Who's good enough?

[freeurmind]

Given Ole's seemingly preferred 11:

DDG
AWB-Lindelof-Maguire-Shaw
Matic-Pogba
Greenwood- Fernandes Rashford
Martial

Who do people think is good enough RIGHT NOW to start in a team that can challenge for the Premier League/Champions League?

Personally I think only Shaw, Pogba and the front 4 are good enough and that we have a team that could be up there and put up a challenge but unless we upgrade 4 or 5 positions we won't be winning either trophy in the next 3-4 years. Thoughts?

 

[2 man midfield]

All of them, if they play to their ceiling. The problem is they’re a fairly young team which means a lot are inconsistent. If we got every player there firing on all cylinders every week, we’d be up there with City. Sancho and a bit of depth and we’d be up there with pool.

 

[Gopher Brown]

Given Ole's seemingly preferred 11:

DDG
AWB-Lindelof-Maguire-Shaw
Matic-Pogba
Greenwood- Fernandes Rashford
Martial

Who do people think is good enough RIGHT NOW to start in a team that can challenge for the Premier League/Champions League?

Personally I think only Shaw, Pogba and the front 4 are good enough and that we have a team that could be up there and put up a challenge but unless we upgrade 4 or 5 positions we won't be winning either trophy in the next 3-4 years. Thoughts?

I’m very surprised you consider Shaw good enough to help us challenge for the league. Left back would be my first priority for upgrade.

 

[romufc]

I’m very surprised you consider Shaw good enough to help us challenge for the league. Left back would be my first priority for upgrade.

What about Shaw do you think is not good enough?

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Under a top manager they can all be good enough. Under Ole I am not sure many of them are.

 

[Andycoleno9]

For PL challenge first 11 are not a problem. Sure, i would replace Maguire and AWB with some other options but it is what it is. They are here and they are good enough.

But our squad depth is awful. Romero, Bailly and Fred are only 3 players who i would keep in perfect scenario.

 

[Gopher Brown]

What about Shaw do you think is not good enough?

Injured far too often to be relied upon. When he does play, makes very little contribution in an attacking sense - crossing isn’t particularly good which you’d want from a fullback. Defensively often out of position, especially when he’s found jogging back during counter attacks.

But the injury thing is the main reason.

To add to that, not a single assist in the league this year. By comparison, the more defensively minded Wan Bissaka has 4.

 

[DCP]

Why would people say Maguire isn’t good enough? Really? Don’t think Maguire is the issue.

that first 11 should be competing, trouble is however that we are 1 injury away from it all falling apart. If any of Shaw, Maguire, Matic, Pogba, Fernandes, Martial, Rashford or Greenwood get injured then we are screwed.

We should be looking to sign a starter instead of Matic so he can rotate and someone who can play across that forward line - specifically right winger.

 

[Raw]

They're mostly good enough, it's just that the players in reserve are pretty pants which will be the main reason why we won't be winning the big trophies in the next couple of seasons.

A top RW (Sancho ) would elevate that attack to an incredible standard. A Matic replacement who can play a whole season to a high standard would also be needed. Our fullbacks need to contribute a hell of a lot more than they are now too, but defensively we're definitely good enough.

Of course it'll also require top management, so hopefully Ole will progress further in that regard and get the best out of these players.

 

[11101]

All of them. Our problem is no longer our first 11, it's what happens when they get tired or injured. We dont have a huge issue in defensive depth either, its midfield and especially attack where we drop off quickly. We have good midfielders on the bench but not for the style we want to play, and our reaerve attackers are pretty average.

The only starter you could argue against is Matic, another year older and he already struggles against certain teams.

 

[RedSky]

My thoughts below.

