Why are the Glazers/Woody running the club so badly?

GBBQ

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Not true.

The club works if you recruit successive managers with similar styles that require similar types of players. A clear strategy.

It's not rocket science that lurching from possesion based LVG to anti-possesion, counter attack Jose requires totally different squads and coaching.
Nonsense, why can't the manager adapt to the players at his disposal? Surely Mourinho sold himself in his interview as being able to improve this team's fortunes with some key acquisitions (and in fairness he did in the first season with two trophies) regardless of the previous manager's philosophy. Liverpool and City getting things right now isn't down to being a natural progression from previous managers its because they are great managers who have a clear plan and got the required backing / bought accordingly.

Things can change in a couple of seasons with the right set up.
 

Sky1981

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You have some good points here, but what solution would you advise? I'd say stop the mercenary signings and focus on the best players in England/PL.
Give managet time..bet on one and stick with it.

We go from moyes, lvg, jose, and now ole. Each has their own style. We want a strong manager to clearout the deadwood but baying for their head the minute performances drop. Clearing this deadwood wont be easy, those deadwoods will resist and downtool to force the manager out so they can get another clean slate. So if you want to succeed, persist, just like liverpool persist with klopp, tottenham with poch.

Even if we dont win the league we will have abit of stability and accountability from players.

Our fans is the worst when it comes to abusing manager they dont like. And it seeps into the players, they think the fans dont like the manager. The know they'll outlast the manager. We never really give a full support to our manager. Not moyes, not lvg, not jose, and now not ole.

Forget about the matchgoers, they always support the team to their credit, but fans on forums like redcafe arent shy to call our manager cnuts, those players has agents that reads and gauge the fans opinion on them, this made our manager weak and the likes of rio, giggs, martial, pogba thinks they're bigger than the manager
 

BlueHaze

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It's only bad when you're losing. When your team isn't doing well everything is to blame, the first that got the stick is the manager, 4 managers after and you're still shit the blame is on ed and the board. I think it's theuraphetic to have the spacegoat ready, it's never our fault or the players fault or the manager fault, it's the big toxic jose fault, it's ed fault, it's the glazer's fault, imagine if we have a better owner, better CEO, better DOF.

Our problem took time and patience to fix, complaining that your manager isn't right every 1 year or 6 mths and hitting the reset button is why we're in this mess in the first place.
It's not. It's because we have utterly inept people in charge of the most important roles at the club. There has been absolutely no plan since SAF left. This is all just normal because when you have a bankman trying to mimic a DOF of course there will be heaps of inept decisions made. If your pipes are leaking you don't call a painter to fix it do you?
 

Sky1981

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It's not. It's because we have utterly inept people in charge of the most important roles at the club. There has been absolutely no plan since SAF left. This is all just normal because when you have a bankman trying to mimic a DOF of course there will be heaps of inept decisions made. If your pipes are leaking you don't call a painter to fix it do you?
David gill is a bankman. I doubt there's a single football man in liverpool boardroom apart from kenny dalglish
 

mark_a

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Because they've never needed to run it well. You take over a club with a top manager doing well, with a good structure and it's probably the right thing to do nothing, maybe just maximising commercial activities etc..

So they took ownership of something they'd not had anything to do with getting where it was, so they hold on until the momentum runs out. At this point the cracks start showing through because proper decisions, planning & management have been needed.

But as everyone can see, what happened next was one simple bad decision (Moyes) and everything else is a collapsing house of cards after that, with decisions made under pressure or on the backfoot. With Ole's appointment as caretaker manager, they accidentally made the right decision. Only to then follow it with the wrong decision of appointing him too hastily. There's nothing United (i.e. The club) have done since about 2010/11 that implies this is going to change.

We are where we should be, in terms of planning and vision. You could argue we've over-achieved and should be battling it out to get into the top 6, never mind the top 4. Especially when you see how teams like Wolves are working successfully with what they've got. Granted, it's if Wolves (for example) maintain that next season, it's unlikely they will the season after that. The top 6 will likely come in for players etc.

