Lack of CL football may hamper us in our transfer dealings due to reduced funds or maybe we've been lucky enough that this season we're getting rid of players on high wages which in itself should generate more money but I can't see it effecting too much the caliber of players brought in. I think young players would forsake 1 season of CL football if they thought we were heading in the right direction which, at least from the outside it looks like we're making strides in the right direction. As for the older type of player who it may influence my own thoughts are we should stay way clear. FDJ as an example would be a stellar signing and his relationship with ETH may influence his decision more than lack of CL football if he where to leave Barca.
Who was worse - Rangnick or Ole?
- Thread starter PoTMS
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Yeah some would no doubt but others definitely won't when a CL team presents them with the same financial package we are offering. But it isn't just about CL football next season we've been dropping in and out of CL qualification for years now post SAF.
14-15 No European Football
15-16 Champions League
16-17 Europa League
17-18 Champions League
18-19 Champions League
19-20 Europa League
20-21 Champions League
21-22 Champions League
22-23 Europa League
Had we qualified for the CL this season we could point to 3 seasons in a row in the CL with 19-20 the only blip over the last 6 years and legitimately call ourselves as a consistent CL side. But with being in the EL again we just look like an inconsistent yoyo side. Some players might look at that and decide they don't want to risk playing in the EL every second or third season.
They were both equally terrible, but Ole got better results. Whatever the circumstances behind those results (Liverpool’s injuries, Chelsea having an even worse manager in charge), he still got them. Rangnick genuinely had nothing going for him aside from talking a good game. He has to be a better consultant.
I would think that players look at more than CL football before deciding. Game time. wages and having an exciting project would be fundamental . Wages are definitely in our favour. I'd guess many talented players would look at clubs and wonder if the amount of game time they would get would be worth it. We're short in so many areas so maybe they'd feel they'd have more of a chance of cementing a place with us rather than being in and out at other clubs and with ETH as our manager im sure players could look at it as an opportunity not to be wasted playing for potentially one of the best managers around.
Supporters still think that no top player would come near us but I think as a whole package we're still one of the most viable options out there and would still be a massive step up for 99% of transferable players out there especially now that we've ditched our blueprint of the last decade which was not having any sort of direction which could (and did) put a lot of players off. The times they are a changing.
I still think it's possible for us to attract the vast majority of players CL football or not. But all I'm saying is a lack of CL football does make the recruitment process harder, there will be players put off by the lack of CL or some we might have to offer more money to, to make up for the lack of CL football. Especially if they have a similar financial package on offer from a team that has qualified.
I hope it doesn't affect our transfers at all but just think it's a distinct possibility.
Lack of CL for one season isn't a big deal. It's the fact the club has been out of contest for the major titles for close to a decade is what should honestly make any top player run away unless all they care about is money.
People can say that they will think we are going in the right direction and all these optimistic things but the reality is no one will know for sure if the club is improving or not till it starts to happen and considering the last 9 or 10 years, doesn't look like it's worth the risk for any top player.
Still, a lot of players care about money more than anything else so we will have a good chance in the market. We have to accept that for the moment the only thing we can offer any upcoming player is ton of money.
People can say that they will think we are going in the right direction and all these optimistic things but the reality is no one will know for sure if the club is improving or not till it starts to happen and considering the last 9 or 10 years, doesn't look like it's worth the risk for any top player.
Still, a lot of players care about money more than anything else so we will have a good chance in the market. We have to accept that for the moment the only thing we can offer any upcoming player is ton of money.
The changes in structure has started. It will take a season to see the effects. The summer transfers will show some early. Let’s be patient and also optimistic.
53% of the Caf say Rangnick 
Ole Gunnar Solskjær as the manager is probably the worst thing that happened to the club in the last 40+ years. He's gone now but the damage he did will be felt in the next couple of years.
Does anybody really believe that if Ralf was given 400+ millions & 3 years things would be this bad? It wasn't easy to come in mid-season to a dressing room full of pampered babies by the previous manager and improve results. Even if he helps us get rid of those players then it should be considered as a big success.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær as the manager is probably the worst thing that happened to the club in the last 40+ years. He's gone now but the damage he did will be felt in the next couple of years.
Does anybody really believe that if Ralf was given 400+ millions & 3 years things would be this bad? It wasn't easy to come in mid-season to a dressing room full of pampered babies by the previous manager and improve results. Even if he helps us get rid of those players then it should be considered as a big success.
Again this nonsensical stat being peddled about without any context.
