Why are Pep and Klopp so dominant in the EPL?

Revan

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I've got to agree here. It's also why imo Pep and Klopp wouldn't stand a chance against league giants like Brendan Rodgers(106 points with Celtic)and Gary Barnett(105 points with Barry Town). And that's not even counting that those two would probably have taken a few points off Pep/Klopp records as well.

I know nostalgia is a sweet thing but Rodgers and Barnett are a different breed.
Indeed.

Additionally, that Milano team of the early nineties who won three Serie A in a row, did that with 56, 54 and 50 points. A classic mid table team managed by two average managers: Arrigo Sacchi and Fabio Capello. The 1994 version in particular was pathetic, scored only 36 goals in the league. No idea how they demolished 4-0 Barcelona in the final (who had scored 91 goals in the league).

I am starting to seriously consider that comparing different leagues, be it different in countries or time, might not be the right approach, but I am guess that is just the boomer on me.
 

roonster09

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Klopp can have all the dominance in the world if this means only 1 league title. Long may it continue.
Now anyone want to know what real dominance is? Being a grand total of 1 point away from winning seven Premier League titles in a row.
But he didn't know coaching :lol:

The ignorance in this thread is unreal and it's not even surprising.
 

Adisa

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The points totals Pep and Klopp are achieving are on average much higher than what Fergie achieved when he won all his EPLs. The question is why? Here are a few possibilities:

1) The EPL is weaker now
2) Pep and Klopp have better individuals in their first XIs than Fergie's sides did
3) Pep and Klopp have more squad depth that allows them to maintain a higher average standard
4) They are better coached/ play a style which is more consistent in steam rolling the weaker EPL sides

Are they any other options? Which factor makes the most difference? Or is my premise wrong about Pep and Klopp being that different?
I disagree with the first three completely.
I would say that in terms of coaching/tactical talent(not specifically as a manager), these two are better than Ferguson ever was. Or at least they are far better than their peers than Fergie ever was with his.
I also think the way the game is played now means the best teams are more consistent at what they do. Defending, attacking is all choreagraphed. The game is far more tactical than it ever was with less and less dependence on individual talent. In essence it has become more of a team sport of that makes sense.
All these factors mean the best teams are more consistent at what they do and no one is better at preparing a team to play a style than Pep or Klopp.
 

Zehner

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Indeed.

Additionally, that Milano team of the early nineties who won three Serie A in a row, did that with 56, 54 and 50 points. A classic mid table team managed by two average managers: Arrigo Sacchi and Fabio Capello. The 1994 version in particular was pathetic, scored only 36 goals in the league. No idea how they demolished 4-0 Barcelona in the final (who had scored 91 goals in the league).

I am starting to seriously consider that comparing different leagues, be it different in countries or time, might not be the right approach, but I am guess that is just the boomer on me.
Well, personally I think that the points total is a rather good indicator of how good a team was compared to its contemporaries but maybe that's just me. Matter of fact, even the best Wenger team was hardly as dominant as the standard Guardiola has established. And that was at a time when there weren't 13 EPL teams among the top 20 net spenders in Europe over the last 5 years.
 

Zehner

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But he didn't know coaching :lol:

The ignorance in this thread is unreal and it's not even surprising.
You're being illogical.
 

roonster09

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Indeed.

Additionally, that Milano team of the early nineties who won three Serie A in a row, did that with 56, 54 and 50 points. A classic mid table team managed by two average managers: Arrigo Sacchi and Fabio Capello. The 1994 version in particular was pathetic, scored only 36 goals in the league. No idea how they demolished 4-0 Barcelona in the final (who had scored 91 goals in the league).

I am starting to seriously consider that comparing different leagues, be it different in countries or time, might not be the right approach, but I am guess that is just the boomer on me.
Are you telling me Rodgers would have dominated Serie A like never before and managers like Sacchi and Capello wouldn't have won the league? Maybe it's true
 

WeePat

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Well it does because you can’t dominate a league if there’s literally another club doing better than you. Dominating the league means being better than everyone else and winning the title at the end of it, and one title in 6 years for Klopp certainly isn’t that. Bayern winning 10 in a row in the Bundesliga now that’s dominating.
I'm not sure about this. Liverpool are on course to manage above 90 points in 3 of the last 4 seasons. I don't think there can be just one dominant team per league. The fact that City are slightly more dominant doesn't really diminish Liverpool's dominance in this league. At least not in my eyes.
 

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I am still waiting for explanation how the feck one league title in 6 years is labelled as dominance.....
 

ShinjiNinja26

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I'm not sure about this. Liverpool are on course to manage above 90 points in 3 of the last 4 seasons. I don't think there can be just one dominant team per league. The fact that City are slightly more dominant doesn't really diminish Liverpool's dominance in this league. At least not in my eyes.
I’m sorry I can’t agree with this. One title in 6 years can’t be classed as “dominating”. To dominate a league means winning it, Liverpool have been very good the last few years but not good enough to dominate the league because there’s been another club even better than them.
 

Andycoleno9

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I'm not sure about this. Liverpool are on course to manage above 90 points in 3 of the last 4 seasons. I don't think there can be just one dominant team per league. The fact that City are slightly more dominant doesn't really diminish Liverpool's dominance in this league. At least not in my eyes.
Roy Keane's quote about PL medal comes on my mind...
 

WeePat

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I’m sorry I can’t agree with this. One title in 6 years can’t be classed as “dominating”. To dominated a league means winning it, Liverpool have been very good the last few years but not good enough to dominate the league because there’s been another club even better than them.
I hear you, I guess I just disagree. It's unfortunate for Liverpool that all these tight races are falling City's way who are managing to be just be just sliiightly more dominant. I mean they managed 97 points one season, which would have won the title in literally every other season in PL history except for that very season because City somehow managed 98 points. Yes it's only been 1 title but points totals tells it's own story and it's that City and Liverpool have been dominant together in the last 5 years, even if it hasn't translated into more title wins..
 
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united_99

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But he didn't know coaching :lol:

The ignorance in this thread is unreal and it's not even surprising.
It’s amusing. Just read another ridiculous post. Ferguson was around when Cruyff was. He even beat him in an European final when England weren’t even near the top of European football especially due to the 5 year ban.
He regularly competed against Ancelotti. The same Ancelotti who destroyed Pep 5-0 in CL. He competed against the same Jose who won La Liga with 100 points when Pep was still at Barca. He competed with the current Euro winner Mancini.
But still apparently he can’t be compared to some historical managers.
These posters think he was a DoF when he was managing, coaching and doing some DoF stuff beyond that. And did I miss Pep or Klopp not having any coaches and doing all on their own?
SAF delegated more in his latter years but still in his 30+ years career not any of his coaches has even remotely come close to his success without him. This just shows how much influence he had on the team and coaching. He was managing the coaching team as well after all.
But hey, if some people on the Caf say that despite 30+ years of evidence SAF wouldn’t be able to adapt beyond 2008 then this must be true, surely.
 
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Zehner

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I am still waiting for explanation how the feck one league title in 6 years is labelled as dominance.....
Klopp would have won the league three times if it wasn't for Pep. And he would probably have the record for most points in a single season.

Following your logic, Klopp would be a better manager if Guardiola would be coaching in the Serie A or La Liga. Can't you see the flaw in this line of argument?
 

The Corinthian

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Klopp would have won the league three times if it wasn't for Pep. And he would probably have the record for most points in a single season.

Following your logic, Klopp would be a better manager if Guardiola would be coaching in the Serie A or La Liga. Can't you see the flaw in this line of argument?
Sound logic there mate. What would your aunty be if she had balls, just out of interest?
 

ShinjiNinja26

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Klopp would have won the league three times if it wasn't for Pep. And he would probably have the record for most points in a single season.

Following your logic, Klopp would be a better manager if Guardiola would be coaching in the Serie A or La Liga. Can't you see the flaw in this line of argument?
That’s the whole point though he hasn’t has he? And why’s that? because there’s been a more dominant force in the league and that’s City.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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It hurts to say, but Klopp is probably a better manager than SAF in terms of coaching the side.

Pep is the greatest coach ever I think, but has lots of money.

SAF did it so long which is impressive and he is probably the greatest squad builder of all time, but for doing it in a single season he was not as good.

I think had SAF coached right now maybe he would have raised his game and beaten them and beaten the points scored record. Although it is pure speculation who would have won.
 

pillo o'culture

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Well, personally I think that the points total is a rather good indicator of how good a team was compared to its contemporaries but maybe that's just me. Matter of fact, even the best Wenger team was hardly as dominant as the standard Guardiola has established. And that was at a time when there weren't 13 EPL teams among the top 20 net spenders in Europe over the last 5 years.
Isn't it common knowledge that the bar tend to raise, not only in football.

Do you think Klopp could make his team press high like that in the 90's? Even back then Pep's Barca raised many eyebrows due to their maestro, Xavi and Iniesta playing every game 3times a week in a season which comparable to a marathon/wk.
 

Bosws87

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Chelsea have won more trophies in the time Klopps been around so they aren't even the second most successful team, currently.
 

Zehner

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That’s the whole point though he hasn’t has he? And why’s that? because there’s been a more dominant force in the league and that’s City.
Klopp is on his way to secure his third 90+ points finish in four years. Ferguson only had 3 of those in over 25 seasons. How is that not dominating? They are literally dominating all of their match ups bar City who they go toe to toe with but don't dominate the league?

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. I get that it's Liverpool but come on.
 

ShinjiNinja26

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Klopp is on his way to secure his third 90+ points finish in four years. Ferguson only had 3 of those in over 25 seasons. How is that not dominating? They are literally dominating all of their match ups bar City who they go toe to toe with but don't dominate the league?

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. I get that it's Liverpool but come on.
It’s pretty obviously why they aren’t dominating the league because there’s another 19 teams in the league so if they aren’t better than every single team in the league then they can’t be dominating said league. It’s pretty simple. I also don’t know why you keep bringing up points totals as well they really don’t mean as much as you think they do as there’s a whole load of other factors to take into account.
 

Revan

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Well, personally I think that the points total is a rather good indicator of how good a team was compared to its contemporaries but maybe that's just me. Matter of fact, even the best Wenger team was hardly as dominant as the standard Guardiola has established. And that was at a time when there weren't 13 EPL teams among the top 20 net spenders in Europe over the last 5 years.
Point total means nothing when you go two decades back in time. Same for the number of goals a team (or a player) scores in a season, when the football eras are completely different.

For example, that Argentinian guy never scored 25 goals in a season in Europe. His best (goalscoring) seasons were 23 and 21 goals. Bruno Fernandez scored 33 goals in a season, and 28 in another one.

That Argentinian guy was called Diego Armando Maradona. He was pretty decent at football, probably even better than Bruno Fernandez.

My point: comparing point total between a team playing now and one playing 20 years ago, is as stupid as saying that Bruno Fernandez is a better No. 10 than Diego Armando Maradona.
 

Zehner

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It’s pretty obviously why they aren’t dominating the league because there’s another 19 teams in the league so if they aren’t better than every single team in the league then they can’t be dominating said league. It’s pretty simple. I also don’t know why you keep bringing up points totals as well they really don’t mean as much as you think they do as there’s a whole load of other factors to take into account.
Which factors?
 

Zehner

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Point total means nothing when you go two decades back in time. Same for the number of goals a team (or a player) scores in a season, when the football eras are completely different.

For example, that Argentinian guy never scored 25 goals in a season in Europe. His best (goalscoring) seasons were 23 and 21 goals. Bruno Fernandez scored 33 goals in a season, and 28 in another one.

That Argentinian guy was called Diego Armando Maradona. He was pretty decent at football, probably even better than Bruno Fernandez.

My point: comparing point total between a team playing now and one playing 20 years ago, is as stupid as saying that Bruno Fernandez is a better No. 10 than Diego Armando Maradona.
That comparison is even dumber than you claim mine was.
 

ShinjiNinja26

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Which factors?
Standard of the teams in the league, quality of defending just to name a couple. Points totals mean nothing in the grand scheme of things because you don’t get anything extra for it. I’m sure Klopp would trade his 90+ points totals in a second for a title win with 70+. As Roy Keane said you don’t turn your PL winners medal over and it tells you how many points you got.
 

Zehner

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Standard of the teams in the league, quality of defending just to name a couple. Points totals mean nothing in the grand scheme of things because you don’t get anything extra for it. I’m sure Klopp would trade his 90+ points totals in a second for a title win with 70+. As Roy Keane said you don’t turn your PL winners medal over and it tells you how many points you got.
Standard of decending is reflected in the points total and the standard of the league is at it's best ever. The EPL has never been this far ahead of the other leagues.

And obviously he would make that trade. That doesn't mean that the 70 points season was better than the 90+ points one though.
 

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Klopp would have won the league three times if it wasn't for Pep. And he would probably have the record for most points in a single season.

Following your logic, Klopp would be a better manager if Guardiola would be coaching in the Serie A or La Liga. Can't you see the flaw in this line of argument?
IF argument is always funny to hear.....and to call it as a fact, it is even more amusing. And you dare to talk about flaws and logic?
 

Andycoleno9

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Bundesliga Defence League trying their hardest, but falling short, just like Klopp.
:lol: :lol: :lol:. Good one.
One time i had debate with Bayern fans here about Bayern's spending. I learned that they don't spend on players because they don't spend 100 mil on one player.
I swear; Liverpool fans are delusional but German fans are just behind them
 

ShinjiNinja26

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Standard of decending is reflected in the points total and the standard of the league is at it's best ever. The EPL has never been this far ahead of the other leagues.

And obviously he would make that trade. That doesn't mean that the 70 points season was better than the 90+ points one though.
Well clearly it does because in this example it wins you a title and the other doesn’t.
 

Bosws87

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Standard of decending is reflected in the points total and the standard of the league is at it's best ever. The EPL has never been this far ahead of the other leagues.

And obviously he would make that trade. That doesn't mean that the 70 points season was better than the 90+ points one though.
Maybe applied to the top 2/3 but the rest of the league no way.
 

Zehner

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IF argument is always funny to hear.....and to call it as a fact, it is even more amusing. And you dare to talk about flaws and logic?
Well clearly it does because in this example it wins you a title and the other doesn’t.
No offense but I think I'll leave it at that because now you guys are being intellectually dishonest.


Maybe applied to the top 2/3 but the rest of the league no way.
The EPL has comfortably the best top 6-8 world wide, too. Beyond that it is very hard to measure that due to the absense of international competitions but looking at the financial capabilities, those clubs are stronger than ever. The EPL has 13 clubs among the world wide top 20 net spenders over the last 5 years e. g.
 

Bosws87

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The EPL has comfortably the best top 6-8 world wide, too. Beyond that it is very hard to measure that due to the absense of international competitions but looking at the financial capabilities, those clubs are stronger than ever. The EPL has 13 clubs among the world wide top 20 net spenders over the last 5 years e. g.
After watching united home and away all season, i would disagree with that.
 

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A weak league? Sorry I'm not sure I heard that properly over what's being said in every other thread on this board.

Pep's CL record is indeed a weakness, but it also says something that three semi finals in a row are considered "absolutely tanked" for him and I think his insane consistency in his league campaigns stand above everyone else.

And I think the fact that Klopp has been keeping up as well as he did also reflects very positively on him.
The league is weak, anyone telling you otherwise is not versed in what went before. We're in a time where Chelsea, Manchester United (*the* two powerhouses from Jose's time until just after Pep arrived, in Chelsea's case) being a shadow of themselves, and even the strongest teams of the very recent past being pale imitations of themselves (Spurs and Leicester).

Klopp and Pep are running roughshod over a weak league. That is the fault of neither, but it is the reality, add the disparity in squads (both peaking on top of being the strongest sets of individuals) and the tallies are, and should, be a given. Incidentally, the whole of Europe is on the slide until the next round of bolstering, so this really should be the time these two help themselves to the spoils if they are *that* good.

You cannot omit Pep's infinite budget and the relativity of failure in regards to his resources. No obstacles, no restrictions, constantly buying and failing to the point it's expected by now. All this cooing about how dominant he is in the league, yet when met with teams of equal quality in the CL, he comes unstuck. Again, and again, and again. That's a bigger mark against him than any Ferguson has; Pep's only time winning the competition until now is when he had the best of the best of the best lined up for him - those are not good reflections when extrapolated. Pep destroys a weak league with the strongest squad, but then is second-guessing himself and constantly making errors when those resources are negated.

His coaching is aesthetically pleasing, but is it his squad or his genius determining the league? Ferguson matched off with countless opponents with equal teams or superior squads and more than held his own, how many times do we say that about Pep?

I like elements of what he does, but deification belies circumstances and has created a myth or at least a coach who only has the good extracted from his CV with his constant failures brushed under the rug like they're not happening in real time.

Klopp is doing better than Pep in relative terms, and despite that, he isn't overcoming him - he has to do what Ferguson did with Jose, when a seemingly unstoppable juggernaut with superior resources and squad came along and had to be overcome for him to continue winning.

I find discussion about the football either play to be an aside in this discussion; Pep struggled mightily with 'apex' Jose's peak side (Chelsea), and Klopp's football would last about half a season before total burnout in times gone by where teams did everything in their power to accrue points, rather than naively open themselves up to crushing defeats by superior offensive forces. Klopp constantly bemoans teams that don't 'play' as they're the ones that he tends to struggle more against, so good luck when you have a host of teams doing their damndest to not 'play'. I don't believe he tallies like he does now in those iterations of the league.

Anyway, context is vital in objective discussion about their feats vis-a-vis Ferguson's, without it, the conversation is a redundancy with binary lines of thought that have zero nuance or caveats/asterisks to them.
 

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After watching united home and away all season, i would disagree with that.
United might be bad relative to their ambitions and potential but they are still better than Union Berlin, Strasbourg, Real Sociedad and Roma. And Arsenal, Tottenham, Chelsea are easily ahead of their German, Italian, French and Spanish equivalents.
 

BerryBerryShrew

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Klopp would have won the league three times if it wasn't for Pep. And he would probably have the record for most points in a single season.

Following your logic, Klopp would be a better manager if Guardiola would be coaching in the Serie A or La Liga. Can't you see the flaw in this line of argument?
And SAF would have won the CL 4 times if it wasn't for Messi, Xavi and Iniesta. He might have won it a further 2 or 3 times if we weren't being hampered by the 3 foreigner maximum rule in England in the early and mid 90's. He might have won it a further time if Porto's offside goal had been correctly disallowed in 2004 and a further time had Nani not been incorrectly sent off against Real in 2013. So in "if only" land, Klopp has another couple of titles while SAF is a 9 time CL winner!
 

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I feel like I’m banging my head against a brick wall so it’s probably for the best.
Funny how that works! The discussion felt to me like you had been banging your head on a brick wall a few times as well ;)
 

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Stupid wikipedia and transermarkt and all other football pages. They know shit. When you click on honours you get how many trophies each manager won. No overall points stats and no IF stats.
 

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Funny how that works! The discussion felt to me like you had been banging your head on a brick wall a few times as well ;)
You should try it, it might have the opposite effect in your case and actually wake up the few brain cells you have in your head. It would require you to remove your head from Klopp’s arse first though. ;)