Focus on the players bad attitudes and/or lack of work-rate is missing the point. It's a symptom not a cause. The club isn't working properly. Some players are overpaid full stop. When you factor in what they're delivering, it's even more ridiculous. Something is amiss and I suspect it's direction and strategy. This translates to appointing the right people to the right posts (coaches etc..) and obviously high profile roles like the manager! Player recruitment would come out of the clubs positive direction and staff/manager appointments, and most importantly someone in Woody's position who knows enough to be able to stand up to managers when needed or trust them. Or recruit them! Seems to me like he's pretty hot on business, but weak elsewhere. Like he's backed/resisted things from managers in all the wrong places, which is going to lead you to not get the people you want/need and then later panic and splurge on people who aren't right. We can think of current team examples of that.

The comeback against PSG (and other performances leading up) show that it's not total doom, but the fact that we could do that only highlights that our default is to under-perform. City, for example, can handle individuals who perhaps have the odd 4 or 5 / 10 performances, maybe even a couple of players, but the team tactics and spirit aren't sunk. A strong plan with a few world class individuals - it's not rocket science! City and Liverpool have had continuity now for a good few seasons - if they'd changed direction several times during that time, neither would be at the top of the league now.

So, what? When the football side of things seemed to look after itself, it did. Everything after that was free fall. Another thing to throw in might be, who wants some of these positions at United? Maybe nobody wants to lead? We're lacking leaders on the field, so why not within the club? But you start at the top, and the Glazers need to own this decline, Woody needs to own it as well. We've changed pretty much everything aside from those 2 things ...
 

UpWithRivers

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They havnt been given the remit to be a great team. They have been told to make money. They have achieved their goals. Yes both go hand in hand to a degree but its like anything - cars, food etc. Small companies set out to make the best possible product to compete with the big boys. Which kills their margin but they take a loss as they are building a client base. Once they have that client base they make the most profitable product not the best product. Utd are the same. We have gone from being football focused. Producing the best team and winning trophies to focusing on profit. If we can come 4-7 and make more money than the cost of coming first then that is what we will do.
 

Sarni

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Because they hardly care about results and frankly have no reason to care currently as we are making money without being successful.

Long term this is not sustainable in football unless we go down the European Super League route. If we aren’t a factor in Europe for 20+ years people won’t care about our past success and our fan base will diminish every year.
 

Minimalist

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Possibly been mentioned already but the thing I always come back to is the wealth the club has (as a negative).

It’s also a huge reason I don’t despair for the club (yet). The money and resources we have give us time to put things right.

By the same token, I think the riches we have also gives those working above an unjustified air of confidence that if they just keep trying different things it’ll eventually work out on the pitch. They clearly don’t mind spending money when they want to - we’ve spent a fortune but there’s obviously little strategy behind it.
 

RE1999

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Why are we expecting venture capitalists to care about results on the pitch?

United is a listed company with a football team. Its priority is shareholder return. Even when the share price tanks, they can make money.

The Glazers have very different interests to the Sheikh, Roman, even Moshiri etc and (what's worse) is that the Glazers are probably very happy with things at the moment and the job Red Ed is doing.

Expect a few big name bolt ons this summer to spark some commercial deals, followed by 6th in the league next season and (yet another) new manager.
 

AshRK

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Arrogance. They took this job for granted, especially Woodward. He should have appointed a football director and allowed them to take footballing decisions but he does not want to lose his power and authority. I can pretty much guarantee he must be an arrogant man in real life too, the person who thinks he knows everything and rest are fools.

Glazers don't care much as long as they are making sufficient profit so I don't think bringing them into every argument would solve much.
 

thejtrain

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Is it the rumoured prioritising of the commercial value of a player in transfers over footballing ability in some cases? (IIRC this was one of the reasons Woody wouldn't spend enough to buy Alderwiereld) If so this may indicate a short-term over long term profit maximising strategy.
Nah, we wouldn't be signing the likes of Rojo, Bailly, and Darmian if so. They are just incompetent at football side of things.
 

André Dominguez

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If you don't assemble a solid Football Department , you are basically a sinking ship in the middle of the competitive ocean.

