The Jinky compilation got me thinking. Most quick dribbling and crossing style wingers tend to make quite a lot of poor decisions. @Šjor Bepo calls it winger brain. So who do we think married great winger ability with great decision making?
Who is the most intelligent winger of all-time?
- Thread starter Physiocrat
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
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Figo or Nedved probably.
Rashford
For all his off-the-field lack of intelligence, Giggsy certainly developped an excellent understanding of space and attacking situations, probably the best of our famous wingers. Don't really consider Becks a winger.
Nedved is a great shout. Obviously Messi. Robben when fit.
Nedved is a great shout. Obviously Messi. Robben when fit.
Steve Coppell.
Ronaldo or Messi(if he was ever really a winger in the classic sense anyway).
not a winger
Coppell.
not a striker either.
Does inside forward not count as winger these days? I’d say it does tbh.
It's Ronaldo who was a winger for many years. I've never seen anyone's game intelligence improve as much as him. He was so frustrating at the beginning, too many step-overs, too many long range strikes.
After the World Cup in 2006, he was more careful with the ball but changed the role of a winger, attacking more, picking up dangerous positions. There were less step-overs, more productivity. Keane says that Ronaldo is the most intelligent player he's ever seen.
Other aspects such as knowing when to time a run, when to begin a leap before a header. If you'll class him in the 2000s as a winger, it has to be him.
After the World Cup in 2006, he was more careful with the ball but changed the role of a winger, attacking more, picking up dangerous positions. There were less step-overs, more productivity. Keane says that Ronaldo is the most intelligent player he's ever seen.
Other aspects such as knowing when to time a run, when to begin a leap before a header. If you'll class him in the 2000s as a winger, it has to be him.
When I was drawing up a list I saw them as pairs. Two best attackers, Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. The best from the nineties and noughties, Luís Figo and Pavel Nedvěd. Bayern Munich pair Arjen Robben and Franck Ribéry. 4-4-2 dream wingers, Ryan Giggs and David Beckham. Complete footballers Rob Rensenbrink and Piet Keizer. Intelligent movement in Thomas Müller and Zbigniew Boniek. Playmakers who could play on the wing, David Silva and Thomas Häßler.
I think there is also an archaic tactical element at play for a lot of the 50s/60s and earlier wingers. They were operating under tactical briefs that heavily stressed high risk dribbling and beating your nearest man more than started to be the case from the total football influenced mid-70s and especially 80s on, as more universal playing styles and more defensively cautious tactics became increasingly common in a lot of countries. there was still plenty of that style left over afterward, but a lot of countries moved distinctly away from it, especially at the top end.
Coppell, Figo, Giggs. Barnes?
Figo would probably top my list. You need someone with outstanding technical arsenal, ideally a player who can operate on both wings as well as centrally, which gives them more options to choose from. Outstanding dribbling is a must as it gives them time to think about what they're doing next.
Out of the modern ones I'd say that Ribery & Hazard were great at this. Finney & Czibor also looked wonderfully creative even though we barely have any footage of them. Mid-to-late career Giggs would probably make the list (the earlier version was too reliant on his pace & dribbling). Beckham as well.
Out of the modern ones I'd say that Ribery & Hazard were great at this. Finney & Czibor also looked wonderfully creative even though we barely have any footage of them. Mid-to-late career Giggs would probably make the list (the earlier version was too reliant on his pace & dribbling). Beckham as well.
Eden Hazard, never a bad decision on the pitch. Maybe David Silva too but not sure you would call either a winger but they certainly played on the wing a lot.
Chislenko is up there with the best.
As for the question, its Beckham.
Yeah I'd agree with playing on both wings (shows flexibility and adaptability) and centrally (the real test of decision-making and awareness). I'd put a lot of weight on the latter actually as it's a 360 degree game in the centre of the pitch compared to a 180 one on the flank, where the range of solutions is wider.
So a few players who have done well at both - Donadoni, Giggs, Barnes, Figo, B Laudrup, Nedved, Pires. And crucially all were motivated primarily by the needs of the team rather than just personal glory.
I will answer only a pure winger, that means inside forward(Ronaldo,Messi), wide playmaker or midfielder ( Hagi, Iniesta) or mixed of two types like Neymar and Ronaldinho wouldn’t be counted. Figo would be on the top of my list, his playmaking and passing skills are on top of the notch due to his vision and intelligence. He also played brilliantly at central( which is a different view of the game).
Ribery is another one in my choice, he has exceptional vision from the wing. Probably one of the best that I’ve seen from any wingers. He also could make any of passes that he wants too and unlike Robben he always makes a great decision, when he’s playing.
Sir Tom Finney is always impressed in term of creativity and passing, old version of Ryan Giggs was great at this department too. John Barnes can be on this list for sure. Dzajic for me is one of the best at this department and no one mentioned him, he outsmarted opponents by skills, tricks and intelligence and that’s why he is considered to be one of the best dribblers of all time and he had great decisions between dribbling and passing( not one trick pony dribbler). Another underrated one probably Di Maria.