Why don't we have a look at their respective stats from this season alone instead of comparing 3 seasons under ole versus a few months under rangnick whilst also ignoring the fact that this is ole's team which he coached for 3 seasons and invested hundreds of millions in compared to rangnick who inherited ole's team as an interim midseason and had no time to coach or build his team by bringing in players. Anyways lets look at them stats since you like them so much!
Who would have known that rangnick actually got more points per match than ole this season
.When ole was sacked we were 8th, under rangnick we finished 6th.This is also ignoring the fact that ole started this season on a high relative high compared to rangnick who's reign started when shit had already hit the fan with players already checking out and at each others throats and insubordination.
And allow me to finish by saying that rangnick did not create this mess, sure he couldn't clean up the turd plastered against the walls but surely more blame lies on those who actually plastered turds on the walls to begin with. No ?
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Again this nonsensical stat being peddled about without any context.
Why don't we have a look at their respective stats from this season alone instead of comparing 3 seasons under ole versus a few months under rangnick whilst also ignoring the fact that this is ole's team which he coached for 3 seasons and invested hundreds of millions in compared to rangnick who inherited ole's team as an interim midseason and had no time to coach or build his team by bringing in players. Anyways lets look at them stats since you like them so much!
Who would have known that rangnick actually got more points per match than ole this season
This is also ignoring the fact that ole started this season on a high relative high compared to rangnick who's reign started when shit had already hit the fan with players already checking out and at each others throats and insubordination.
And allow me to finish by saying that rangnick did not create this mess, sure he couldn't clean up the turd plastered against the walls but surely more blame lies on those who actually plastered turds on the walls to begin with. No ?
Ragnick achieved a mighty 0.04 points per game more in considerably more games in arguably easier games aswell and your selling that as some sort of posistive spin for him, bear in mind Ole was sacked after a very poor start to the season and some awful results that was largely blamed on his incompetence. The squad was capable and any half decent manager should of got more out of them.
Under Ole we were wildly inconsistent, some times good some times awful and that could be across single games. Under Ralf there was not one good performance In all 29 of his games, a new manager with fresh ideas and a clean slate for everyone made no Improvement and took a team in free fall in a toxic environment and actually made it worse, that is some achievement.
The question is simply who was worse. Stats prove it was ole.
To mitigate the stats you brought in "very poor start to the season", "we were wildly inconsistent" as a way to explain why ole isn't worse. But to that my response is that ole is to blame for a poor start to the season because he had a fecking pre season to implement whatever he wanted to do, is it not ole's fault that we were inconsistent ? This is his team, he bought players and coached them. None of this applies to rangnick.
And let us not pretend that in the first half of the season ronaldo didn't bail us out numerous time whilst we were producing turd on the field, if not for ronaldo's heroics them ole's stats would be worse and we would have not even qualified for europa because we would have finished last in the group. And let us also not pretend under rangnick we got a few draws which we should have easily won because we created a tonne of chances, if only our players could tap in the ball infront of open goals amongst other sitters.
Most of our players are not utd quality and have a shit attitude on top of it, I don't blame rangnick for airing dirty laundry in public. He only stated what most fans already knew and it was refreshing to see after getting used to ole brushing it under the carpet. Ole was their mate and protected them at every opportunity and allowed them to do basically whatever they wanted and they still downed tools and got him sacked. If that doesn't show you what snakes we're dealing with then nothing will.
This clean slate, fresh ideas bollocks doesn't work with players who are experienced in getting managers sacked. Read the fecking leaks, the players had already checked out months ago and didn't give a flying feck what rangnick instructed them to do. Im sure after the current clean slate by ten hag mcfred will turn into prime xavi-iniesta and rashford- shaw into ronaldo-evra. We should might aswell offer pogba and lingard a contract aswell since "clean slate" and "fresh ideas" is all what it takes. What you are hoping for is for a new manager to polish turd, good luck but don't hold your breath.
if the question is who was the worse manager in terms of results, it's Rangnick but if the question is who did the most damage, that's gotta be Ole, he's probably the worst in that case post SAF. The financial damage that he has done with his signings and keeping players we didn't need who are now going to leave on a free, we are going to feel that for quite a few transfer windows.
I know what you are saying mate. I think he will have 11s that have 9 of the same players that played under Ralf, and he will get a lot lot more out of them. I guess that is what I am saying.
This is also ignoring the fact that RR had to deal with:
- Greenwood being exposed as a scumbag. There goes a massive part of our attack and someone who wins matches on their own.