Spoiler

Player​	Good?​	Reasoning​
David de Gea	Yes	Last chance, if he continues to make errors this season then it's Hendos turn in 21-22
Dean Henderson	Unknown	Out on loan again.
Sergio Romero	Yes	Decent backup.
Lee Grant	Unknown	Does he get a game?
Joel Pereira	Unknown	See above.
Harry Maguire	Yes	Boss, needs more goals next season but excellent.
Victor Lindelöf	Yes	Much improved this year, solid first choice CB.
Eric Bailly	Debatable	Injury prone, shake it off this year otherwise sell next summer.
Chris Smalling	No	Will probably be sold.
Marcos Rojo	No	See above.
Axel Tuanzebe	Unknown	Not seen enough to know if he's capable backup. Injury prone.
Phil Jones	No	Should be sold, injury prone, cannot be relied on.
Luke Shaw	Yes	Defensively excellent, ok going forward. Really needs to shake off those injuries.
Brandon Williams	Unknown	He's young but needs to improve all areas of his game to become a decent backup.
Aaron Wan-Bissaka	Yes	Defensively brilliant, bad going forward but slowly improving. Very young and inexperienced still.
Diogo Dalot	No	Not good enough as a squad player.
Timothy Fosu-Mensah	No	A bit harsh but from what i've seen he's just not good enough as a fullack. Perhaps ok as a CB option, but not seen enough of him playing in that position.
Ethan Laird	Unknown	Hopefully will get chances next season.
Nemanja Matic	Yes	Experienced leader, when he plays we look much more composed.
James Garner	Unknown	Probably heading on loan.
Paul Pogba	Yes	Clearly good enough.
Scott McTominay	Yes	Decent squad option but needs to improve his passing as at times is very, very bad.
Fred	Yes	As a squad option he's ok.
Bruno Fernandes	Yes	Awesome.
Andreas Pereira	No	I still think he will be given another year. But he isn't good enough.
Juan Mata	No	Worst case scenario and he has to play more than once a week we'd be fecked.
Marcus Rashford	Yes	Clearly.
Daniel James	Unknown	Jury still out on James, he's regressed after his excellent start. His end product is very bad.
Jesse Lingard	No	We all know he's not good enough.
Tahith Chong	Unknown	Going out on loan.
Anthony Martial	Yes	Clearly.
Mason Greenwood	Yes	Double clearly.
Odion Ighalo	Unknown	Isn't used enough to know how good he is, I don't think we'll see much more of him.

Basically, our defensive depth is terrible, along with our attacking depth.

 

[KennyBurner]

What about Shaw do you think is not good enough?

For one his inability to beat the first man with his cross.

 

[KennyBurner]

The team is good enough to challenge. I love Ole but he will be the reason we can’t compete consistently.

yesterday why the feck were we playing a 4-1-1-1-3? It’s actually criminal how tactically inept we can be. Our players also don’t adjust well enough tactically when we are being pressed which is a coaching issue. Why can’t Ole put in extra hours on teaching these guys different variations on what to do when pressed? If we want to keep playing the way we do Ole has to prioritize this.

 

[Remember the geese]

All of them are good enough, simply on the basis that worse players than all of them in their respective positions have won league titles.

 

[Adisa]

Can't think of many better LBs than Shawn in this calendar year. He's been excellent and we miss him dearly.

 

[Rozay]

Cohesiveness will take us further than a personnel change I think. I think, a collective improvement in the defensive phase is needed, and then we need a better RB in possession I think.

 

[red4ever 79]

If you looking at individuals then there is an argument that perhaps half are not. Then again you could say the same about the midfield for Liverpool. I would argue that the system/tactics and instructions the team are given are more important.
Do we need to buy players? Of course, our squad depth is weak.

 

[romufc]

For one his inability to beat the first man with his cross.

Okay what about the rest? So a LB cannot beat first man means he isnt good enough?

You do realise what a LB role is? Left full back who can defend and help with build up play going forward.

Not every full back plays like Liverpool ones.

 

[Snow]

My thoughts below.