Even watching this you will see his intelligence of the game, especially outsmarted markers( Camacho and Vogts are the famous names).
Ribery is another one in my choice, he has exceptional vision from the wing. Probably one of the best that I’ve seen from any wingers. He also could make any of passes that he wants too and unlike Robben he always makes a great decision, when he’s playing.
Sir Tom Finney is always impressed in term of creativity and passing, old version of Ryan Giggs was great at this department too. John Barnes can be on this list for sure. Dzajic for me is one of the best at this department and no one mentioned him, he outsmarted opponents by skills, tricks and intelligence and that’s why he is considered to be one of the best dribblers of all time and he had great decisions between dribbling and passing( not one trick pony dribbler). Another underrated one probably Di Maria.
Even watching this you will see his intelligence of the game, especially outsmarted markers( Camacho and Vogts are the famous names).
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I think it’s Giggs. His midfield career in his mid 30s proved it imo.
It feels like the easy option but Cristiano is definitely up there. There was a period between about 2007 and 2012 where you'd never see him make the wrong decision on a counter attack. His choice of pass, choice of run and finish were almost always excellent.
Other standout choices from my time watching football would be Ribery and Hazard (when he could be arsed). Both of which you'd never see make a wrong decision when their team was on the ball.
Other standout choices from my time watching football would be Ribery and Hazard (when he could be arsed). Both of which you'd never see make a wrong decision when their team was on the ball.
United’s version was only 2-3 years( I wouldn’t count 2003-2006) and he transformed to full time forward in Madrid( even played at striker a lot of times ).
Yeah Cristiano is one of the goat( if not the goat) of counter attacking players, especially in Mourinho era.
The problem with this question is how are you defining winger? outright, touchline hugging wingers, wide midfielders, wing-forwards, inside-to-out-forwards and all the sub-categories fall under the same umbrella of 'wide-man' and all bring a different kind of intelligence to the role.
Do Cruyff and Rumenigge entire this discussion, for example? Boniek, Blohkin, Czibor, Overath, Nedved, Figo, Gento, Matthews all come to mind.
What I admire personally is the faster wingers who actually think on the hop. Slower ones don't have that choice; everything they do has to be considered because they didn't have the attributes to simply burn past or through opposition all game long, but those wide players that did, but still played within a team construct and made wise and considered choices more often than not, for me, that's something more special because they didn't have to - they could just mindlessly blaze through swathes of opposition and head down blast the ball or cross into an expected space and their job would still have merit and plaudits, so that's a more special mind, to me.
Do Cruyff and Rumenigge entire this discussion, for example? Boniek, Blohkin, Czibor, Overath, Nedved, Figo, Gento, Matthews all come to mind.
What I admire personally is the faster wingers who actually think on the hop. Slower ones don't have that choice; everything they do has to be considered because they didn't have the attributes to simply burn past or through opposition all game long, but those wide players that did, but still played within a team construct and made wise and considered choices more often than not, for me, that's something more special because they didn't have to - they could just mindlessly blaze through swathes of opposition and head down blast the ball or cross into an expected space and their job would still have merit and plaudits, so that's a more special mind, to me.
Rooney on the wing in our champions league Ronaldo era.
Dutch greats are likely to score highly in this too because of the way they are taught to play the game. Resenbrink, Keizer, Moulijn and Robben, in particular.
I'm thinking more traditional touchline wingers. Someone who played like Nani did for us when on the right.
@Synco had made an excellent table about classification of positions between wingers, forwards and strikers.
I definitely agree with almost everyone in his table ( only Rensenbrink which I count him as wide-forward, since he had played forward at both Netherlands and Anderlecht).
I definitely agree with almost everyone in his table ( only Rensenbrink which I count him as wide-forward, since he had played forward at both Netherlands and Anderlecht).
