Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?

Zehner

Full Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
5,865
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
I don't think it is about defender vs. attacker. Creation is simply more difficult than destroying. The most gifted players usually tend to play in attacking roles. Somebody like Beckenbauer is an absolute exception, probably even one of a kind.
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
8,544
I don't think it is about defender vs. attacker. Creation is simply more difficult than destroying. The most gifted players usually tend to play in attacking roles. Somebody like Beckenbauer is an absolute exception, probably even one of a kind.
They had muller upfront to score the goals anyway.
 

Zehner

Full Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
5,865
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
They had muller upfront to score the goals anyway.
Which is really remarkable. Müller was an all time great goal scorer, yet I haven't encountered a single German who considers him greater than Beckenbauer - technically, a defender. To me this encapsulates that it isn't about who scores the most but who has the greatest positive impact for his team through whichever means :) Beckenbauer is considered the best German player of all time because everything flowed through him. He was technically the best and the outstanding playmaker of his teams. Which is essentially why I also believe that Messi has had a better career than Cristiano, for club and country. Messi's overall contribution is so much ahead of his rival that even when he scores less frequently (as he did for Argentina compared to Cristiano for Portugal), it more than makes up for it.

Not a dig at Ronaldo, it is just that I believe people underestimate how ridiculous it is that Messi maintains this kind of scoring record while also being such a great playmaker.
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
8,544
Which is really remarkable. Müller was an all time great goal scorer, yet I haven't encountered a single German who considers him greater than Beckenbauer - technically, a defender. To me this encapsulates that it isn't about who scores the most but who has the greatest positive impact for his team through whichever means :) Beckenbauer is considered the best German player of all time because everything flowed through him. He was technically the best and the outstanding playmaker of his teams. Which is essentially why I also believe that Messi has had a better career than Cristiano, for club and country. Messi's overall contribution is so much ahead of his rival that even when he scores less frequently (as he did for Argentina compared to Cristiano for Portugal), it more than makes up for it.

Not a dig at Ronaldo, it is just that I believe people underestimate how ridiculous it is that Messi maintains this kind of scoring record while also being such a great playmaker.
I wonder if in the current era of football one the absolute greatest goalscorers of all time could be overshadowed in the same team by a defender.
 

GinobiliTheGOAT

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 29, 2022
Messages
381
It's pretty even isn't it. They've both got a continental win, both scored and assisted ridiculous amounts.
But Pele has 3 world cups and shits on both of them.
Brazil were winning world cups when pele was on the bench (1962) and only had one goal the entire tourney. Those Brazil teams were stacked back then and the competition wasn’t nearly as good. Messi and Ronaldo would have won word cups back then too playing for Brazil.
 

tentan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
3,450
Brazil were winning world cups when pele was on the bench (1962) and only had one goal the entire tourney. Those Brazil teams were stacked back then and the competition wasn’t nearly as good. Messi and Ronaldo would have won word cups back then too playing for Brazil.
 

TheNewEra

Knows Kroos' mentality
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
6,428
It's not really a debate for me, Messi he's reached four major finals and they were a whisker away in all the finals. Including the WC.
 

ThierryFabregas

New Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2018
Messages
592
Supports
Arsenal
Which is really remarkable. Müller was an all time great goal scorer, yet I haven't encountered a single German who considers him greater than Beckenbauer - technically, a defender. To me this encapsulates that it isn't about who scores the most but who has the greatest positive impact for his team through whichever means :) Beckenbauer is considered the best German player of all time because everything flowed through him. He was technically the best and the outstanding playmaker of his teams. Which is essentially why I also believe that Messi has had a better career than Cristiano, for club and country. Messi's overall contribution is so much ahead of his rival that even when he scores less frequently (as he did for Argentina compared to Cristiano for Portugal), it more than makes up for it.

