Grylte
"nothing wrong with some friendly incest, bro"
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2014
- Messages
- 14,006
Both you and me could have won that league 3 seasons in a row with Ajax.Why no Erik Ten Hag? Going to end top for 3 seasons in a row
Both you and me could have won that league 3 seasons in a row with Ajax.Why no Erik Ten Hag? Going to end top for 3 seasons in a row
Klopp isn't the best manager in the world right now. If he was he wouldn't be 11 points behind Ole and 3 points behind Moyes in April.Liverpool's bad form doesn't change the fact that I would still take Klopp right now. He didn't become a bad coach over night, there are lot of factors for Liverpool's poor season. I remember all those threads and posts against Pep when they had a bad run, now everyone has him in his top 3 here ( rightly).
If Klopp , Ole , Moyes are on the market RIGHT NOW, out of 100 experts you ask, 100 will choose Klopp.
I'll be going out on a limb here and say he's currently not the best coach in the world.What the opinion on Jesse Marsch?
Yeah, need to see Tuchel over a longer period at Chelsea. He has a bit of Jose about him, in that he seems very tactically astute (Jose was, maybe not so much now) but seems to end up falling out with everyone one. Conte is another example of this.Tuchel's issue is sustainability in the long run. I also don't think that a couple of months, however good, are enough to significantly change one's opinion on the manager. He's still a shrewd tactician and a poor man-manager.
Agree with your points. Going through a squad cycle of 4-5 years is really interesting. Guardiola for his lovely football doesnt have the best transfer record. If Klopp hangs around how is he gonna replace and will it be successful, Firmino/salah/mane.Spin this on its head, how would a Pep, Klopp, OGS, Rodgers, Flick, Poch, Zidane, Allegri, Simeone etc get on at Sheffield United or Burnley?
It’s difficult to say who’s the best Manager, as surely each has different cultures and how they want teams to play.
Could you see a Pep playing the free flowing football he has had with Barca, Bayern and Man City at Sheffield United? Surely someone like Simeone would be better suited to that? Incidentally, I think Simeone would struggle at a club like Arsenal, as they don’t have that grit about them.
All this can be rectified in the long term, however most Managers / Head coaches don’t get 4 - 5 years now to overhaul a squad into the style they want. Most inherit a team of players that was built by the previous of 3 or 4 Managers.
As for Pep, yes, the team looks good. However he’s struggled to find an Aguerro replacement. He’s spent a boat load on players and you’d argue he had to get it right. Klopp has struggled this season as he’s not had the players to play his pressing style, so it’ll be interesting if they can rejuvenate themselves next year.
I would actually push back slightly on the notion that he's a poor man-manager - his use of Chelsea's entire squad has been in stark contrast to Lampard's approach and by all accounts players are happier now than under the last regime. It is probably fair to say that he was poor at this at the beginning - I know that at Mainz he had issues. Tuchel's main problem though is that he keeps getting into fights with the hierarchy.Tuchel's issue is sustainability in the long run. I also don't think that a couple of months, however good, are enough to significantly change one's opinion on the manager. He's still a shrewd tactician and a poor man-manager.
Lots of potential but needs to step up to a bigger league. Might face additional scrutiny for being American which won't help.What the opinion on Jesse Marsch?
That United are in second place is a fact, but it doesn't make me think he is some great manager. In contrast actually, there have been many other measures to show he is actually doing a quite poor job, think of cup exits, the distance between him and the league leaders, the brand of football, players that have improved/declined under his tenure.. and so forth. I find it as shocking as naming Fred under the top managers or Daniel James under the top wingers. And that relates to his classification, which tbh does insinuate I want him out sooner or later, but that wasn't the intention of the post. I just think he has no business to be named under these managers, and I'd think fellow United fans wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't but that's fair enough.It's not an exhaustive list, nor a definitive list. Ole is there becasue he's the current United manager, still second in the league last I checked. If I didn't include there would 20+ messages on why he isn't there. The spiirit of the thread is not Ole in or Ole out, it's just to have a footie convo on a slow international week.
Ten Hag is a decent shout. Good coach doing well with Ajax. Then again, he got looked over for the completely unproven Xabi Alonso for the the Moenchengladbach gig
(Famous last words before Ajax knocks us out Europa)
I don't see how that really makes sense when the same Ajax has been playing that same football in Europe, playing fantastic football against the bigger names in Europe. Got absolutely robbed vs Chelsea last season, but they really disappointed vs Getafe I must say.Farmers league.
Don't think that's even remotely true, the Eredivisie is quite poor. Meaning that even though you can be good, PSV/AZ is also good. They will also win their matches vs all the fodder, you really need to have the other teams to have meltdowns before you can stretch away. In the first season, PSV and Ajax went head to head and in the end PSV collapsed. In the second season, AZ actually was on equaly points to Ajax and in much better form. This season, Ajax has stretched the lead after buying Haller and PSV collapsing.Both you and me could have won that league 3 seasons in a row with Ajax.
