Why are some of you happy that we have lost tonight?

[Forevergiggs1]

Chelsea are CL winners under Tuchel and their improvement, especially tactically, has been enormous in a short span of time. He has less to prove than Ole. Surely you understand why people react differently to us going out of the EFL under Ole than say if it happens to Pep/SAF (not the case as Tuchel but same logic)?

The most annoying narrative in the defence of Ole is comparing him to what other managers do. SAF lost against x team in the cup must mean he's shit as well. Peps a serial bottler losing the CL final. Ole has a better record than Klopps first 100 games. It's impossible not to understand if Ole wins the PL or CL then he can afford to go out in the 3rd round of the league cup but as he hasn't the criticism is valid.

In the expectations for the season thread I'm not sure of the percentages but it wouldn't surprise me if 90% said they'd expect United to win a domestic cup. Now that we're eliminated from one it reduces our chances by 50% but still people say it doesn't matter, tinpot cup anyway and if we go out of the FA Cup the narrative will change to cups don't matter. Its the league position that counts. If we scrape top 4 it will be because Pool, City and Chelsea have a lot better squads than us. For some just having a club legend as manager gives him a lot more leeway which automatically reduces the expectations in actually winning stuff which is a pretty sad state of affairs to be honest.

 

[Siorac]

Were we feck

Near enough though. In the Premier League era, Fergie managed 21 seasons and won at least one trophy in 16 of them, not counting stuff like the Community Shield.

 

[The Brown Bull]

If we cared about it we wouldn’t have made 11 changes to the starting XI.

I’m far from Ole’s biggest fan here but I’m not bothered one bit about this. He will live or die by the PL/CL, and rightly so.

The selected 11 was good enough to beat West Ham at home. Clearly Ole wanted to win, he brought Mason, Bruno & Elanga on.
I found it quite depressing watching it seeing how far Martial has fallen.

 

[Revan]

Competitions that matter?

The League Cup has been a joke for years and even the FA Cup is going that way.

How it has been a joke? Granted, it is not a first tier trophy, but it is good enough for one of the greatest managers of all time to win it 4 times in a row. And before that, it was won by another great manager.

The managers who have won it in the last 5 years: Pep Guardiola x4, Jose Mourinho.

Surely, not a small trophy for them, especially not for Guardiola who in addition have won more trophies than the number of good games United has played under Ole. But yeah, beneath the mighty Ole.

 

[charlenefan]

Dunno why anyone would be happy about last night

No team starts the season with the focus of winning the UCL because as a competition it's the biggest lottery there is, you can be the best team in Europe and not win it and conversely you can be in relative terms an average side and strike gold but either way no team starts the season looking at the UCL as the best chance of a trophy

The league title does go to the best side in the league, we're not the best side in the league so for us remove that as the best shot at a trophy as well

That then leaves the League and FA Cups, typically the league cup does go to the best side in the league as they use it as a springboard to get them over the line in the last few months of the season but it doesn't always run to that script as by the nature of the competition the best sides do rotate up until the SF maybe even the final itself so it is a genuine chance of a trophy. As is the FA Cup.

As I see it now FA Cup becomes the priority for us and it doesn't even start till January. Yes we want to challenge for the league, we want to challenge for the UCL but we need to win something this season. We've brought in players this summer to win now, any previous thoughts of 'it doesn't matter if we don't win anything this year because the side we've got is one for the future' should go out the window when you bring in a 28 year old Varane and a 36 year old Ronaldo. In the latter's case he won't be around when Rashford, Sancho, Greenwood etc hit their peak, we need to be winning now

I don't blame Ole for the team selection last night, our B team should always be able to beat West Ham's B team. Those players let everyone down last night and for some of them I hope that was their last chance to do that

 

[Relevated]

Were we feck

I still remember how frustrating these games would be under Fergie because we had the same issues, like everybody is playing with each other for the first time.

 

[Relevated]

I remember Fergie playing kids in the league cup quite a lot. I also remember heading off to Brazil and pulling out of the Fa Cup. Do me a favour.

Playing kids
Not wanting to win


Wheres the link?

 

[Zlatattack]

Were we feck

im pretty sure we won stuff nearly every season, check out this list. Admittedly i didn't include his first few years where it wasn't true. However since the early 90's, there were only 4 years out of 21 where we didn't win anything.

1992-93 PL
1993-94 PL
1994-95
1995-96 PL
1996-97 PL
1997-98
1998-99 PL
1999-20 PL
2000-01 PL
2001-02 PL
2002-03 PL
2003-04 FA Cup
2004-05
2005-06 League Cup
2006-07 PL
2007-08 PL
2008-09 PL
2009-10 League Cup
2010-11 PL
2011-12
2012-13 PL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Ferguson

Nowadays we need to be taking any competition we are in seriously, as it's not as straightforward for us to get silverware. A lot of people talking aobut the league, we've not won it in 8 years. There are 4 teams capable of winning it.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Granted, it is not a first tier trophy, but it is good enough for one of the greatest managers of all time to win it 4 times in a row.

He's won it by default - almost - though: PL teams tend to treat it as a chance to feature second stringers (all the way to the final, you could say - depending on the draw). And City's second string has been significantly stronger than anyone else's for years.

It's not like Pep has treated it more "seriously" than any other PL manager since he took over at City.

And - we all know what the reaction would've been like if Ole had been suspected of actually prioritizing the League Cup. He'd have gotten dog's abuse for being small time, etc.

 

[Revan]

He's won it by default - almost - though: PL teams tend to treat it as a chance to feature second stringers (all the way to the final, you could say - depending on the draw). And City's second string has been significantly stronger than anyone else's for years.

It's not like Pep has treated it more "seriously" than any other PL manager since he took over at City.

And - we all know what the reaction would've been like if Ole had been suspected of actually prioritizing the League Cup. He'd have gotten dog's abuse for being small time, etc.

Our second string is also stronger than that of most teams, surely stronger than West Ham’s second string. It is probably worth 300-400m, so hardly a bad team.

We played badly thought and for most part didn’t come close to scoring goals. Which is a problem

Finally, despite that yesterday they played an even shorter team than us, City had more regulars than us, including De Bruyne. The main difference is that Pep likes to win trophies (and knows how to do so), while Ole doesn’t. Trophies are just an ego boost for a manager.

 

[Van Piorsing]

If someone's really happy after yesterday, then I got some bad news. Ole's staying.

Glazers, Woodward, SAF all behind the current manager.

 

[Desert Eagle]

The most annoying narrative in the defence of Ole is comparing him to what other managers do. SAF lost against x team in the cup must mean he's shit as well. Peps a serial bottler losing the CL final. Ole has a better record than Klopps first 100 games. It's impossible not to understand if Ole wins the PL or CL then he can afford to go out in the 3rd round of the league cup but as he hasn't the criticism is valid.

In the expectations for the season thread I'm not sure of the percentages but it wouldn't surprise me if 90% said they'd expect United to win a domestic cup. Now that we're eliminated from one it reduces our chances by 50% but still people say it doesn't matter, tinpot cup anyway and if we go out of the FA Cup the narrative will change to cups don't matter. Its the league position that counts. If we scrape top 4 it will be because Pool, City and Chelsea have a lot better squads than us. For some just having a club legend as manager gives him a lot more leeway which automatically reduces the expectations in actually winning stuff which is a pretty sad state of affairs to be honest.

Couldn't agree more. The comparisons to Fergie in particular are super annoying and it seems like nothing is off limits to make Ole look better not even denigrating the greatest manager of all time.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Some of you guys must be new fans because the United i grew up watching was never one that didn't wanna win a cup, regardless of how small.

If you want to play the experience card, know that in older fans’ lifetimes (70’s) United declined to even take part in it…League Cup was started with good intentions (boost attendance in English football particularly lower down the ladder) but it’s really sucked the prestige out of the FA cup and bloats an already bloated schedule. To my knowledge, no other league has it, France did and sacked it off, because it’s just extra games for money’s sake.

I’d love it if it was a milk cup/Olympic rules for PL teams but as it is, it holds almost no prestige or purpose.

 

[Rash Decision]

Our second string is also stronger than that of most teams, surely stronger than West Ham’s second string. It is probably worth 300-400m, so hardly a bad team.

I’ve certainly started to see an argument that we have a great first XI but poor quality in depth…

 

[11101]

How it has been a joke? Granted, it is not a first tier trophy, but it is good enough for one of the greatest managers of all time to win it 4 times in a row. And before that, it was won by another great manager.

The managers who have won it in the last 5 years: Pep Guardiola x4, Jose Mourinho.

Surely, not a small trophy for them, especially not for Guardiola who in addition have won more trophies than the number of good games United has played under Ole. But yeah, beneath the mighty Ole.

And the teams they have put out have been full of squad players and kids until they get to the last stages.

It just so happens City have 22 players who would all win the PL.

 

[TMDaines]

This.

I mentioned in another post how most will brag about United being the most successful club in English football with 66 trophies to Liverpool's 65. With today's mindset of snubbing noses up at the so called Mickey mouse cups then only our 20 league titles and 3 CL triumphs count

Yep. United aren’t back when they win the PL once or grab a CL. They are back when they are the dominant side winning the lion’s share or major trophies again. I’m not gonna be satisfied with a big trophy or two when it’s obvious we are still not top dogs. I want us to be where City now are, not Liverpool.

Winning the Premier League will feel great again, but might feel pretty hollow if someone else is cleaning up around us.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The main difference is that Pep likes to win trophies (and knows how to do so), while Ole doesn’t. Trophies are just an ego boost for a manager.

That's Poch - not Ole.

Seriously, though - Ole may not win a single trophy for us, but to doubt his ambition to do so is unfounded. We know who his main role model is - as a manager. Ole knows very well that he won't be regarded as anything but a half-decent transitional manager (at best) in United history if he doesn't win the league.

And - again - the reason why City have dominated the League Cup under Pep isn't that the latter loves winning trophies (more than anyone else) - there is an obvious reason for their dominance and it's called squad depth.

 

[TMDaines]

I remember Fergie playing kids in the league cup quite a lot. I also remember heading off to Brazil and pulling out of the Fa Cup. Do me a favour.

There’s still people around who think United and Ferguson wanted to withdraw from the FA Cup?

 

[gerdm07]

I'm not happy just not too bothered mainly because the EFL matches are shown on ESPN+ in the US and I refuse to pay any money to ESPN because of their stupid politics. Therefore, I was never going to be able to watch any of the matches. Yes, it's a bit selfish but the truth.

 

[Devil81]

We need a trophy this season, so based on that this narrows that down to three trophies to compete for from this point onwards.

Whatever people thinking of the League Cup it can be the key to the door of more success, losing last night was terrible.

Some of those players can contribute to the first eleven but they would always struggle as a collective.

 

[Nicoseth]

I'm not happy - of course, but I think there are some positives of going out of the tournament at this early stage. Fewer games in a packed schedule and less travel between important league games is a major boost for our squad over the course of a season. And really, yes - it's a trophy, but it's never a competition I get excited about. It was nice to see some squad players get a run out and being out of the competition reduces their prospects of more game time, but this season we have bigger fish to fry.

 

[Tiber]

I couldn't give a shit about the league cup. But it was a good chance to give squad players a game

 

[Acquire Me]

We need a trophy this season, so based on that this narrows that down to three trophies to compete for from this point onwards.

Whatever people thinking of the League Cup it can be the key to the door of more success, losing last night was terrible.

Some of those players can contribute to the first eleven but they would always struggle as a collective.

I could have been. It can be success in the league or the other cups as well.

 

[Blood Mage]

I think apathy has just set in for some. It's not looking likely that Ole will deliver us a trophy. He bottles it every damn time.

If we had owners with any genuine ambition he'd be out on his arse in the summer if we end the season trophyless again. But as usual, top 4 will be enough for him because the Glazers don't give a shit about anything but CL money.

 

[Coxy]

I think apathy has just set in for some. It's not looking likely that Ole will ever win a trophy in his tenure. He bottles it every damn time.

If we had owners with any genuine ambition he'd be out on his arse in the summer if end the season trophyless again. But as usual, top 4 will be enough for him because the Glazers don't give a shit about anything but CL money.

I wouldn't say he bottles it - he's just not good enough (in my opinion).

