Who's the best coach/manager in the world right now?

NasirTimothy

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
257
Supports
Enyimba F.C.
1. that’s an outright and complete lie. Messi was never injured for half a season under Rijkaad.

2. stop with this diet stuff honestly. It’s fishing to the extreme. Players have shit eating and training habits at a young age. It’s normal. The people around them are supposed to change it.

3. completely changed his position? Yes I do recall Messi being left back under Rijkaard. Thank feck for Pep possessing the foresight to change him to an attacker/left sided forward .

4. For sure. Incredible foresight again to build your team around the player who every tom, dick and Harry at Barca had pencilled in as a generational talent.

5. I didn’t actually say Pep did nothing for him. I took exception to you saying “Also fair to say that Messi might not be the player that he is today without Pep”.
I can’t stress it enough, this is one of the most stupid comments I’ve ever read on here. (And last week I saw someone say Fred is as good as Kante)

Messi has had a near 15 reign as one of the best footballers in the world and you think that might not have happened because for three years Pep told him to stop drinking Irn Bru and eating dib dabs. I can use hyperbole too...

6. the absolute irony of you trying to pass this off as extreme fandom on my part :lol:

For what it’s worth, no I’m not a “Messi fan” in the sense you’re implying.
I just find it completely idiotic to claim the greatest player of all time somehow wouldn’t have become just that if it wasn’t for Pep Guardiola.
Have you seen the goals and things Messi has done over the years? Go and re watch and tell us how these might not have happened if not for Pep Guardiola.
If you’re not (as you say) a Messi fan, then you’re pretty emotional, and I’m not sure why. If you disagree, just say you disagree, don’t get all emotional because it doesn’t make you look very smart.

My statement that you quoted refers to how Messi may have been a different type of player if not for Pep. I never said he wouldn’t have been a great player.

Also please don’t assume that you know everything and no one else knows anything because that also doesn’t make you look very smart. I’ve watched his whole career, and the way he was trending prior to the false 9 switch was to the level of scoring that a Dinho (his idol and mentor) or a Maradona had. The position switch and the building of the team around him made a lot of difference.

If you think Messi would have scored the same amount of goals irrespective of coaching, position, set ups, systems and teammates, then I refer you to his Argentina career as exhibit A.

This is the last time that I’ll be responding to you because you are clearly incapable of civil discourse.
 

NasirTimothy

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
257
Supports
Enyimba F.C.
He was third in 2007 Ballon d'or and second in 2008. His age was 19 and 20. Ronaldinho was Barca's topscorer for the 06/07 season and he was nowhere near Messi in the ranking. Just think about how astonishing talented he was as a teen. He did all that before Pep became the main coach.

If there's any player destined for greatness its Messi. Pep Guardiola or not.
I never said he wasn’t destined for greatness, but you can be a great player without being a ridiculously prolific scorer. Pep helped him to become the prolific scorer that we know today
 

Speedy30

Liverpool Fan
Joined
Feb 25, 2013
Messages
1,352
Location
On the Kop
Supports
Liverpool
Wrong. Look at moyes. Sometimes a manager’s strength is not having to work with huge piles of cash
I only said that it was likely, not a guarantee. As with anything, there will always be exceptions to rule but a manager that has won leagues and cups already on a relatively small budget would more than likely do it with a bigger budget. Moyes hadn't won anything with Everton before joining Utd but in fairness to him, he wasn't given the time to win anything at Old Trafford
 

NasirTimothy

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
257
Supports
Enyimba F.C.
I only said that it was likely, not a guarantee. As with anything, there will always be exceptions to rule but a manager that has won leagues and cups already on a relatively small budget would more than likely do it with a bigger budget. Moyes hadn't won anything with Everton before joining Utd but in fairness to him, he wasn't given the time to win anything at Old Trafford
I think what you said makes sense, but as you mention, there are examples of managers winning with smaller clubs and then going to bigger clubs and not being as successful (even though they are operating on a bigger budget), so it’s not always cut and dried.

I’m happy to accept that Klopp has proven that he can do it on a smaller budget whereas Pep hasn’t, but we’d also have to say that Klopp hasn’t proven that he can stop his teams imploding spectacularly.

We’ve seen epic meltdowns with both Dortmund and Liverpool (after a couple of seasons of success) now. And though there may be mitigating circumstances in both cases, the manner of the drop off was still alarming. Everything has to be taken into account
 

thepolice123

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
11,339
I never said he wasn’t destined for greatness, but you can be a great player without being a ridiculously prolific scorer. Pep helped him to become the prolific scorer that we know today
In terms of scoring? Huge maybe. He has largely remained prolific after Pep left despite playing in poorer teams and in a different position.