Not a dig at Ronaldo, it is just that I believe people underestimate how ridiculous it is that Messi maintains this kind of scoring record while also being such a great playmaker.
Was Beckenbauer an out and out defender though? Looking at videos it looks like he drifts deep into the opposition half in what looks like a box to box midfield role. Surely he was playing in a back 3 then and given creative licence to roam forward while being the heartbeat of the team. Well before my time so I can only speculate.

EDIT a quick google of the 1974 formation shows it was a flat back 4. But Vogts as right back would drop deep to cover for Beckenbauer's forward runs, playing as a make shift centre back.

I don't think Beckenbauer would be played as a centre back in this era. Managers would want him as the focal point. He potentially could of been more influential if he didn't have to drop so far back.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

I pity the poor fool who stinks like I do!
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
8,714
Location
Blitztown
It's not really a debate for me, Messi he's reached four major finals and they were a whisker away in all the finals. Including the WC.
The COPA is generally just a two horse race though, with the occasional additional team that has a golden generation.

I think there have only been a handful of finals not Involving one of them. Absolute cakewalk.
 

genardk

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 19, 2021
Messages
364
Supports
Juventus
The COPA is generally just a two horse race though, with the occasional additional team that has a golden generation.

I think there have only been a handful of finals not Involving one of them. Absolute cakewalk.
No, it's a one horse race with Brazil winning most tournaments. Argentina won only two between 1959-2021 (in 93 & 95).
 

GinobiliTheGOAT

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 29, 2022
Messages
381
The COPA is generally just a two horse race though, with the occasional additional team that has a golden generation.

I think there have only been a handful of finals not Involving one of them. Absolute cakewalk.
A 2 horse race get chile won 2 of the last 4
 

ExoduS

Full Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2006
Messages
1,898
Location
Serbia
Messi is better in every way than Ronaldo except as a pure striker. Messi is superior footballer to Ronaldo in every other category regardless of club or international career.
 

Andycoleno9

matchday malcontent
Joined
Mar 4, 2017
Messages
22,035
Location
Croatia
Ronaldo without question. Won 2 World cups and two Copa America.


There is only one Ronaldo
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

I pity the poor fool who stinks like I do!
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
8,714
Location
Blitztown
A 2 horse race get chile won 2 of the last 4
Yeah mate. That’s the Caveat I highlighted. They had one golden generation and played….. Argentina in both finals.

Only 5 finals haven’t had one of Argentina or Brazil in them. You’re denying observable reality to suggest it’s not a piece of piss for them both. Guaranteed semi-finals.

I think Messi is a better footballer than Ronaldo, but Ronaldo’s Euro exploits are rightfully valued higher than Messi’s COPA efforts. It’s not a slight. It’s just circumstance.

EDIT ::: I may have quoted a shitty stat. I used a Wiki table that another table disagrees with. Anywho, point-being, Argentina have easy routes to the semi final, always.
 

SportingCP96

Full Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2014
Messages
9,451
Supports
Sporting Clube de Portugal
It’s easily and and a no contest Ronaldo on this front.

Before Ronaldo Portugal had zero trophies and barely qualified for major tournaments.

With Ronaldo 3 final 2 won a WC semi final and multiple other Euro semi finals.

This all while playing for a majority of his career with a inferior national team. In WC 2014 for example the last time we played Ghana our lineup was

Beto Veloso Alves pepe João Pereira amorim William Moutinho Eder nani Ronaldo and on the bench Varela and Ricardo costa among other garbage.

The Euro win Alone is a bigger feat then anything messi has done with Argentina. If you remove bias the copa América is the South Americans version of the gold cup. Argentina or Brazil are in the final 9x out of 10. It’s a given….

Ronaldos international record is incredible with the players he had supporting him. Many times he has single handedly pulled Portugal out of the mud.

2-1 vs Netherlands, both games vs sweden, vs Spain, the list goes on and on.

If Ronaldo played for Argentina and those group of players I would imagine he would have 2 copa Américas and I would fancy him in a major final/moment over Anyone so maybe he is sitting pretty with a World Cup.