The importance of a Football Department has been proved to be vital for teams from bottom to top. But it's not just assembling a department: it must be about long term goals so that, it doesn't matter who's the manager or the transfers, there's a master plan to follow and adjust.
 

pcaming

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It's just incompetence and lack of footballing knowledge They've shown a desire to spend lots of money and create a structure. The problem is that they don't know how to go about either way properly. As for Directors, it's very typical for families to put a lot of their members on the board, the reality is probably only 1 or 2 are active decision makers alongside Ed.
 

Mr Smith

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In my opinion a big part is Woodward's arrogance. He seems blind to his own role in the situation and too stubborn to hire a sporting director and take a back seat on footballing decisions.
 

Classical Mechanic

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It started with the deification of Ferguson and a commitment to following his succession plan. That resulted in the appointment of his man Moyes on a 6 year contract and with complete autonomy on the running of the club at team level, including transfers.

It seemed to have escaped the boards notice that such a plan is completely unworkable in the modern era due to the astronomical cost of players. If a manager loses the dressing room, you get rid of him, not the players, because of the economics involved. We have failed to appoint a DOF to shape an footballing ethos for the club based on attacking football and bring in coaches to help achieve that vision.

We have continued to persist in allowing managers far too much power over recruitment. LVG was allowed to purge and bring in dross like Rojo simply because he was left footed. Mourinho was allowed to bring in a load of 6ft 2 plus cloggers before having his third season meltdown.

Now it seems we are going to let Ole pursue his 'British is best' philosophy.

What can go wrong.
 

MAGARed

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The Glazers and Woodward aren't idiots or incompetent, the exact opposite I would imagine.
What reason do we have to believe the Glazers are competent? They inherited every cent of their fortune.
 

Pughnichi

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The Glazer family bought the most successful club in England that was run from top to bottom by the most successful manager in English league history. They were venture capitalists with no real knowledge or history or interest in ‘soccer’.

Since the takeover they’ve set about turning United into a cash cow, maximising revenues and (no matter what anyone says) minimising their investment. Investment in playing staff has only followed the natural growth in revenues from TV, sponsorship and other commercial sources.

Real investment in the football club stopped to any significant degree in 2005. All we are seeing now is the chickens coming home to roost. The natural end result of treating one of the worlds greatest sporting institutions as an ATM for its owners.
Totally agree. The only summer they showed true commitment for me was 07/08 when we bought Nani, Anderson, Tevez and Hargreaves. Youthful, talented, hungry players that helped to balance the existing squad.

Between 08-13 we signed tosic, obertan, diouf, Valencia, Bebe, Smalling, chicarito, Young, henriquez, Powell and buttner.

They just didn’t invest in real talent during this period and it is still hurting us today

During that same period DeGea, Van persie can be seen as good buys

And you can forgive the signings of Jones, Smalling, Zaha and kagawa...none of which turned out how we hoped.

In more recent times we seem to have panicked and chased the luxury commercial players. It really is a mess
 

House Mkhitaryan

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They have absolutely no clue what they are doing and lack any clear vision. No short-term plan, no coherent long-term plan... just one impulsive, bad decision after another. Making money in finance is relatively easy if you have capital but running a complex organization that is directly competing with other complex organizations is far more difficult, especially when those running the competing organizations are far more competent.

The only thing this ownership/management team has done "successfully" is pimp out the Manchester United brand to the highest bidder by signing sponsorship deals for partners to become the "Official Isotonic Drinks Partner of Manchester United in Indonesia" and other nonsense. Of course, literally anyone with half a brain could sign deals like this. They have failed at virtually every other aspect of business, and they have failed spectacularly with everything football related (contracts, transfers, managers, etc.).
 

Jezpeza

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It started with the deification of Ferguson and a commitment to following his succession plan. That resulted in the appointment of his man Moyes on a 6 year contract and with complete autonomy on the running of the club at team level, including transfers.