Pep's system has undoubtedly improved the players performance on the pitch. But to say he wouldn't be the player he is today without Pep is really pushing it.
 

NasirTimothy

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
257
Supports
Enyimba F.C.
In terms of scoring? Huge maybe. He has largely remained prolific after Pep left despite playing in poorer teams and in a different position.

Pep's system has undoubtedly improved the players performance on the pitch. But to say he wouldn't be the player he is today without Pep is really pushing it.
He played 110 times for Frank R and scored 42 goals. Under Pep, this leapt up to 211 goals in 219 games. Obviously he kept up this scoring pace under managers post Pep but the major changes happened under Pep’s watch. He created the blueprint that others largely followed. I think this is significant. If you don’t, that’s perfectly fine.
 

thepolice123

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
11,339
He played 110 times for Frank R and scored 42 goals. Under Pep, this leapt up to 211 goals in 219 games. Obviously he kept up this scoring pace under managers post Pep but the major changes happened under Pep’s watch. He created the blueprint that others largely followed. I think this is significant. If you don’t, that’s perfectly fine.
You are not making a very strong argument out of this. He debuted at 17 and was 20 when Rijkaard left, clearly he was not going to put up earth shattering numbers.

Even before Pep's arrival he was already close to being the best player in the world. In his first season, he largely used Messi on the right, save for the occassional match and some big matches.

What blueprint exactly? The false nine is supposed to have him position deeper so that he can draw the defenders out for the wing forwards to attack. Its not specifically designed to improve his goal tally. Valverde played him in a #10 playmaking role and Enrique used him largely as a wing forward in a fluid front three, he maintained his goalscoring all the same.

I feel this false nine thing has been blown way out of proportion. Its not like thats the only position he played under Pep or other managers. Pep's genius is in designing the tiki-taka system. Messi's insane goal tally is entirely his own genius if you ask me.
 

NasirTimothy

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
257
Supports
Enyimba F.C.
You are not making a very strong argument out of this. He debuted at 17 and was 20 when Rijkaard left, clearly he was not going to put up earth shattering numbers.
Why not? Luis Ronaldo scored almost 200 goals by the age of 21. Pele scored 341 goals before turning 20. Messi is in that class, but playing on the wing obviously meant that he was not going to be that prolific


Even before Pep's arrival he was already close to being the best player in the world. In his first season, he largely used Messi on the right, save for the occassional match and some big matches.
Again, people are so oddly touchy about Messi that they twist my words as if I said that Pep turned him from a crap player into a world class player. I never actually said that.

What blueprint exactly? The false nine is supposed to have him position deeper so that he can draw the defenders out for the wing forwards to attack. Its not specifically designed to improve his goal tally. Valverde played him in a #10 playmaking role and Enrique used him largely as a wing forward in a fluid front three, he maintained his goalscoring all the same.
The result of it was more goals because instead of being marooned on the right (as he was under Rijkaard), he would play essentially as a centre forward (just not a static one: he dropped to connect with the midfield and this caused havoc with the opposition, as well as enabling Messi to avoid the physical battles that traditional number 9s usually dealt with).

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....he-false-nine-messi/1cugrw5m59fuyzaditfgta2ml

By the way, Valverde did employ Messi as a false 9, with some modifications.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....9-the-tactic-that-made-messi-what-he-is-today

So did Enrique, again with eventual tweaks to accommodate Suarez. They both made minor changes to what Pep initially did

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-lionel-messi-which-changed-20190201.amp.html

I feel this false nine thing has been blown way out of proportion. Its not like thats the only position he played under Pep or other managers. Pep's genius is in designing the tiki-taka system. Messi's insane goal tally is entirely his own genius if you ask me.
Well as I’ve said before, if you think Messi is going to score a goal a game irrespective of position, tactics, coaching, teammates and set-up, then I refer you to his international career.
 

thepolice123

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
11,339
Why not? Luis Ronaldo scored almost 200 goals by the age of 21. Pele scored 341 goals before turning 20. Messi is in that class, but playing on the wing obviously meant that he was not going to be that prolific

The goal tally of Ronaldo and Pele has got nothing to with this. This is a very pathetic attempt at comparison. C.Ronaldo scored 118 goals in 292 games for us. Does this mean we were using him wrong all the time?

Again, people are so oddly touchy about Messi that they twist my words as if I said that Pep turned him from a crap player into a world class player. I never actually said that.
Because that was actually what you were trying to say. You are being very dishonest about this.