Spoiler

Player​	Good?​	Reasoning​
David de Gea	Yes	Last chance, if he continues to make errors this season then it's Hendos turn in 21-22
Dean Henderson	Unknown	Out on loan again.
Sergio Romero	Yes	Decent backup.
Lee Grant	Unknown	Does he get a game?
Joel Pereira	Unknown	See above.
Harry Maguire	Yes	Boss, needs more goals next season but excellent.
Victor Lindelöf	Yes	Much improved this year, solid first choice CB.
Eric Bailly	Debatable	Injury prone, shake it off this year otherwise sell next summer.
Chris Smalling	No	Will probably be sold.
Marcos Rojo	No	See above.
Axel Tuanzebe	Unknown	Not seen enough to know if he's capable backup. Injury prone.
Phil Jones	No	Should be sold, injury prone, cannot be relied on.
Luke Shaw	Yes	Defensively excellent, ok going forward. Really needs to shake off those injuries.
Brandon Williams	Unknown	He's young but needs to improve all areas of his game to become a decent backup.
Aaron Wan-Bissaka	Yes	Defensively brilliant, bad going forward but slowly improving. Very young and inexperienced still.
Diogo Dalot	No	Not good enough as a squad player.
Timothy Fosu-Mensah	No	A bit harsh but from what i've seen he's just not good enough as a fullack. Perhaps ok as a CB option, but not seen enough of him playing in that position.
Ethan Laird	Unknown	Hopefully will get chances next season.
Nemanja Matic	Yes	Experienced leader, when he plays we look much more composed.
James Garner	Unknown	Probably heading on loan.
Paul Pogba	Yes	Clearly good enough.
Scott McTominay	Yes	Decent squad option but needs to improve his passing as at times is very, very bad.
Fred	Yes	As a squad option he's ok.
Bruno Fernandes	Yes	Awesome.
Andreas Pereira	No	I still think he will be given another year. But he isn't good enough.
Juan Mata	No	Worst case scenario and he has to play more than once a week we'd be fecked.
Marcus Rashford	Yes	Clearly.
Daniel James	Unknown	Jury still out on James, he's regressed after his excellent start. His end product is very bad.
Jesse Lingard	No	We all know he's not good enough.
Tahith Chong	Unknown	Going out on loan.
Anthony Martial	Yes	Clearly.
Mason Greenwood	Yes	Double clearly.
Odion Ighalo	Unknown	Isn't used enough to know how good he is, I don't think we'll see much more of him.

Basically, our defensive depth is terrible, along with our attacking depth.

Props on the layout, mostly agree. Take issue with one argument. You say Dalot isn't good enough but jury is stil out on James. Because of Dalot's injury this season he's played less games for us than James. He's also been played as a winger more than we've liked. He's also 2 years younger than James in case people have forgotten about his age. He's basically not been fit in Ole's tenure so I think he deserves some time. He's got the right mentality from what I've heard from him.

 

[pacifictheme]

Our issue is not the quality of our first 11. The issue is every single player that comes after them. That is why we won't win the league.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

To challenge Liverpool & City right now

Matic, Pogba, Bruno, Martial

GK is too shaky, full backs are awful going forward, centre backs are mistake prone & Lindelof is too weak in the air, Greenwood is a wonder kid & could become something special, but he goes missing a lot, Rashford is top 6 level but not title challenger level.

Don’t even get me started on our bench. Horrific depth. Williams, McTominay, Lingard, Pereira, James & Ighalo are simply not good enough to play at the top level even as fringe players. Williams, Pereira & James aren’t even PL level.

 

[romufc]

Injured far too often to be relied upon. When he does play, makes very little contribution in an attacking sense - crossing isn’t particularly good which you’d want from a fullback. Defensively often out of position, especially when he’s found jogging back during counter attacks.

But the injury thing is the main reason.

To add to that, not a single assist in the league this year. By comparison, the more defensively minded Wan Bissaka has 4.

Injured too often? I can see where that comes from, he misses 1/3 of most seasons.

However, because AWB has 4 assists, does that make him better going forward?

If you watch Rashford and Shaw's link up, it is a big part of our play going forward.

 

[RedSky]

Props on the layout, mostly agree. Take issue with one argument. You say Dalot isn't good enough but jury is stil out on James. Because of Dalot's injury this season he's played less games for us than James. He's also been played as a winger more than we've liked. He's also 2 years younger than James in case people have forgotten about his age. He's basically not been fit in Ole's tenure so I think he deserves some time. He's got the right mentality from what I've heard from him.