Argentina has won major trophies before Messi and they will win them after…that’s the difference between the two nations.

With Portugal they never won without him….they won TWO with him….and they is a Huge chance they don’t win anything after him. Our history and size of our country has dictated that.

So club level we can argue all day and night.

International level? Ronaldo every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Not even a debate really.
 

SportingCP96

Full Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2014
Messages
9,451
Supports
Sporting Clube de Portugal
Yeah mate. That’s the Caveat I highlighted. They had one golden generation and played….. Argentina in both finals.

Only 5 finals haven’t had one of Argentina or Brazil in them. You’re denying observable reality to suggest it’s not a piece of piss for them both. Guaranteed semi-finals.

I think Messi is a better footballer than Ronaldo, but Ronaldo’s Euro exploits are rightfully valued higher than Messi’s COPA efforts. It’s not a slight. It’s just circumstance.

EDIT ::: I may have quoted a shitty stat. I used a Wiki table that another table disagrees with. Anywho, point-being, Argentina have easy routes to the semi final, always.
100%

The copa America does not hold nearly as much weight. It’s a micky mouse cup for Brazil and Argentina. Those two are almost t always in the final, it’s a joke.
 

genardk

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 19, 2021
Messages
364
Supports
Juventus
Messi was chosen as the MVP of every single tournament he participated in, WC, Copa, Olympics, U-20 WC, while Ronaldo 0, not even close. He was not even the best player of Portugal in EC 2016, did not even play in the final more than 15 minutes..
 

genardk

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 19, 2021
Messages
364
Supports
Juventus
It’s easily and and a no contest Ronaldo on this front.

Before Ronaldo Portugal had zero trophies and barely qualified for major tournaments.

With Ronaldo 3 final 2 won a WC semi final and multiple other Euro semi finals.
Wrong, Before Ronaldo, Portugal played SF in 1966 WC and EC SF in 1984 & 2000. Figo and co were more influential in 2006 WC. The guy was not even chosen as a best player in a major tournament vs Messi with 5 including a WC.

This all while playing for a majority of his career with a inferior national team. In WC 2014 for example the last time we played Ghana our lineup was

Beto Veloso Alves pepe João Pereira amorim William Moutinho Eder nani Ronaldo and on the bench Varela and Ricardo costa among other garbage.
So inferior that the team won EC against France in Paris without him)) so that he can show off..

The Euro win Alone is a bigger feat then anything messi has done with Argentina. If you remove bias the copa América is the South Americans version of the gold cup. Argentina or Brazil are in the final 9x out of 10. It’s a given….
He was not even the best player of Portugal in that tournament, did not even play more than 15 minutes in the final, his performances were nothing special. Greece as a surprise winner like Portugal in 2004 had to eliminate Spain, France, Portugal twice (home team) and an amazing Czech team to win the title.
Denmark in 1992 , another surprise winner, had to play against France, England, Sweden (home team), Netherlands and Germany to win the title.

Portugal's win is the jammiest win ever with teams like Hungary, Austria, Poland, Iceland, Wales etc. not even a single major force other than France. That does not look like the usual path of a EC winner to anyone)). Also, that supposedly "weak without Ronaldo" Portugal team won it without him so that he could get all the credit))

Ronaldos international record is incredible with the players he had supporting him. Many times he has single handedly pulled Portugal out of the mud.
Just like the rest of the Portugal squad brought him EC without him, he should be grateful that rest of the squad did it so that he can get all the credit.. You seem to have zero respect for the rest of the team to elevate your countryman Ronaldo.

If Ronaldo played for Argentina and those group of players I would imagine he would have 2 copa Américas and I would fancy him in a major final/moment over Anyone so maybe he is sitting pretty with a World Cup.
Continue imagining Ronaldo as the playmaker + goalscorer for the NT) You are conflating team success with individual success fully ignoring the fact that Messi was chosen as the best player in every single tournament he played in including the WC, Ronaldo has "0" zero.