I suspect the reason people were saying they were 'happy' is simply finding an excuse that we didn't care about this trophy etc to save face.

We should be wanting to win everything we do.

 

[Blood Mage]

I wouldn't say he bottles it - he's just not good enough (in my opinion).

I suspect the reason people were saying they were 'happy' is simply finding an excuse that we didn't care about this trophy etc to save face.

We should be wanting to win everything we do.

Of course we should be competing on all fronts. We should be looking at our squad on paper and start getting excited about possibly winning the CL, because our squad really is that good. However, as you said our manager isn't good enough and I think it's starting to sink in for the fanbase as a whole. That combined with owners who have zero ambition to win trophies means that we're likely going to waste the best squad we've had since 2013. It's depressing really.

 

[Revan]

That's Poch - not Ole.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...jaer-trophies-mourinho-van-gaal-b1818512.html

Seriously, though - Ole may not win a single trophy for us, but to doubt his ambition to do so is unfounded. We know who his main role model is - as a manager. Ole knows very well that he won't be regarded as anything but a half-decent transitional manager (at best) in United history if he doesn't win the league.

It is not doubting his ambition. More like doubting his skills. We are a team dependent on individuals. Remove the heavy hitters (Ronaldo, Bruno, Pogba, Rashford) and we lose to West Ham's second team. It is still a team that costs far more than West Ham's starting XI, let alone what we faced yesterday, but we do not know yet how to play collectively. And that is something that has to do with the manager, not the depth.

And - again - the reason why City have dominated the League Cup under Pep isn't that the latter loves winning trophies (more than anyone else) - there is an obvious reason for their dominance and it's called squad depth.

What about ours? We have as much depth as City. Pretty much the entire team yesterday except Mata, Dalot and possibly Telles would start for half of the teams in top 10 of EPL.

 

[Revan]

Of course we should be competing on all fronts. We should be looking at our squad on paper and start getting excited about possibly winning the CL, because our squad really is that good. However, as you said our manager isn't good enough and I think it's starting to sink in for the fanbase as a whole. That combined with owners who have zero ambition to win trophies means that we're likely going to waste the best squad we've had since 2013. It's depressing really.

We just bought Ronaldo, Varane and arguably the third biggest talent in football (after Mbappe and Haaland).

 

[Polar]

I’m not happy, but I don’t care to much.
Both positive and negative sides.
- Less playing time for second choice players, always good to win
+ More comfortable schedule: Allow us to rest players and focus on training and more important things. Maybe some people also get down to earth and realise our squad depth isn’t that great

 

[Bilbo]

Our fixtures at the back end of October are as follows:

Sat 16th October - Leicester (a)
Weds 20th October - Atalanta (h)
Sun 24th October - Liverpool (h)
Tues 26th October - City (h)
Sat 30th October - Tottenham (a)
Tues 2nd November - Atalanta (a)

I've also included the game against Man City on Tues 26th (likely moved to 27th) if we had gone through last night. I realise that this is trying to turn a negative into a positive, but the City fixture is one that would have been important and a huge temptation to play a strong team in. If we'd have gone second string we'd likely have lost anyway. The above period looks altogether more challenging with a City fixture shovelled in, and its quite rare for this club to have had a full weeks preparation with a full squad at any point over the last couple of seasons.

Is it ever good to go out of a competition? No
Is the Carabao cup a distant fourth in our objectives? Yes
Are there potential advantages for our key priorities by going out early? Yes

 

[Blood Mage]

We just bought Ronaldo, Varane and arguably the third biggest talent in football (after Mbappe and Haaland).

Yes, to win back favour with the fans after the super league debacle and to cement us as a guaranteed top 4 side and keep the CL money rolling in. If Ole wins nothing and finishes 4th his job will be safe. Trophies are a bonus.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

And the teams they have put out have been full of squad players and kids until they get to the last stages.

It just so happens City have 22 players who would all win the PL.

They absolutely do not. The only position they're stacked in is on the left with Freakish, Sterling and Foden. None of their strikers would get into our first 11 never mind as backup. On the right they only have Mahrez as a natural position. If he doesn't play then they have B.Silva or Ferran who aren't any better than what we have.

Defence wise we are pretty evenly matched for first 11 and squad depth. DM will be argued that they're far superior but that could be debated with Rodri having his brainfarts and Fernandinho turnimg 78 next birthday.

They have KDB and Gundogan, we have Pogba and Bruno. The have Ederson with a drop off to Scott Carson. We have De Gea with a very capable Henderson.

If you had of said the biggest difference was the managers then ok i could agree with you but thinking that City have a far superior squad than ours makes it sound like a ready made excuse if they happen to finish above us.

 

[Revan]

Yes, to win back favour with the fans after the super league debacle and to cement us as a guaranteed top 4 side and keep the CL money rolling in. If Ole wins nothing and finishes 4th his job will be safe. Trophies are a bonus.

No, really no. If we think that Glazers care only about the money (which is true in my opinion) what you say does not make sense. Those players cost around 140m (without signing on fee and agent fee), then you add the players salaries, and you spend more on that than if Old Trafford is closed for another couple of years.

I do not think that trophies are bonus, mostly because the revenue is going to fall when the trophies do not happen. The current TeamViewer deal is not bigger than the previous one with Chevy for example. If we had win regularly, it would have been bigger (apparently no one else was interested to sponsor us). Soon, we will need to renegotiate the Adidas (or someone else), and that is going to be dependent on some degree based on trophies we win. And obviously, the stock value is dependent on revenue/profit value.

So Glazers care about trophies as much as we do. Just that they do it for completely different reasons.

 

[Dve]

Some of you are a genuine disgrace.

The only ones happy are probably the hardcore Ole outers, like yourself.

 

[esmufc07]

The only ones happy are probably the hardcore Ole outers, like yourself.

I am not hardcore Ole out.

 

[EireRed_GS]

If your 'happy' we lost your a bit of a tool really..

I always enjoyed having the league cup to get some players minutes who otherwise prob wouldnt get on. Its a shame as players such as mata / VdB / Telles / Dalot / Matic / Bailly / Elanga, prob arent going to get many minutes at all now other than running the clock down as an 80-something minute sub..

 

[Dve]

I am not hardcore Ole out.

If so, please accept my apologise.

Edit: You posts and threads suggest otherwise though, but hey.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Who's happy and why?

Are they happy because they see the cup as a hindrance and they want out, or because they see it as a stick to beat Ole with? Be a bit strange if it's the latter because he's not going to go due to losing this game.

 

[Longshanks]

The most annoying narrative in the defence of Ole is comparing him to what other managers do. SAF lost against x team in the cup must mean he's shit as well. Peps a serial bottler losing the CL final. Ole has a better record than Klopps first 100 games. It's impossible not to understand if Ole wins the PL or CL then he can afford to go out in the 3rd round of the league cup but as he hasn't the criticism is valid.

In the expectations for the season thread I'm not sure of the percentages but it wouldn't surprise me if 90% said they'd expect United to win a domestic cup. Now that we're eliminated from one it reduces our chances by 50% but still people say it doesn't matter, tinpot cup anyway and if we go out of the FA Cup the narrative will change to cups don't matter. Its the league position that counts. If we scrape top 4 it will be because Pool, City and Chelsea have a lot better squads than us. For some just having a club legend as manager gives him a lot more leeway which automatically reduces the expectations in actually winning stuff which is a pretty sad state of affairs to be honest.

The cup competitions are a lottery though, so haven't some sort of expectation that we have to win one is nonsensical. Sure getting knocked out of the league Cup last night is dissapointing but it happens we had a tricky draw, played a second string should of won the game on balance missed chances just one of those nights against a notoriously stubborn side.

Managers get judged on league position its a far better guide of where we are at. So far so good in that regards. If come march/April we are way out of contention then questions will and should be asked. But going all in on ole over the second string getting knocked out of the league cup? Not sure about that Especially after his record in the cups is actually quite decent.

 

[Foxbatt]

I don't think anyone is happy that we lost. Lots of us, me including are not that much upset because we lost with that team. They all are supposed to be professional football players. With Moss as the referee we were never going to get any breaks. I am more upset with the players for not trying hard enough.
There was enough quality on the pitch to beat that West Ham team. Ole has to give his squad game time and it's better he does it in the league cup than in any other competition.