- Martial going out on loan. There goes another attacking option
- Cavani being MIA for most of the time. There goes another attacking option.
- Shaw being injured for much of his time. There goes our best LB by a distance.
- Fred & McTominay being absent for a while. There goes our first choice midfield pairing.
Thats ignoring all of the mess in effort levels, application and attitude exhibited by the players.
Did RR do well? No. Was he worse than Ole. Not even in the same ballpark. Ole spent hundreds of millions and build a toxic mess of a squad that was entirely his own and never got more than half a tune out of them. I really hope that ETH can turn the club and culture around over the coming years and perhaps the fans will start to truly appreciate how fecking awful Ole was as a manager.
That was the previous 2 seasons.
This season Ole was consistent though, consistently awful.
I do agree with the notion Ralf failed miserably, but trying to use this to paint Ole as in any way or shape successful is ridiculous considering everything.
Ole's experience was a huge failure from start to finish. It yielded nothing worthy to the club, we won nothing, competed for no major trophy, and even all the talk about "cultural reset" and "rebuilding to leave the club in better shape than what he inherited" turned out to be nonsense. The culture around the club is still ridiculously toxic, the atmosphere around the team is awful and the squad looks to be in need of another huge rebuild in every position. Ten Hag looks to have a huge job on his hand just to finish top 4 next season.
That's the result of close to 3 years of full job and ton of money spent under Ole. He was backed the most, spent the most, and achieved far less than the other managers before him.
So Ralf's failure will never paint Ole as a good manager for United. Ralf failed indeed and failed miserably, his coaching sucked and he couldn't gain the truth of the team or improve the football or the results. I was against him getting the permanent job from the start when some wanted him to, even when we weren't bad under him at the start.
Does that change anything regarding Ole ? Hell no.
Who was worse ? I'll choose a manager who stayed for 3 years achieving and winning nothing and leaving the club in a terrible state ahead of an interim manager who managed for 29 games (just half a season) any time any day. Logic says that, easily.
Wow. I thought there were others who were the leaders of the Ralf cult. Nope, you’re the Grand Poohbah. Most of the others have gone into their caves, licking their wounds with a poster of Ralf holding his one, single solitary trophy high above his head, fervently plotting his return to “glory”.
Let me get this straight. The entire crux of your argument rests on a 0.04 points per game difference in league play? Conveniently ignoring cups? Conveniently ignoring win %? Conveniently ignoring the entire record of Ole at United? Ignoring the reports of terrible training sessions, poor assistant coaches? Having or deciding to use a coach in Locomotive Moscow to prepare tactical analysis (late) for matches? Getting in-game adjustment decisions from the same coach in Moscow because he couldn’t figure it out with his staff or on his own? A 22% win percentage after January? Finishing 13 points off 4th after coming in 3 points off of 4th? Starting Phil Jones in a back 3 after one training session of prep, with our worst defender, Dalot marking Mo Salah?
It’s like taking the weather data from Pune, India over the last year, seeing a tiny drop in average temperature, and declaring climate change a hoax. It’s called confirmation bias, or looking for a single statistic that upholds a belief or theorem, but ignoring multiple data points that dispute and clearly prove that belief was false.
Ole wasn’t good enough and needed to go. But that doesn’t mean that Ralf was a better coach, or manager.
He achieved less than Moyes? Really? Van Gaal had an FA Cup, but Ole’s table positions were better. I agree that Jose achieved more, and was our best manager after SAF, by a wide margin, but it was a pretty toxic atmosphere.
Rubbish comparison. One got us the best of a bad group and the other was to deal with the collapse. RR can not be judged with the shit show that was happening with our team.
A better comparison is with our multi season managers. There Ole was the best. Made us relevant for a top club in the PL. Not that it mattered in the end though.
A better comparison is with our multi season managers. There Ole was the best. Made us relevant for a top club in the PL. Not that it mattered in the end though.
Both were fecking shit but with Rangnick he spoke honestly about how shit the players/team were. With Ole he just kept smiling (even after defeats) which annoyed me even more.
Let me get it straight, rangnick needed to go aswell. However that doesn't mean he did more damage than ole. Now lets get into your points:-
You only brought up stats. Stats are stats and they show rangnick got 0.04 points more than ole using ole's own assembled and coached team.
Stats include every game this season including cup competitions.
Apart from winning and losing games you can also draw games. Thats why points per match is used.
You want to ignore 3 seasons under ole v few months under rangnick ? You think that's a fair comparison ? I think not.
Them players were bitching and moaning about ole aswell. You think we should support players bitching and moaning because rangnick asked them to train in the evening ?
Stick to points per match over the entire season instead of taking out win percentages arbitrarily from in between the season. An ridiculous example - ole had a 0% win rate in november (
)I'd take dalot over awb everyday unless you want to play counter attacking football like we've been doing for a few years without anything to show for it. Dalot wasn't playing when the dippers ran riot at ot and smashed us 5 nil, what happened then ?
No shit! So did rangnick.
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How many points per game did Ole get from December 2018 to June 2019?
You want to compare a marathon to a 100m sprint ?
For a fair comparison you need a fair base to judge both therefore their performance this season is being used.
How will you judge rangnick from dec 18 to june 19 ?
Infact even using this season isn't fair because 1) rangnick didn't get a preseason like ole did, 2) he wasn't backed in the transfer window and 3) this isn't his team, it is ole's team, coached to play the way ole wanted.
But go on shit on objectivity.
Nah mate you were only comparing who was worse this season. The other poster was pointing out that that ignores the good games he's had. But yes, it's hard to do a perfectly fair comparison unless we gave Rangnick three years. Ole arguably earned his chance, did Ralf?
Ole did well until he didn't, Rangnick never did well at all. I'm actually baffled that this is considered a contest.
Making ole permanent was a mistake and so would making rangnick.
All that is irrelevant now, ole's tenure was worse for the club than rangnick. We will live with the repercussions of what happened in ole's tenure next season and the next after that. Rangnick failed to fix the mess he inherited no doubt but he wouldn't have been here in the first place if there was no mess to begin with.
Ralf's football was steaming garbage but his pressers and calling out the BS are legendary.
Ole's squad handling was good and the football was better than Ralf's but he lacked the necessary ruthlessness in the transfer windows - Pogba and Lingard should be walking for fees not frees. (Could have been more due to Woodward, Judge and co. though)
Either way Mourinho is looking like a genius again.
Ole's squad handling was good and the football was better than Ralf's but he lacked the necessary ruthlessness in the transfer windows - Pogba and Lingard should be walking for fees not frees. (Could have been more due to Woodward, Judge and co. though)
Either way Mourinho is looking like a genius again.
You have decided to die on the Hill of Ralf Rangnick, I’m just not sure why. Maybe pride? Previous posts have pushed you into a corner? Fanatical hatred of Ole?Let me get it straight, rangnick needed to go aswell. However that doesn't mean he did more damage than ole. Now lets get into your points:-
You only brought up stats. Stats are stats and they show rangnick got 0.04 points more than ole using ole's own assembled and coached team.
Stats include every game this season including cup competitions.
Apart from winning and losing games you can also draw games. Thats why points per match is used.
You want to ignore 3 seasons under ole v few months under rangnick ? You think that's a fair comparison ? I think not.
Them players were bitching and moaning about ole aswell. You think we should support players bitching and moaning because rangnick asked them to train in the evening ?
Stick to points per match over the entire season instead of taking out win percentages arbitrarily from in between the season. An ridiculous example - ole had a 0% win rate in november (
I'd take dalot over awb everyday unless you want to play counter attacking football like we've been doing for a few years without anything to show for it. Dalot wasn't playing when the dippers ran riot at ot and smashed us 5 nil, what happened then ?
No shit! So did rangnick.
Again, I’ve tried to explain confirmation bias to you, but you seem to misunderstand. One more thing — I know it’s not popular and fancy, but many, many great managers and teams have used counter-attacking to great effect. Zidane, Ancelotti, SAF, Simeone, Mourinho… if you look at the last 20 odd years of CL trophies, most — I think 15, were won by counter attacking sides. Tiki-taka Barca has won 3, and Bayern two and Liverpool with Klopp the only high press team to bring home the CL. Tuchel reverted to a counter-attack style last season. Pep hasn’t won a CL yet without Messi.
I guess I’m more into winning than style, and I would argue that counter-attacking moves are some of the most breathtakingly beautiful stuff I’ve seen on a pitch.
Oles period after the covid stoppage gives him the edge for me, an edge between two piles of steaming turd. At least that period got us playing great football and our last winning streak. I hate him he couldnt keep it up though.
We have a good start to the season. But everything suddenly turned negative after AWB got that early red card against young boys. We lost that game and then in EPL, our form started a deep dive. What happened actually? Isn’t it reasonable to guess the division in dressing room started then?
This is exactly what was said when Ole arrived.
Exactly, to a tee.
I won't believe anything has changed until we start seeing the manager able to make big decisions, for example, deciding that Rashford isn't good enough and should be sold, without the power of veto from the board.
IMO, I have seen nothing to suggest any real change is coming.
I realise that there are a lot of young fans here who want to "believe", but that won't work on a 47 year old man (me) who has seen this all before.
To make real change, I want to see ETH given absolute power, with the board unable to veto his footballing decisions - which I don't believe will happen.
IMO, the culprits (players) who caused our demise this season will all be here next season. The only players leaving are those who by their own choice, have ran down their contacts so they can force their way out of the club. And those players didn't feature much this season, anyway.
Basically, next season, the only change will be the manager, assistant manager and some coaches which ETH will bring with him. The main issue (player power and poor attitudes) will remain. These players WILL 100% throw ETH under the bus at some point in the next 3 years and if the last few managers are anything to go by, we know what the end result will be - manager gets replaced, fans get excited thinking that everything is about to change (read posts on this forum for proof that this is currently the stage we are in), new players are bought (read the transfer rumours), the poor performing players who need to be sold stay at the club (notice how there is very little talk of Maguire, Shaw, Telles, Fred, McT, etc, leaving) and then the new season starts with pretty much the same roster of players who failed the previous manager.
Everything is currently proceeding as it did when previous managers were hired (and subsequently failed).
You probably missed the real change in structure going on. See the post above by @Adnan.
Ole started off ok, did manage second place, but it was apparent once he was hired full time he wasnt going to be a winner as a manager.
Ragnick was terrible as a manager and lost a toxic dressing room very quickly. But he spoke with intelligence.
I think the most decisive factor, Rahnick had six months, lost the best young player at the club early on and didnt have a single transfer window. Ole spent nearly £400m in three windows here and singed one midfielder in VDB, that is dreadful, I do think Ragnick would definately have made better use of the window.
For me b oth were likable, honest and intelligent people, but neither were managers good enough to move us forward and win trophies
Ragnick was terrible as a manager and lost a toxic dressing room very quickly. But he spoke with intelligence.
I think the most decisive factor, Rahnick had six months, lost the best young player at the club early on and didnt have a single transfer window. Ole spent nearly £400m in three windows here and singed one midfielder in VDB, that is dreadful, I do think Ragnick would definately have made better use of the window.
For me b oth were likable, honest and intelligent people, but neither were managers good enough to move us forward and win trophies
Don’t think you can compare them honestly, Ole was bought in to take us back to winning ways and given full support by the board with transfer budget and new contracts then on the other hand you’ve got Ralf who wasn’t given no transfers and was bought in to fill a gap till the end of the season. One thing I would say is Ralf exposed all those wage thieves and will give a good recap to ETH of what’s what while Ole’s chat with Ralf probably went along the lines of “their a bunch of good lads”. If I had to pick I’d go with Ralf purely on the things I’ve pointed out!!!
I don't hate ole, I supported him till september after which it became untenable. In hindsight the players stopped playing for ole but at that time ole got the entire blame, now I don't think he should have received the entire blame because the snakes in the dressing room weren't as exposed as they're now because ole protected them even though they threw him the under the bus. They're upto the same antics with rangnick. Fool me once...
Granted neither manager was world class but they weren't as shit either to get outplayed by young boys, watford, brighton etc, performances like that only happen if players down tools.
Agreed with your points. Also, the so called “cultural reset” and “ great at assembling a team” were hogwash. All he saddled the club with was a bunch of pampered, weak minded, expensive mediocre players.
His highly acclaimed 2nd and 3rd placed finishes were irrelevant, achieved in empty stadiums and miles off any title and trophy challenge.
If anything, the only good thing from Ole’s reign is to hopefully wake up the board and some fans from the obsession with sentiment, dna and acceptance of mediocrity.
One bought players for over 400m and leaves us with some of the worst signings in Utd's history, the other one came wasn't allowed to buy a single player even though he pointed out our weak spots and was immediately undermined by the board that set the tone for his reign. There is no contest here Ole and his time at Utd goes down as one of the worst and most disappointing.
Hats off to these 53.6 percent people. They should get their own statues tbh.
Worst points total of the PL era, bravo Ralf. Well deserved place in history.
Ha ha, get over yourself. Why are you still sore when Wreck-It's history now anyway?
Sore.
I can see who's sore and will be forever. Tell me how's the cult doing nowadays? Are you guys gonna go mainstream once again to pull down ETH?