I don't spend my day trying to find opportunities to take a shot at Ole, make a list of best midfielders and include Fred and I'd be equally surprised. I just think he has no business there, and I don't think any of what I said is hyperbole either. I don't think Ole is currently United manager because of how good a manager he is, nor why he is one of the best paid managers in the world because he's that good. He loves the club, and I think he is a good man-manager, and has good vision of where the club wants to be. Tactically just way out of his depth and his tenure so far has shown that on numerous occasions, I think there are a lot of much better managers out there than him.You knew what I meant and no matter how I would have said it, it didn't change the fact that you did not stay on course because you couldn't resist an opportunity to to take a shot at Ole. You couldn't even be decent about it and say something like I don't think Ole, x, y or z should be on the list, you had to go over the top by saying he is "not even a top 10 PL manager. He is lucky to inherit such a squad and have such funds, but tactically he's pretty horrible and I doubt any top club would want him". That's going out of your way to shit on the manager with hyperbole.
I swear this place has turned into a who can be the most divisive contest - you fit right in with a LOT of the current Cafe posters so, you do you. I am sure many are virtually high-fiving you right now.
I’m all for skewering blind Eurocentrism, but the simple fact is that in this day and age, if you’re not managing in one of a handful of leagues in Europe, you’re not managing at the highest level and thus you cannot be considered the best manager in the world.Amazing there is a discussion about best managers in the world but its just Europe really. Not sure how anyone can rate anyone has one of the best managers in the world without actually considering other managers from surprise surprise.....other parts of the world outside of Europe.
It's a question worth asking but I'm not sure if we should give it that much importance. I mean, in any sport, the very best are suited to the highest level. Big Sam possible being better at 'saving' shit teams doesnt make him a better manager than Pep or Zidane, just suited to something different (a lower level, namely). I do think Pep'sSpin this on its head, how would a Pep, Klopp, OGS, Rodgers, Flick, Poch, Zidane, Allegri, Simeone etc get on at Sheffield United or Burnley?
It’s difficult to say who’s the best Manager, as surely each has different cultures and how they want teams to play.
Could you see a Pep playing the free flowing football he has had with Barca, Bayern and Man City at Sheffield United? Surely someone like Simeone would be better suited to that? Incidentally, I think Simeone would struggle at a club like Arsenal, as they don’t have that grit about them.
All this can be rectified in the long term, however most Managers / Head coaches don’t get 4 - 5 years now to overhaul a squad into the style they want. Most inherit a team of players that was built by the previous of 3 or 4 Managers.
As for Pep, yes, the team looks good. However he’s struggled to find an Aguerro replacement. He’s spent a boat load on players and you’d argue he had to get it right. Klopp has struggled this season as he’s not had the players to play his pressing style, so it’ll be interesting if they can rejuvenate themselves next year.
It's also telling that Klopp failed to win the CL and won it only at Liverpool who have won 6 in their history with even Rafa managing to win one when they were crap. Clubs who have a history of winning these titles have an extra self belief an culture like Barcelona and Liverpool and unlike City and PSG for whom it's a mental block.While Pep’s Barca team were great and historic. I think it’s telling that Barca won the CL with both Rikaard and Enrique as managers, and Pep has not had European success or been to a final at either Bayern or City. Whereas Klopp having won the league with Dortmund and taken them to a CL final, repeated it with Liverpool and went one step further.
Also. Klopp was at Dortmund 8 years
Whats the craic with this Nagelsman? I cant find a record of him winning anything. Seems pretty in experienced, too.One of Klopp, Nagelsmann, Pep
Dislike them as much you want, but Klopp and Pep stand for attractive and successful football.
Nagelsman, its that name again! The Bundesliga doesnt seem all that, in depth.Hard to say. Guardiola obviously has a financial advantage over everyone else, but at the end of the day he's probably still on at the moment.
2. Klopp despite Liverpool's demise this season I'd still rank him the 2nd best in the world.
3. Flick, might win another treble this season.
4. Nagelsmann, has Leipzig punching above their weight which is always the sign of a great manager.
You really shouldn’t judge managers man-marking skills based on a brief spell after the last one was sacked. You’ll almost always get a boost in morale, the undercooked players get a clean slate etc. He has quite often fallen off with players as well as with management... although that’s something that he can work on and it’s possible that he’ll get more adaptable with age.I would actually push back slightly on the notion that he's a poor man-manager - his use of Chelsea's entire squad has been in stark contrast to Lampard's approach and by all accounts players are happier now than under the last regime. It is probably fair to say that he was poor at this at the beginning - I know that at Mainz he had issues. Tuchel's main problem though is that he keeps getting into fights with the hierarchy.
Hansi Flick -Pep by a margin. If he became our manager now, we would be genuine challengers again in 2023.
Klopp seems able to get a couple of very high level seasons from his teams before if implodes.
Jose has lost his sparkle.
Flick seems to be doing a good job at Bayern but too early to tell.
Tunchel i doing well at Chelsea but is in the honeymoon period.
Barca won their first Champions League title in 1992 I don't think they had any culture of winning Champions League they can't be compared to Liverpool in that sense, but they full took advantage during their golden period and become dominant force but for past few seasons they haven't been anything special and unlike Liverpool you never get that feeling that if they are outmatched by opponents on paper they can pull it off.It's a question worth asking but I'm not sure if we should give it that much importance. I mean, in any sport, the very best are suited to the highest level. Big Sam possible being better at 'saving' shit teams doesnt make him a better manager than Pep or Zidane, just suited to something different (a lower level, namely). I do think Pep's
It's also telling that Klopp failed to win the CL and won it only at Liverpool who have won 6 in their history with even Rafa managing to win one when they were crap. Clubs who have a history of winning these titles have an extra self belief an culture like Barcelona and Liverpool and unlike City and PSG for whom it's a mental block.
Sure that's fair to pump the brakes a bit regarding his impact on Chelsea given how toxic things were when he arrived. That said, I am struggling a bit to think of any players he fell out with at PSG, which is definitely a very tricky atmosphere to navigate given all the player power there. Maybe Cavani a bit? But even if so it was minor. I can't really recall any major issues he had with any players at Dortmund either.You really shouldn’t judge managers man-marking skills based on a brief spell after the last one was sacked. You’ll almost always get a boost in morale, the undercooked players get a clean slate etc. He has quite often fallen off with players as well as with management... although that’s something that he can work on and it’s possible that he’ll get more adaptable with age.
His team can't defend. His whole structure isn't built that way. He isn't building any prolonged legacy until he sorts that out.As for the question, I’d take Pep and then Nagelsmann — sure, Klopp is a better manager than the latter at the moment but I really feel like Nagelsmann can build a huge and prolonged legacy here.
His team has conceded 21 goals in 26 league games so far. That's the best result in Bundesliga and 14 goals less than probably the best team in the world (with whom he's still competing for the first place despite the vast difference in resources). Last season Leipzig's defense was second best in the league with 5 more goals conceded than Bayern.His team can't defend. His whole structure isn't built that way. He isn't building any prolonged legacy until he sorts that out.
BielsaThe ones I would take in order
Pep
Klopp
Bielsa
Nagelsmann
Zidane
You're lucky I didn't mention Graham Potter.Bielsa
Either way a team that has one the CL in 2006 or whatever it was, has that belief, especially when you consider the football they were producing and players they had. There was no 'fear' there, although of course their level also creates that confidence.Barca won their first Champions League title in 1992 I don't think they had any culture of winning Champions League they can't be compared to Liverpool in that sense, but they full took advantage during their golden period and become dominant force but for past few seasons they haven't been anything special and unlike Liverpool you never get that feeling that if they are outmatched by opponents on paper they can pull it off.
No it wouldn't. If Ole was in charge of City he would have played Silva, Foden and De Bruyne on the wing. He would never play those guys in centre midfield of a 4-3-3. He would perhaps play De Bruyne in the #10 but have Fernandinho and Rodri playing behind him in a 4-2-3-1Ole Gunnar Solskjaer.
Give him the teams Klopp or Pep have and the results would be just as good.
That superhero is bullshit.Cowman of course. Haven't you seen Barca? They do the whole tiki taka thing again and Messi is even attacking the space now.
Also, some random 12 year olds from La Masia have made their first team debute.
And who knows, City might be playing even better and scoring a lot more goals.No it wouldn't. If Ole was in charge of City he would have played Silva, Foden and De Bruyne on the wing. He would never play those guys in centre midfield of a 4-3-3. He would perhaps play De Bruyne in the #10 but have Fernandinho and Rodri playing behind him in a 4-2-3-1
I take your point that Barca had only won it once prior to the 21st century, but I think the point by @amolbhatia50k still essentially stands in that there is a definite difference between clubs that have won it before and those that are trying to win it for the first time in their history (e.g. PSG and Man City). There seems to be a ‘mental block’ there for the newcomers, especially as some of them were nowhere near any kind of high level European competition for decades and are only contenders now due to new money (not the case for Barca).Barca won their first Champions League title in 1992 I don't think they had any culture of winning Champions League they can't be compared to Liverpool in that sense, but they full took advantage during their golden period and become dominant force but for past few seasons they haven't been anything special and unlike Liverpool you never get that feeling that if they are outmatched by opponents on paper they can pull it off.