate' means. I even listed the few players that it applies to.
 

JPRouve

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No I'm not. I'm arguing against the idea that he is one of the handful of people who can be considered to be the greatest player of all time. Which is what I said from the start, if you look at what I wrote. That is what 'GOAT candidate' means. I even listed the few players that it applies to.
Your list is yours, it's not factual. Beckenbauer has been considered one of the greatest player of all time and arguably the best European of his generation by a lot of people for a long time. It's largely accepted that Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Platini were in the same tier.
 
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