It seemed to have escaped the boards notice that such a plan is completely unworkable in the modern era due to the astronomical cost of players. If a manager loses the dressing room, you get rid of him, not the players, because of the economics involved. We have failed to appoint a DOF to shape an footballing ethos for the club based on attacking football and bring in coaches to help achieve that vision.

We have continued to persist in allowing managers far too much power over recruitment. LVG was allowed to purge and bring in dross like Rojo simply because he was left footed. Mourinho was allowed to bring in a load of 6ft 2 plus cloggers before having his third season meltdown.

Now it seems we are going to let Ole pursue his 'British is best' philosophy.

What can go wrong.
A good post. Poor Recruitment strategy runs like a thread through our last 6 years and despite many funs persisting how good smalling and Jones and Young are, we by and large field a tub of shit most weeks which is why we have finished a deserved 6th place. We havent been robbed.

Succession of managers have signed dross. If we take the money we spent on Fellaini, Mata and Schneiderlin then we could have brought one outstanding midfielder for 100m.

Instead we've spent it on three trash players and they've been sold on for nothing. Rinse and repeat throughout the team, at CB with Bailly and Rojo, the wings with sanchez di maria and depay.

May as well start spending big on young talent and build for the next decade. But wont work without a DoF.

Just seems each manager has their own say -
Moyes didnt know what to do with money having lived years on a two balloons and a goldfish budget.
Van Gaal was obsessed with signing central midfielders despite wanting to play with wing backs and having none.

Mourinho wanted a team of 6 footers plus, and a 40m wheelie bin to stick in front of the back four.
 

Fluctuation0161

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Nonsense, why can't the manager adapt to the players at his disposal?
Disagree. Because the squad was already at breaking point needing serious improvements across the starting 11. The manager can only 'adapt' so much. The quality is not there. This stems from chronic underinvestment 2005-2013 and poor investment / no strategy after 2013, after Fergie had helped the owners clear a big proportion of the dangerous debt.

We had Fergies (B team) back line still starting for us in some games this season FFS.

Liverpool and City getting things right now isn't down to being a natural progression from previous managers its because they are great managers who have a clear plan and got the required backing / bought accordingly.
City have unlimited funds. Liverpool demonstrated improvement way before Klopp. Remember Slippy G in 2014?

Things can change in a couple of seasons with the right set up.
We do not have the right setup and the people in charge have failed to implement 'the right setup' over 6 seasons. You think they will get it right now? Why?
 

Buster15

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Why are they running our club so badly?
Easy. From their perspective they only look at one thing.
And that is the bottom line.
Manchester United to them is simply a business investment with one purpose in mind.
Maximising a return on investment.
The fact that it is a football club is of little consequence. I very much doubt that they even like football (soccer to them).
When that bottom line fails to live up to expectations they are then able to sell it on for a significant profit.
These are not football people. They are investors and from our perspective terrible investors.
Moreover, they have absolutely no idea how to turn this club around.
They have absolutely no interest in its long term future.
It's all about the bottom line stupid.
 

buchansleftleg

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From the perspectives of the owners the club is ticking over nicely....

Profits are up, performance bonuses will not be too high, matchday revenue is good, sponsorships are ticking along well and we will no doubt get some other record breaking deal for the next thing that comes available.

The only negative as far as the club is concerned is the big payouts to managers that have left...so no surprises they saw Ole as a cheap solution to that problem.

Signing fees have gone a bit mental so that is why we have clearly tried to target players at the end or near the end of their contracts like sanchez, or Godin.

Like all average financial managers the club is looking on a short term schedule, delivering nice financial growth that the business markets lap up and think is great.

The fans are the only ones noticing they are running down the fabric of the club through neglect of the stadium...neglect of the investment in the team..neglect of their responsibilities to put footballing people in charge of football matters.

Fan's might protest against the owners but these protests are easily deflected onto players or the manager with a few well placed leaks to the media.

Fans have to hit them where it hurts. Go to the games by all means but stop buying the merchandise...stop buying programmes or buying the food and beverages in the stadium. A 4 week boycott of this would have the Glazers in panic mode and would prompt real change or a change in ownership.
 