True, my only argument would be that James has the excuse of settling into a new club, I tend to give new signings the benefit of the doubt for 18months then the red pen comes out. I'll be surprised if James is able to develop his game long term, he reminds me of a poor mans Lennon. Speed merchant with very little end product. If however he can develop his end product then he'd be a very useful option off the bench. Dalot will never make it as a RB, his only option is to try and be a winger and i'm just not convinced he's got the tools for that. End of the day though, I don't really blame either transfer as they were ultimately punts.

 

[romufc]

Can't think of many better LBs than Shawn in this calendar year. He's been excellent and we miss him dearly.

I can't believe the number of people who are on here saying we need a new LB as a priority. Luke Shaw has actually been one of our better players, I think there is so much to come from him.

If he can stay fit, I can see him being England's first choice too.

 

[b82REZ]

Injured far too often to be relied upon. When he does play, makes very little contribution in an attacking sense - crossing isn’t particularly good which you’d want from a fullback. Defensively often out of position, especially when he’s found jogging back during counter attacks.

But the injury thing is the main reason.

To add to that, not a single assist in the league this year. By comparison, the more defensively minded Wan Bissaka has 4.

Another case of judging a player on past experiences and stats.

It's no coincidence our attacking play has declined significantly since Shaw got injured. He drives the team forward and always offers and option on the overlap. Also arguably our best player to combat the high press.

It seems some players struggle to shake negative opinions and after Jose's relentless criticism of Shaw it seems many still agree with the Portugese. Although I admit his injury record is a concern.

 

[Massive Spanner]

It's not the squad that's the issue. is Pool's really that much better than ours? I don't think so. If Klopp had this side he'd probably be challenging with it. We won't win anything without a really top manager. Ole will hopefully build us a stronger team in the next year or two, though, he's done a pretty good job with the rebuild so far, at least, even though Bruno aside, his signings haven't been very good.

 

[b82REZ]

I can't believe the number of people who are on here saying we need a new LB as a priority. Luke Shaw has actually been one of our better players, I think there is so much to come from him.

If he can stay fit, I can see him being England's first choice too.

Another case of people forming an opinion in the past and not willing to move past it.

When fit Shaw has been our best defender this season and is easily our best full back.

Unfortunately because of his injury record and previous managers very public criticism of the player I think Shaw will always struggle to win over the fans.

 

[Ali Dia]

An injury to any one of about 6 players and we are in trouble.
Either Rashford or Greenwood no cover. If Martial or Greenwood lose form we have no rotation apart from James and Ighalo. Rashford is coming back from injury and hasn’t hit form yet. Hopefully it’s a matter of when not if with him.

Bruno- we don’t have other effective attacking midfielders.

Pogba yeah maybe McT and Fred can step in as box to box scrappers like last season.

Matic- pretty screwed.

Shaw- we go to playing a right footbed left back.

AWB- nobody has stepped up.

Maguire- lack of leaders.

Our squad is horribly short of quality. There won’t be a title challenge next year because as always there will be injuries and loss of form.

 

[Von Mistelroum]

Xxx
AWB-xxxxxx-Maguire-xxxx
Xxxxx-Pogba
Greenwood- Fernandes Xxxxxx
Martial

Completely honestly just these as starters or potential starters. The bar is pretty high these days.

 

[b82REZ]

For one his inability to beat the first man with his cross.

I assume you had the same criticism of Evra? Possibly one of the worse crossers of the ball I've ever seen, still mentioned as one of the great Lbs to play at the club. IMO Evra is only behind Irwin for the position, but the criticisms Shaw receives could have easily been applied to Evra.

TAA and Robertson are anomalies and its unfair to judge other FBs by their crazy numbers.

 

[romufc]

Another case of people forming an opinion in the past and not willing to move past it.

When fit Shaw has been our best defender this season and is easily our best full back.

Unfortunately because of his injury record and previous managers very public criticism of the player I think Shaw will always struggle to win over the fans.

I agree, his defensive ability is second to none. Not many attackers get joy from Shaw.

The problem with alot of fans is they are looking at stats only. They will go on twitter after a match and see Robertson or the like getting assists / goals completely ignoring how we play football.

If you watch how Shaw's performances, he was getting better and better. Not only that, Rashford plays better when Shaw is in the team.