Argentina has won major trophies before Messi and they will win them after…that’s the difference between the two nations.
With Portugal they never won without him….they won TWO with him….and they is a Huge chance they don’t win anything after him. Our history and size of our country has dictated that.
Such a clever comparison, as if football is a 1-man sport.. As if Portugal did not win EC without him in the final, such an inferior squad)) If only Messi had a player like Eder instead of Higuain to help him. You can't even see that football is a team sport not singles tennis..

By the way, Ronaldo's goal scoring record against "weak" Americans (USA, Canada, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Ecuador, Chile) is terrible, 2 goals in 11 games..
 

Foxbatt

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,055
I think trophy wise Ronaldo is better because he won the EC. It's no slight on Messi that he has not won the WC. As a creater he did all he can. Just because the Argentina strikers were shite don't mean Messi was to blame.
Just like Ronaldo didn't do feck all in the final don't mean he has not won the EC.
 

Swoobs

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 2, 2019
Messages
469
Supports
Florentina
Wrong, Before Ronaldo, Portugal played SF in 1966 WC and EC SF in 1984 & 2000. Figo and co were more influential in 2006 WC. The guy was not even chosen as a best player in a major tournament vs Messi with 5 including a WC.



So inferior that the team won EC against France in Paris without him)) so that he can show off..



He was not even the best player of Portugal in that tournament, did not even play more than 15 minutes in the final, his performances were nothing special. Greece as a surprise winner like Portugal in 2004 had to eliminate Spain, France, Portugal twice (home team) and an amazing Czech team to win the title.
Denmark in 1992 , another surprise winner, had to play against France, England, Sweden (home team), Netherlands and Germany to win the title.

Portugal's win is the jammiest win ever with teams like Hungary, Austria, Poland, Iceland, Wales etc. not even a single major force other than France. That does not look like the usual path of a EC winner to anyone)). Also, that supposedly "weak without Ronaldo" Portugal team won it without him so that he could get all the credit))



Just like the rest of the Portugal squad brought him EC without him, he should be grateful that rest of the squad did it so that he can get all the credit.. You seem to have zero respect for the rest of the team to elevate your countryman Ronaldo.



Continue imagining Ronaldo as the playmaker + goalscorer for the NT) You are conflating team success with individual success fully ignoring the fact that Messi was chosen as the best player in every single tournament he played in including the WC, Ronaldo has "0" zero.



Such a clever comparison, as if football is a 1-man sport.. As if Portugal did not win EC without him in the final, such an inferior squad)) If only Messi had a player like Eder instead of Higuain to help him. You can't even see that football is a team sport not singles tennis..

By the way, Ronaldo's goal scoring record against "weak" Americans (USA, Canada, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Ecuador, Chile) is terrible, 2 goals in 11 games..
Don’t you know? A player appearing in a WC semis unquestionably had a better international career than one who was in the final of a WC and won the best player award. “Not really a contest really”, hear that, not even a debate alright :lol:
 

Iker Quesadillas

Full Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
1,820
Supports
Real Madrid
Messi winning the 2014 'best player of the WC' award was pretty controversial at the time. There were complaints about it even in Argentina.
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
8,544
Was Beckenbauer an out and out defender though? Looking at videos it looks like he drifts deep into the opposition half in what looks like a box to box midfield role. Surely he was playing in a back 3 then and given creative licence to roam forward while being the heartbeat of the team. Well before my time so I can only speculate.

EDIT a quick google of the 1974 formation shows it was a flat back 4. But Vogts as right back would drop deep to cover for Beckenbauer's forward runs, playing as a make shift centre back.

I don't think Beckenbauer would be played as a centre back in this era. Managers would want him as the focal point. He potentially could of been more influential if he didn't have to drop so far back.
He was a traditional sweeper. He would drive the ball up the pitch
 

cyberman

Full Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
29,721
Ronaldo. You don’t have to be the main man in a final win to have a great international career you weirdos.
 
X