Beachryan

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Nothing will change until our profit numbers start to go down. As numerous intelligent posters have said, shareholder value is the success metric for MUFC. Further, the benefit of even being in the CL is only 30m or so : so why buy a 50m player to get there?

If we, as a fanbase, were smarter, we'd start to threaten that. As long as we keep ensuring revenue is under no threat, there is no incentive to change anything from the board's perspective.

If everyone stopped going to a match for a week, if we boycotted, say, Jersey sales, if everyone cancelled their MUTV account - these are how we make our feelings known.
 

ti vu

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To be fair, even though the owners are incompetent, the fortunate appointment of a good manager (not just coach because we don't have the structure to support him, but someone who can actually run the club and lead it in the right direction) followed by a few good signings to shape the nucleus of the team can make a world of difference.

e.g. Levy was roundly lambasted by a lot of Tottenham supporters for some of the decisions he made, but the appointment of Pochettino (who was reportedly not his first choice) proved to be a masterstroke, and now Daniel can do no wrong according to some. I like this video too because the resounding winner entered a very poor period while the loser entered the brightest phase of the post-modern era in subsequent years...


Things can change very quickly in football (and sports in general), so we shouldn't lose hope, even with poobrains in the ownership position. :)
One thing you failed to realize in case you think it's just mere football cycle is that Real Madrid election system means that their Presidents and the board of directors have to take responsibilities for the consequences. In this case, it took Florentino Perez to return and reboot Galaticos project for Madrid to be re established as a super power in football world. It took time of course, but the change is ruthless.

Baldini who was DOF when Pochetino was hired. If your info were correct regarding Levy's uncertainty of Poch, then Baldini as DOF had a say for his appointment. Baldini was often forgotten for the signings of Ali Eriksen Ben Davies Dier for instances. DOF could have let go of players like Kane too. He was without failures of course. The point is without such role, it could have gotten worse, not recruiting Pochettino and those players as you put with Levy not pushing for Poch. After thing gets stabilized, of course Levy as a face of off the pitch staffs looks good despite questionable decisions. This is normal as you can say similar re Glazers reign when SAF was still in charge of the club. Same with Perez at times. Or anyone. So again wat is the difference.

Luck should never be disregarded, sure. However one has to to actively work to create their own luck. The way we are doing is shite throwing onto the wall. No real plan, but hope to get right managers, then hope the players that were bought were decent. The big decision maker here is to face no consequences whatsoever. The old English managers model enables such earth and heaven difference cycle which both of us and Liverpool (and other successful English teams in faced in the past), while in big picture, once you get the structure right, a top level team may lingering to CL qualification level during transition, yet still prevent yo yo into mid table, EL region every other year like both us and Liverpool in so called rebuild years.
 
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littlepeasoup

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Just like Jose, Ed can't win.

Extend contract = giving in
Not Extending contract = letting good players leave to save penny
Hiring top manager = Instant success
Hiring Ex Legend = Cheap option yes men
Buying youngster = United is being leeched by the glazer
Buying Top star = We have no vision
Employing a patience phylosophy builder = boring, we want action
Employing a strict disciplinarian = Toxic, the players needs arms around their shoulder, how dare he
Employing a United Legend = He's not experienced enough
Finding sponsor = Ed is too money minded, he's not a football man
Listening to a fooball man (SAF) = What the feck is he thinking hiring Moyes

For me the sign of absurd finger pointing is when he does the opposite and still be blamed for both.
Therein lies the problem though, surely. He's pure scattershot with his decisions, and he doesn't seem to get any of them right, which basically sums up the club in the last 6 years.
 

JPRouve

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Nothing will change until our profit numbers start to go down. As numerous intelligent posters have said, shareholder value is the success metric for MUFC. Further, the benefit of even being in the CL is only 30m or so : so why buy a 50m player to get there?

If we, as a fanbase, were smarter, we'd start to threaten that. As long as we keep ensuring revenue is under no threat, there is no incentive to change anything from the board's perspective.