Jose criticised Rashford, Martial and Shaw, the three players who have had fantastic seasons.

 

[Gopher Brown]

Injured too often? I can see where that comes from, he misses 1/3 of most seasons.

However, because AWB has 4 assists, does that make him better going forward?

If you watch Rashford and Shaw's link up, it is a big part of our play going forward.

It certainly makes him more effective

 

[Gopher Brown]

Another case of judging a player on past experiences and stats.

It's no coincidence our attacking play has declined significantly since Shaw got injured. He drives the team forward and always offers and option on the overlap. Also arguably our best player to combat the high press.

It seems some players struggle to shake negative opinions and after Jose's relentless criticism of Shaw it seems many still agree with the Portugese. Although I admit his injury record is a concern.

So we should keep Phil Jones, for example, as we can’t judge players on their past experiences and stats?

The biggest indicator of what the weather will be like tomorrow is the weather today.

 

[b82REZ]

So we should keep Phil Jones, for example, as we can’t judge players on their past experiences and stats?

The biggest indicator of what the weather will be like tomorrow is the weather today.

Don't be silly now.

But your opinion on Shaw is extremely lazy and dated. If you can't see the contribution he makes to our attacks and overall play im not sure what you're watching.

Our attacking play has fell off a cliff since his injury.

If you look at stats alone it doesn't tell the true story of the players influence on the pitch. Iniesta always springs to mind. One of the best midfielders to have played the game but his stats wouldn't suggest that if you looked at them in isolation.

 

[hobbers]

The problem is the players beyond the starting eleven as others have said.

Dalot, TFM and Williams are not good enough back ups at full back at this level. Not even close.
Bailly and Tuanzebe are never fit so basically no back ups at CB.
McTominay and Fred are not good enough to be playing holding midfield in a top four side. Matic isn't good enough to be playing in a title winning side either, he's horrific when he's played too often.
Lingard and Pereira are barely good enough to be on the bench for a relegation side, let alone us. Mata doesn't have the physicality to play Prem football.
James and Chong are Championship players.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Who do people think is good enough RIGHT NOW to start in a team that can challenge for the Premier League/Champions League?

First 11
Bruno Fernandes
Anthony Martial
Harry Maguire
Luke Shaw
Aaron Wan-Bissaka

Subs
Greenwood
Rashford (form since this restart is shaky, quality is still there)
Pogba (first 11 if in different system, not in this 4231 DMF)
Matic (useful vs low blocks, inconsistent)
McTominay (useful in big games)
Lindelof
Romero

Squad
Mata (useful once in a while, especially vs low blocks)
James (only if he can get back his good form, he definitely can perform in big games)
Williams (good cover, not in good form since this restart)
TFM (useful solid cover for now..)


Yes, no De Gea, I'm just not confident we can outdo the current City and Pool for the PL, nor making good comfortable run at CL with the mistakes maker David De Gea and I don't trust he'll be fine as sub. No Fred too because frankly I don't think we can win PL with his poor worthless form and he seems to be the type that need games to be finally play well so can't be a squad player.

With Ole, to win the league, we can only hope Pool and City have bad seasons. Both of em have both the system in breaking low blocks and quality of players needed. Ours in contrast only have the quality of players but lack the system to get points comfortably against the rest of the low blocks weak teams. Once Bruno's and other players' spiked individual top forms dry out, we'll struggle to scrape for points.

CL is more sudden luck based so we just might nick a good win steal.
No favorite teams always rightly win it.

 

[JakeTheRed]

What about Shaw do you think is not good enough?

Too often he overlaps the winger, gets the ball and stops & passes it backwards to the midfield. If he was more direct and had a good cross/attacking potential he'd be decent, but he doesn't. He's a typical player we've settled for at United, not someone who is going to win you a game or score/assist that important goal. He'd be useful as a squad player, but for me, regarding Luke Shaw, that's about as far as it goes unfortunately.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Okay what about the rest? So a LB cannot beat first man means he isnt good enough?

You do realise what a LB role is? Left full back who can defend and help with build up play going forward.