| Wingers & wide midfielders | Forwards | Strikers |
| Figo | Pelé | G. Müller |
| Beckham | Messi | Luis Ronaldo |
| Best | Cruyff | van Basten |
| Giggs | Cristiano | Romario |
| Matthews | Ronaldinho | Seeler |
| Finney | Eusébio | Law |
| Garrincha | Puskás | Elkjær |
| Overmars | Di Stéfano | Suarez |
| Keizer | Blokhin | Kocsis |
| Džajić | Rummenigge | Greaves |
| Nedvěd | Gullit | Nordahl |
| Rensenbrink | Jairzinho | Batistuta |
| Rahn | Kubala | Shevchenko |
| Corso | F. Walter | Bican |
| Grabowski | Rivaldo | Fontaine |
| Rep | Moreno | Deak |
| Lato | Zizinho | Vava |
| Gadocha | Pedernera | Inzaghi |
| Johnstone | Hidegkuti | Streich |
| Robben | Sívori | Villa |
| Ribery | V. Mazzola | Larsson |
| Conti | Scarone | Ademir |
| Causio | Rocha | Erico |
| Czibor | Savicevic | Klinsmann |
| Julinho | Simonsen | Piola |
| Gento | T. Müller | Riva |
| Hamrin | Ivanov | Charles |
| Pepe | Arshavin | van Nistelrooy |
| Zé Roberto | Hoeneß | Papin |
| Amancio | Baggio | H. Sanchez |
| Littbarski | Sarosi | Lewandowski |
| Barnes | Sindelar | Rooney |
| Pires | Henry | Weah |
| Futre | F. Albert | Lineker |
| Di Maria | Neymar | Völler |
| Joya | Stoichkov | Eto'o |
| Cubilla | Bergkamp | Spencer |
| B. Laudrup | Bene | Drogba |
| Donadoni | Kempes | Careca |
| Ginola | Del Piero | Shearer |
| Ghiggia | Totti | Vieri |
| Moulijn | Griezmann | Agüero |
| Waddle | Salah | Torres |
| Chislenko | Mané | Rush |
| Jair | Bale | Trezeguet |
| Zebec | Streltsov | Crespo |
| Heynckes | Rossi | |
| Francescoli | Krankl | |
| Keegan | Kluivert | |
| Dalglish | ||
| Boniek | ||
| Vukas | ||
| Van Himst | ||
| Zola | ||
| Tostao | ||
| Raul | ||
| Bebeto | ||
| Tevez |
Rules out a ton of players, that. Gento, Matthews and the like, is what you're looking for? Does Ronaldo count? As he borders winger and wing-forward at his best for Madrid.
My top 4 would be Garrincha, Czibor, Robben and Figo
I don't like the idea of limiting intelligence to just the touchline. The most intelligent ones should know when to put the ball inwards and know when to make runs inwards resulting in goal scoring opportunities. So essentially should have a good goal scoring ratio along with an impressive assists tally.
Figo makes the cut even if he hasn't met the above criteria just for the reasons mentioned in one of the posts above. His versatility anywhere across the breadth of the pitch while maintaining the world class quality is unmatched in history.
Czibor deserves a special mention as not just Koscis but even Puskas appreciated his game intelligence especially for a 2 striker system. He always knew which one of Puskas or Koscis to send the ball to. Add to that his more than decent goal scoring numbers.
Best did not make the cut as I don't think he always made very intelligent decisions.
I don't like the idea of limiting intelligence to just the touchline. The most intelligent ones should know when to put the ball inwards and know when to make runs inwards resulting in goal scoring opportunities. So essentially should have a good goal scoring ratio along with an impressive assists tally.
Figo makes the cut even if he hasn't met the above criteria just for the reasons mentioned in one of the posts above. His versatility anywhere across the breadth of the pitch while maintaining the world class quality is unmatched in history.
Czibor deserves a special mention as not just Koscis but even Puskas appreciated his game intelligence especially for a 2 striker system. He always knew which one of Puskas or Koscis to send the ball to. Add to that his more than decent goal scoring numbers.
Best did not make the cut as I don't think he always made very intelligent decisions.
The reason I mentioned touchline was just to exclude more forward or midfield types. I agree playing the ball infield is important and part of good decision making. I think the General's list of wingers is pretty good for this purpose.
It's interesting you have Garrincha there. To me he seemed to hold onto it way too long at times and should have passed it on earlier.
It's @Synco list, not me.
All I meant was the one you'd posted, that's all.
Well, if he did pass it earlier, it wouldn't really be the Garrincha that people loved to see dancing on and around the ball. But when he did pass/cross, it usually did end up in a good/great chance. And of course, was a pretty good scorer as well. I wouldn't want to define intelligence keeping just the Pep school of football in mind where the collective triumphs everything else. Selfish players can be very intelligent too.
I was definitely surprised to not seem him mentioned in the thread thus far as was the first name that came to my mind.
Funnily enough, my association of intelligence and Garrincha comes by way of his ’62 World Cup where he not only played a different position, but became a selfless hub and conduit for the team.
As a winger, if I’m so much better than you that it’s child’s play, you don’t get to appreciate the intelligence over the talent in Garrincha’s case because he was such a showman. Intelligence for the team is seen in a different light to intelligence for the individual, too, I think. Someone like Czibor is going to get more plaudits in that team regard than Garrincha, if we talk about team and pure wing-play, same goes for Gento and Matthews. Self-indulgence tends to be a knock on wingers, much more than central players, interestingly enough.
I've not watched enough of him closely enough to be sure, but Keizer seems like someone that could be a great choice for combining a lot of elements of the dominant pre-70s outside left/right way of playing, and great game intelligence. He played much more traditionally, than the next generation of 4-3-3 wide fowards like Rensenbrink and Rep who mostly departed with that older style imo. Seems to be often considered the best of the 65-74'ish Ajax era after Cruyff and has great numbers, albeit the Dutch league was a often high scoring one compared to most other good leagues.
Cristiano Ronaldo Ryan Giggs and David Beckham
He's obviously not of the standing for this thread, but Steve Coppell is famed for his intelligence as a winger.
Shouldn't Best also be classified as a forward. I mean the more I watch of him, the more he seemed like a wide forward than a byline hugging and whipping crosses/pull back pass winger.