The result of it was more goals because instead of being marooned on the right (as he was under Rijkaard), he would play essentially as a centre forward (just not a static one: he dropped to connect with the midfield and this caused havoc with the opposition, as well as enabling Messi to avoid the physical battles that traditional number 9s usually dealt with).

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....he-false-nine-messi/1cugrw5m59fuyzaditfgta2ml

By the way, Valverde did employ Messi as a false 9, with some modifications.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....9-the-tactic-that-made-messi-what-he-is-today

So did Enrique, again with eventual tweaks to accommodate Suarez. They both made minor changes to what Pep initially did

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-lionel-messi-which-changed-20190201.amp.html



Well as I’ve said before, if you think Messi is going to score a goal a game irrespective of position, tactics, coaching, teammates and set-up, then I refer you to his international career.
Again you are grasping at straws and finding specific matches. You clearly did not watch most of their matches during that period. Pep tinkered with his formations a lot, attributing Messi’s goalscoring as simply him being played in the false #9 is just simplistic thinking at best. His positioning on the pitch have always been the same right-sided area where he have the freedom to roam.

In 08/09 he largely played Messi on the right, the false #9 was only used in certain big matches. In 09/10 He bought Ibrahimovic who‘s a pure center forward and moved Messi. Fabregas mainly played the false #9 role in 11/12, that season Messi hit his peak goalscoring form.

Well as I’ve said before, if you think Messi is going to score a goal a game irrespective of position, tactics, coaching, teammates and set-up, then I refer you to his international career.
Nope I only said he’d still be the best player in the world.
 

NasirTimothy

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
257
Supports
Enyimba F.C.
The goal tally of Ronaldo and Pele has got nothing to with this. This is a very pathetic attempt at comparison. C.Ronaldo scored 118 goals in 292 games for us. Does this mean we were using him wrong all the time?
It’s not pathetic at all. Again, like the other guy, stop being emotional and deal with the facts. You claimed that is was impossible for Messi to have put up eye popping goal numbers as a teen. That is false.

I didn’t say Frank R was using Messi wrong, I said he was using him differently.

My argument was that Messi’s goalscoring change was a feather in Pep’s cap as a coach/manager (in determining who is the best around: after all, that is what the thread is about).

Fergie retired several years ago, but if he was was still coaching and part of this debate, I think Ronaldo’s development under him would absolutely be a testament to Fergie’s ability. Which is not to say that Ronaldo wouldn’t have been a great player without Fergie, but Fergie definitely helped him become what he is.


Because that was actually what you were trying to say. You are being very dishonest about this.
I know exactly what I was trying to say, so please don’t presume to tell me what I was trying to say. I watched Messi’s whole career and I’m well aware of how he was used differently by Frank and Pep. You seem less aware.

Again you are grasping at straws and finding specific matches. You clearly did not watch most of their matches during that period. Pep tinkered with his formations a lot, attributing Messi’s goalscoring as simply him being played in the false #9 is just simplistic thinking at best. His positioning on the pitch have always been the same right-sided area where he have the freedom to roam.
He went from 42 goals in 110 games under Rijkaard to 211 in 219 games under Pep. He was a world class player in both iterations. What do you attribute this goalscoring change to?

In 08/09 he largely played Messi on the right, the false #9 was only used in certain big matches. In 09/10 He bought Ibrahimovic who‘s a pure center forward and moved Messi. Fabregas mainly played the false #9 role in 11/12, that season Messi hit his peak goalscoring form.
Fabregas did not mainly play the false 9 role in 11/12. He did at times, but also played in different midfield roles and on the left of the front three

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/synd...ysis-of-cesc-fabregas-barcelona-role.amp.html

Re Ibra, part of the reason for his failure was Pep’s repositioning of Messi in a more central role. It was one of Pep’s biggest mistakes ever, first of all because he was in no way worth double Samuel Eto’o and secondly because they had a big financial loss when they sold him on.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/synd...be-one-of-barcelonas-biggest-regrets.amp.html


Nope I only said he’d still be the best player in the world.
You can be the best player in the world without scoring 700 goals. People seem to have forgotten that. Ronaldinho won the Ballon D’Or with 20 odd goals across all competitions. Maradona had 300 career goals. The discussion is not about whether Messi is a great player or not.
 

Piratesoup

Full Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Messages
6,246
Supports
Bayern München
Didn't know Messi and Ronaldo are managers/coaches.
 

thepolice123

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
11,339
It’s not pathetic at all. Again, like the other guy, stop being emotional and deal with the facts. You claimed that is was impossible for Messi to have put up eye popping goal numbers as a teen. That is false.

I didn’t say Frank R was using Messi wrong, I said he was using him differently.

My argument was that Messi’s goalscoring change was a feather in Pep’s cap as a coach/manager (in determining who is the best around: after all, that is what the thread is about).

Fergie retired several years ago, but if he was was still coaching and part of this debate, I think Ronaldo’s development under him would absolutely be a testament to Fergie’s ability. Which is not to say that Ronaldo wouldn’t have been a great player without Fergie, but Fergie definitely helped him become what he is.

Pep turned Messi into a goal machine because prior to that he scored only 42 goals for Rijkaard while barely even 20 years old. If he played the striker or false #9 or whatever position from the start he would be banging in goals all the way from his debut because Ronaldo and Pele did that, and therefore, by the same logic, he should too.

Following your logic, C.Ronaldo should be banging in 2x or 3x the amount he scored for us instead of "just" 118 and the managers at Real made Ronaldo into the goal machine instead of Fergie.

You realise how silly that sounds? I'm done here. :lol:
 

Suedesi

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
Messages
19,874
Location
New York City
Zinedine Zidane is criminally underrated it seems. Other than City last year when Varane had a major brainfart, he's never lost a CL tie, and more often than not he gets the tactics spot on. Last night was another example, where the team executed perfectly the game plan (long ball strategy, midfield setup where Casemiro the holding midfielder would be the most advanced when Real had the ball allowing Kroos to quarterback from the back) designed to nullify Liverpool's pressing and catch Trent Alexander with his pants around his ankles.
 

adexkola

Arsenal supporter
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
40,380
Location
The CL is a glorified FA Cup set to music
Supports
orderly disembarking on planes
Zinedine Zidane is criminally underrated it seems. Other than City last year when Varane had a major brainfart, he's never lost a CL tie, and more often than not he gets the tactics spot on. Last night was another example, where the team executed perfectly the game plan (long ball strategy, midfield setup where Casemiro the holding midfielder would be the most advanced when Real had the ball allowing Kroos to quarterback from the back) designed to nullify Liverpool's pressing and catch Trent Alexander with his pants around his ankles.
The tie was lost in the first game. That loss wasn't on Varane.
 

NasirTimothy

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
257
Supports
Enyimba F.C.
Pep turned Messi into a goal machine because prior to that he scored only 42 goals for Rijkaard while barely even 20 years old. If he played the striker or false #9 or whatever position from the start he would be banging in goals all the way from his debut because Ronaldo and Pele did that, and therefore, by the same logic, he should too.
If you play in the centre and as a 9, you are probably going to get more goals than if you play on the wing. That’s pretty standard.

Following your logic, C.Ronaldo should be banging in 2x or 3x the amount he scored for us instead of "just" 118 and the managers at Real made Ronaldo into the goal machine instead of Fergie.
Well no, because Ronaldo actually became prolific whilst at United, especially in his final 3 seasons.

You realise how silly that sounds? I'm done here. :lol:
It sounds silly probably because it’s your own concoction rather than an actual appraisal of my points

Cheerio. I’d advise trying to actually back up your claims in the future though, as I did.
 

giorno

Full Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
17,900
Supports
Real Madrid
Not really, at 1-1 Madrid was in the game. Varane gifted them not one but TWO goals.
They battered us home and away, mistakes or not we were going to lose anyways. They were just plain better than us
 

PepG

Full Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2016
Messages
728
Supports
Ajax
They battered us home and away, mistakes or not we were going to lose anyways. They were just plain better than us
Not true for the first game. As his former right hand Domenec Torrent said in an interview Pep gambled a lot with the setup for the game at Bernabeu. Real was actually the better side till that Jesus goal. After that City took the control of the game and won. At the Etihad stadium City was the better side the whole time and deserved to advance to the next stage.
 

giorno

Full Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
17,900
Supports
Real Madrid
Not true for the first game. As his former right hand Domenec Torrent said in an interview Pep gambled a lot with the setup for the game at Bernabeu. Real was actually the better side till that Jesus goal. After that City took the control of the game and won. At the Etihad stadium City was the better side the whole time and deserved to advance to the next stage.
No, we weren't. They were playing us off the park, our goal came completely against the run of play and then we had a good 10 minutes right after. Then Pep finally woke up, put on sterling and the game swung right back their way

Pep's gamble was working, more or less, it was just dumb not to start Sterling against Carvajal