Not every full back plays like Liverpool ones.

Some folks are not too much picky regarding players. Requirements are:

Striker: 1,90m, 90kg, good in air. Can hold the ball.
Goalkeeper: Goes from the line on crosses
Central defender: good in air and is strongest person in club. Must be a bully.
Full back: Runs down the wing and cross the ball.
Midfielder: runs around and tackle people.
Winger: Speed. Speed. Speed.

 

[sammsky1]

My thoughts below.

Spoiler

Player​	Good?​	Reasoning​
David de Gea	Yes	Last chance, if he continues to make errors this season then it's Hendos turn in 21-22
Dean Henderson	Unknown	Out on loan again.
Sergio Romero	Yes	Decent backup.
Lee Grant	Unknown	Does he get a game?
Joel Pereira	Unknown	See above.
Harry Maguire	Yes	Boss, needs more goals next season but excellent.
Victor Lindelöf	Yes	Much improved this year, solid first choice CB.
Eric Bailly	Debatable	Injury prone, shake it off this year otherwise sell next summer.
Chris Smalling	No	Will probably be sold.
Marcos Rojo	No	See above.
Axel Tuanzebe	Unknown	Not seen enough to know if he's capable backup. Injury prone.
Phil Jones	No	Should be sold, injury prone, cannot be relied on.
Luke Shaw	Yes	Defensively excellent, ok going forward. Really needs to shake off those injuries.
Brandon Williams	Unknown	He's young but needs to improve all areas of his game to become a decent backup.
Aaron Wan-Bissaka	Yes	Defensively brilliant, bad going forward but slowly improving. Very young and inexperienced still.
Diogo Dalot	No	Not good enough as a squad player.
Timothy Fosu-Mensah	No	A bit harsh but from what i've seen he's just not good enough as a fullack. Perhaps ok as a CB option, but not seen enough of him playing in that position.
Ethan Laird	Unknown	Hopefully will get chances next season.
Nemanja Matic	Yes	Experienced leader, when he plays we look much more composed.
James Garner	Unknown	Probably heading on loan.
Paul Pogba	Yes	Clearly good enough.
Scott McTominay	Yes	Decent squad option but needs to improve his passing as at times is very, very bad.
Fred	Yes	As a squad option he's ok.
Bruno Fernandes	Yes	Awesome.
Andreas Pereira	No	I still think he will be given another year. But he isn't good enough.
Juan Mata	No	Worst case scenario and he has to play more than once a week we'd be fecked.
Marcus Rashford	Yes	Clearly.
Daniel James	Unknown	Jury still out on James, he's regressed after his excellent start. His end product is very bad.
Jesse Lingard	No	We all know he's not good enough.
Tahith Chong	Unknown	Going out on loan.
Anthony Martial	Yes	Clearly.
Mason Greenwood	Yes	Double clearly.
Odion Ighalo	Unknown	Isn't used enough to know how good he is, I don't think we'll see much more of him.

Basically, our defensive depth is terrible, along with our attacking depth.

Nice summary which I enjoyed reading.

Personally I think the first XI is goo enough, and were we can expect it to improve quite alot as it's so young and not been together for very long. Especially guys like AWB, Lindelof, Rashford and Greenwood who are still yet to reach their park.

The issue, as already been identified, is that they can't play every game, and we need around 5 or 6 more across various positions whom are equally good, to allow for competition and rotation. We cant afford that in one go, so will take at east 2 more transfer windows.

 

[romufc]

Some folks are not too much picky regarding players. Requirements are:

Striker: 1,90m, 90kg, good in air. Can hold the ball.
Goalkeeper: Goes from the line on crosses
Central defender: good in air and is strongest person in club. Must be a bully.
Full back: Runs down the wing and cross the ball.
Midfielder: runs around and tackle people.
Winger: Speed. Speed. Speed.

Funnily enough, I was chatting to a mate about Robertson, his defensive stats are not too different to Shaw. Liverpool generally dont get exposed as much because of their workhorse midfield.

Remember a year ago we had a proper no.9 and most of us were like we need someone who can control the ball, now they want the opposite.

It's a joke the level of expectations that some fans have.