If everyone stopped going to a match for a week, if we boycotted, say, Jersey sales, if everyone cancelled their MUTV account - these are how we make our feelings known.
On the CL, it's worth a lot more than 30m, because it's directly linked to our current sponsorship(a third of the Adidas deal), also what the UEFA call market pool is represent a lot of money outside of actual prize money, that's without counting the gate and the fact that CL football represents visibility which is exactly what the club sells to sponsors.
On the 50m for a player, United is one of the club that has spent the most money in the last 6 years between transfer fees and wages, so it's not even worth asking that type of questions.
 

jontheblue

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They got carried by Sir Alex for years and thought that their bullshit would always worked.

Clueless bunch of leechs
They certainly aren't clueless. They have a set of goals, they are achieving those goals, which makes them both happy and rich. They are ruthless and have thick skins, which means they don't care that they upset fans. But they know that's what they are doing. All the while, the value of their investment is higher now than it was when they first bought. That is literally the opposite of clueless
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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They got carried by Sir Alex for years and thought that their bullshit would always worked.

Clueless bunch of leechs
You could argue that they are empowering the wrong man, otherwise I don't see how they have withheld money for transfers. Why are they backing Woodward? For all we know he was the man recommended by David Gill when he decided to step away and many in the board of directors probably still have faith in him. It would be much easier if we know who to fault for this malaise but going by what we know and the insane amount of money invested both in transfers, wages for both players and managers, its certainly not the owners.
 

P-Nut

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I think it just comes down to not really knowing how long they wish to stick around for.

If they were in it for the long run, then heavy investment to get us back to the top would be the most viable route. It increases the fan base and in the long run those fans turn into more cash.

However, at the moment we are still turning a profit, so if they see it as another 10 years and then go; there really is no need to make major investments. The generation that grew up with Fergie will see them over that 10 year mark and the club will still be sign as massively profitable. They can then limit investment and still cash in big.

They will know when profits start to take a drop, and that's when you will see them wanting to sell. There are rumours of it already due to our stagnation, and another bad season or 2 could see us hit that limit. I'm sure they'll be pulling out the stops to make sure we don't go 2 years out of the CL, however if we do make it next year, I hope it's not a papering over the cracks type job, and we can actually see some real progress, otherwise it's just back to square one.
 

Sky1981

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Therein lies the problem though, surely. He's pure scattershot with his decisions, and he doesn't seem to get any of them right, which basically sums up the club in the last 6 years.
No dof always gets it right. It's liverpool turn these last few years. Previously they're in the wilderness under the same owner. Chelsea has its up and down. The best club in the world barcelona has their purple decades until the emergence of messi and pep. City is a special case eith their spending power.

Yes. Ed isnt perfect and he's far from good. I just dont think firing him and hire another name as a fix to our problem. Unless the next ceo has a time machine he'll have his fair share of hit and miss.
 

jontheblue

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Unless the finances at this club plummets, then they will continue owning this club.
Question is: How bad do the finances need to get for the Glazers are considering cashing in?
Or how much money do they need to be offered - they don't just have an income stream, they also have an asset. Everyone has a price

What would fans prefer if the choice is mediocrity under glazer ownership or success under saudi ownership ? I appreciate fans don't get a say in it, but do fans become more accepting of the latter the longer this continues ?
 

Tincanalley

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You really are a huge fan of his aren’t you? Maybe you should go support Ed. Why not start a forum called Ed Cafe and quit trying to argue the unarguable with Man Utd fans.
Get in! :lol:
 

elmo

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They certainly aren't clueless. They have a set of goals, they are achieving those goals, which makes them both happy and rich. They are ruthless and have thick skins, which means they don't care that they upset fans. But they know that's what they are doing. All the while, the value of their investment is higher now than it was when they first bought. That is literally the opposite of clueless
They're literally killing the goose that lays the golden egg. How the feck is that them having a fecking clue on how the club should be run?

They'v been riding their luck with how useless Chelsea and Arsenal has been and that's the only thing that's kept the sponsors 'happy'. The next round of commercial deals will be far lower than what Woodward has gotten previously due to the shitty results, but yeah they know what they doing :houllier: