Why are United fans so oblivious to importance of good managers?

Amir

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I think we've had plenty of opportunities to get rid of players like Bailly but the club don't want to sell and I think we could all name 10 other players in a similar situation so I don't think it's any sort of business model from the club. Basically it boils down to us being useless in selling on players.
I agree with most of what you've written and I feel that our real complaint about the Glazers shouldn't be about money we've spent or some model we have - but about the fact they've been unable to put in place the people who would select the right manager. Whatever we've tried has been not been successful, or successful enough, in four attempts.

However, while we obviously struggle to sell players - I think we have a bigger issue: Some weird fear of letting players go for free. We keep giving new contracts to fringe players. Maybe it's an attempt to keep some value attached to them to we can cash him on them, but if we fail to sell them we are just stuck with them.
 

glazed

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Exactly. Every single one of them should not have got the job at the time they were appointed.
And yet we act like this is just a random coincidence. It's not. And Ole's replacement will be equally unable to do anything to win silverware. Because the problem is not the manager. The manager is a symptom.

Quite simply the Glazers are not willing to outspend City or, more importantly, restructure the club to put football first. They have no intention of even trying. Fourth is fine. Wenger did this every season for years and it worked very well.

Had City not become an oil state's PR bauble, we probably would have been champions last season and also under Jose. The world has changed from SAF's day and winning the league may be beyond us. Just dreaming that a superstar manager is going to waltz in and make it all work seems a bit simplistic. If that were the case it would have been done long ago.

And yes I know it happened at Liverpool. But Liverpool is run as a sports club, not as a cash machine. That's why Klopp went there and not here.
 

Sviken

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Quite simply the Glazers are not willing to outspend City or, more importantly, restructure the club to put football first. They have no intention of even trying. Fourth is fine. Wenger did this every season for years and it worked very well.
So well that they're now permament mid-tablers fighting for an Europa League spot. I mean... simply genius stuff.
 

Ish

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Our fans are arguably patient to a fault. fecking Moyes was having his name sung at OT weeks before he was sacked.
Yeah, I don’t understand how anyone says we’re not patient - especially not when compared to the other big clubs out there
 

Amir

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Quite simply the Glazers are not willing to outspend City or, more importantly, restructure the club to put football first. They have no intention of even trying. Fourth is fine.
We just finished second, and they went and signed three players...

I don't expect United to outspend City, a club that doesn't need to exist on its own income. And we've spent quite a bit since 2014. Where we regularly failed is appointing managers. The last four all had clear failings.
 

kthanksbye

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The problem is that even our board seems to be oblivious to the importance of a good manager, and competent coaching staff in general. We got LvG 10 years late, Jose 4 years late, football evolves, Jose was peaking when counterattacking football was the shit. Porto Chelsea and Inter used him well in that period. That style doesn't work anymore, Klopp with his style of football won the PL and the CL. Our board is incapable of identifying what system we have to implement and then sign a manager who can implement it the best. Then when in 3-5 years there's a new system getting results, we need the board to overlook that transition of a new manager and changes he needs to make to the squad.
 

yipthatman

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Most fans, including myself were blinded by nostalgia. I think it is more obvious as each match goes by. How can a team be worse than the sum of it's parts? Management and coaching.
 

Siezard

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Everything is about winning trophies. If De Gea had just saved one penalty and Man utd won the Europa, then people would be saying that the club is making progress with Ole.
 

Hammondo

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Everything is about winning trophies. If De Gea had just saved one penalty and Man utd won the Europa, then people would be saying that the club is making progress with Ole.
Doubt it, should never have been in that competition at all.
 

kthanksbye

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Everything is about winning trophies. If De Gea had just saved one penalty and Man utd won the Europa, then people would be saying that the club is making progress with Ole.
Not really, it would have worked in Ole's credit yes but the fact that we did not qualify for the CL KO and the kind of football we've been playing would still be called out and rightly so.
 

Dan_F

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Fat pay cheques is exactly what Pogba wants. The fact hes holding out and isnt satisfied with the one on the table
Who’s offering him more than £400k a week for (probably) five years?
 

Forevergiggs1

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Fat pay cheques is exactly what Pogba wants. The fact hes holding out and isnt satisfied with the one on the table
I want Pogba to go but I can't blame him for holding out. He's 28 now and it's going to be his last big contract, at least in Europe and seeing how we keep giving ludicrous contracts to players why shouldn't he push his luck? Especially if no one else wants/can afford him.

I agree with most of what you've written and I feel that our real complaint about the Glazers shouldn't be about money we've spent or some model we have - but about the fact they've been unable to put in place the people who would select the right manager. Whatever we've tried has been not been successful, or successful enough, in four attempts.

However, while we obviously struggle to sell players - I think we have a bigger issue: Some weird fear of letting players go for free. We keep giving new contracts to fringe players. Maybe it's an attempt to keep some value attached to them to we can cash him on them, but if we fail to sell them we are just stuck with them.
I wouldn't bet all my money on it but hopefully with the restructuring going on inside the club it shows some intent of at least trying to get into the 21st century. It's been incredible the naivety on hiring managers especially at our club when we've experienced first hand the importance on finding the right person for the job but then again giving Ole another contract when we did doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.

I agree it's weird our transfer/extend contract policy. I've read somewhere that in the last decade we've only made a profit on selling 5 players. The most profit we've made was selling Dan James which in itself is an incredible stat.
 

Pace Abuser

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We live in a country that employed Sam Allardyce as the NT manager and was optimistic.

United are stuck in 90s footballing culture.
 

AndySmith1990

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Everything is about winning trophies. If De Gea had just saved one penalty and Man utd won the Europa, then people would be saying that the club is making progress with Ole.
Certain people would certainly argue that case, but it could also be argued that ending up in the Europa league again points to not making progress. Comfortably making it to the latter stages of the CL every season would give me more confidence in the manager than winning the Europa league every season.
 

justsomebloke

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And yet we act like this is just a random coincidence. It's not. And Ole's replacement will be equally unable to do anything to win silverware. Because the problem is not the manager. The manager is a symptom.

Quite simply the Glazers are not willing to outspend City or, more importantly, restructure the club to put football first. They have no intention of even trying. Fourth is fine. Wenger did this every season for years and it worked very well.

Had City not become an oil state's PR bauble, we probably would have been champions last season and also under Jose. The world has changed from SAF's day and winning the league may be beyond us. Just dreaming that a superstar manager is going to waltz in and make it all work seems a bit simplistic. If that were the case it would have been done long ago.

And yes I know it happened at Liverpool. But Liverpool is run as a sports club, not as a cash machine. That's why Klopp went there and not here.
We have the second highest net spend in the PL in the post-Ferguson era, 950.4 million to City's 1.021.4. Not much of a difference. And Arsenal, incidentally, is third (629.2 m). So whatever is the reason why United and Arsenal has gone downwards, it's not a lack of investment. Unwise transfer decisions (Arsenal) and frequent changes of direction (United) seem the most obvious culprits to me.
 

Forevergiggs1

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Everything is about winning trophies. If De Gea had just saved one penalty and Man utd won the Europa, then people would be saying that the club is making progress with Ole.
It's really not. Winning trophies playing hit and miss football is a mid table club mentality. I'd much rather go without trophies if I see marked improvement on the playing side. When we start playing consistently well the trophies will come with the squad we have but for now we're not playing consistently well or winning trophies which after 3 years should be more of a worry to the people who continually support Ole.
 

justsomebloke

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Seeing a lot of "after 3 years" and arguments along the line of different things having been consistently not good enough throughout those three years etc.

Which I think is very sloppy thinking. We were a completely different team in 2019 than we are now. How we've been in those 3 years seen as a whole is not important. And if anyone thinks that we are anything other than a much different and a much better team now than we were in the spring of 2019, you need your memory checked. If you think you've been seeing the same thing for three years, then sorry, you've lost it. You haven't.

What's important is where we'll be this season and next. It's fine to think we should be seeing something better than we currently are (I do too), but let's not forget that's about questioning progress. This has been a process and even if things do pick up, we're probably not at the end of it yet.
 

Forevergiggs1

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Seeing a lot of "after 3 years" and arguments along the line of different things having been consistently not good enough throughout those three years etc.

Which I think is very sloppy thinking. We were a completely different team in 2019 than we are now. How we've been in those 3 years seen as a whole is not important. And if anyone thinks that we are anything other than a much different and a much better team now than we were in the spring of 2019, you need your memory checked. If you think you've been seeing the same thing for three years, then sorry, you've lost it. You haven't.

What's important is where we'll be this season and next. It's fine to think we should be seeing something better than we currently are (I do too), but let's not forget that's about questioning progress. This has been a process and even if things do pick up, we're probably not at the end of it yet.
The only thing that's changed in the last 3 years is we now have better players for which Ole and the club deserve credit but that's where the difference ends. The tactics (or lack of) are the same ever since Ole signed as permanent manager. Purple patch followed by horrendous performances is the norm under Ole. This season we all expected much better performances from what we're seeing with the signings made but nothing has changed. Of course players need time to settle but the last month has seen us play the worst football I can ever remember us playing.

To be honest I'm waiting for us to go on a decent run now with the games coming up which is another Ole trait. Wait till he's under pressure pulls off some great results before it inevitability turns to shit again. In cat lives he's probably spent about 7 of his 9 so hopefully it won't be too long before we actually get someone in who knows what it takes to manage at the highest level because I think even the most ardent Ole supporters knows Ole isn't the one.
 

Longshanks

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I always find it amusing how staunch Ole outers are adamant our rivals all have considerably better managers than us and those rivals have at least similar quality squads if not better than us. Yet if we finish just below them this season that would be a catastrophic failure that proves that Ole is an utterly useless manager.

Mental gymnastics and all that.

The fact is the PL is as competitive as I can ever remember it, i don't think I can remember it being so competitive the task for Ole is probably one of the most difficult any manager has faced pittting himself against 2 managers who are the best of there generation and another who is very highly rated. All of which have world class teams and 2 of which have bottomless resources and incredibly deep squads full of top talent.

The competiveness of the Premier league doesn't end there either with the top ten all being sides that wouldn't look out of place in the champions league and even the bottom ten would all be fairly comfortable in any other league in Europe.

7 games is all we have played so far not even a 1/4 of the season, its not been a perfect start by any stretch of the imaganation but even if it was it wouldn't guarantee anything we would still be just 7 games in with everything still to play for. All the teams will have little spells where they struggle for a few games and they will have spells where they look unbeatable its a long season with lots still to happen and as its stands anything is still possible.
 

glazed

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The only thing that's changed in the last 3 years is we now have better players for which Ole and the club deserve credit but that's where the difference ends. The tactics (or lack of) are the same ever since Ole signed as permanent manager.
That is because the players aren't being bought to fit an overall style of play. The style of play is being determined by the available players which is why it is so disjointed and basic. Ultimately we are over reliant on individual brilliance which makes routinely grinding out wins quite hard.
 

Forevergiggs1

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That is because the players aren't being bought to fit an overall style of play. The style of play is being determined by the available players which is why it is so disjointed and basic. Ultimately we are over reliant on individual brilliance which makes routinely grinding out wins quite hard.
But when will it ever end? Last season we all said we need a player on the right. We bought Sancho. We said we need a better CB to accompany Maquire. We got Varane. A lot of people said we need an out and out striker , we got Ronaldo. That's 2 WC players for their positions and a potential WC talent in Sancho. Like I said before players need time to settle but not on the level we've been witnessing this season with our performances.

For me at least it's as plain as day that Ole doesn't have what it takes to manage these level of players. How could he after what he's shown in 10 years of management? While it may be disjointed there are plenty of managers out there that could get a better tune out of the squad than Ole and I don't think it's going to be too long before the players turn on him so one of Oles strengths in bringing the feel good factor back will soon be forgotten. What does that leave him? Man management? Not throwing his players under the bus? I don't think that's reason enough to keep him on as manager. Do you?
 

glazed

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But when will it ever end? Last season we all said we need a player on the right. We bought Sancho. We said we need a better CB to accompany Maquire. We got Varane. A lot of people said we need an out and out striker , we got Ronaldo.
We did need those things. Arguably we did not need a striker because Cavani came good, but Ronaldo is an upgrade. But we also need a defensive midfield so the whole thing hangs together and doesn't misfire, leaving us constantly vulnerable on the break.

But the deeper issue is that we do not have the pattern of high press play that the most successful teams have. And yes that does require a much better manager than Ole. But it also requires a different set of players bought with that purpose. And therefore it ultimately requires owners who are willing to put success on the field ahead of short term financial decisions.

If it were as easy as going to the manager shop and buying the delux version, we would have done it already.
 

Maticmaker

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Ever since Martin Edwards put the club up as a quoted entity on the stock exchange, there has always been the need for two senior managers at the club one for the playing side and one to make money. It was perhaps inevitable that when a business operation, like the Glazer's have, came along these two senior managers, instead of working together on every aspect, would eventually be conflicted at times because their aims differed. The worst case scenario in recent times was undoubtedly Jose and Ed Woodward.

The owners seemed to realise (at least at one stage) that a tripartite senior manager configuration was required, CEO, DoF and Manager/Coach, where disputes and disagreements could be settled preferably with all three in agreement, but on a 2-1 vote if necessary.
Now however there is still no discernible tripartite structure, the Chairman is the heavyweight decision-maker, Ole gets a hearing no doubt but his position as interim manager promoted to full time Senior Team Coach doesn't put him on a par with the Chairman (and owner), or it might be said, give him the gravitas of a proven top flight manager. Somehow Ole, until he starts collecting silverware, will not be able to affect any real top decisions at the club and I feel its unfair for us fans to believe he can.

United fans have always recognised the importance of good managers,at the club, its just we now have the money maker managers in the ascendancy.
 

Forevergiggs1

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We did need those things. Arguably we did not need a striker because Cavani came good, but Ronaldo is an upgrade. But we also need a defensive midfield so the whole thing hangs together and doesn't misfire, leaving us constantly vulnerable on the break.

But the deeper issue is that we do not have the pattern of high press play that the most successful teams have. And yes that does require a much better manager than Ole. But it also requires a different set of players bought with that purpose. And therefore it ultimately requires owners who are willing to put success on the field ahead of short term financial decisions.

If it were as easy as going to the manager shop and buying the delux version, we would have done it already.
This is why I asked when will it ever end? We needed to fill 4 important positions on the pitch and we filled 3 of them with very little effect, which makes me doubt signing a DM is suddenly going to turn us into serial PL or CL winners. It's the whole system failing and not just in 1 position.

I still think you're underestimating the players we have. Good players can be taught systems like high pressing without having to change half the team. Take Mahrez at City. Would anyone who watched him at Leicester ever think he could ever fit into a Pep team? His roles in the 2 sides were night and day but he had no problem adjusting to a different system.

I can't believe young hungry players like Greenwood, Rashford or Sancho can't be taught the art of the high press. It's like anything in life. The more you practise a thing the more natural it becomes but when you look at our players chasing after a ball it's really quite comical. It's every man for himself with zero patterns which is why it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the players start to get pissed off which will be the start of Oles downfall.
 

glazed

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I can't believe young hungry players like Greenwood, Rashford or Sancho can't be taught the art of the high press. It's like anything in life. The more you practise a thing the more natural it becomes but when you look at our players chasing after a ball it's really quite comical. It's every man for himself with zero patterns which is why it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the players start to get pissed off which will be the start of Oles downfall.
I agree some will and some won't be able to do it. Top of the won't list are DDG and Ronaldo though. There will be a couple of others - Pogba probably. That's not easy to work around. It will take time and money. Why bother when you can get top four without it?

This is why I asked when will it ever end? We needed to fill 4 important positions on the pitch and we filled 3 of them with very little effect, which makes me doubt signing a DM is suddenly going to turn us into serial PL or CL winners. It's the whole system failing and not just in 1 position.
This is true. But the club strategy is not to win these things but to participate in them. A hotchpotch of kids and aging Harlem Globetrotters can do that effectively as well as sell shirts.
 
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Mr. MUJAC

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It has always irked me that some United fans refuse to believe that managers have levels just like players and you simply can't win with average manager who has no plan and tactical nous. We've seen the likes of Klopp, Pep etc. build teams that play identically dominating brands of football across multiple leagues. It's as if they have some sort of formula, a secret recipe that if given time and adequate resources will definitely result in successful teams that dominate games and win silverware. Why are some United fans and the board completely oblivious to this?
It has always irked me than the history of our club has proven than sticking wit
It has always irked me that some United fans refuse to believe that managers have levels just like players and you simply can't win with average manager who has no plan and tactical nous. We've seen the likes of Klopp, Pep etc. build teams that play identically dominating brands of football across multiple leagues. It's as if they have some sort of formula, a secret recipe that if given time and adequate resources will definitely result in successful teams that dominate games and win silverware. Why are some United fans and the board completely oblivious to this?
Yep...we tried Van Gaal and Mourinho...loved watching that football.

FFS
 

wolvored

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Who’s offering him more than £400k a week for (probably) five years?
We dont know if that amount is whats on the table, but if Pogba can be got on a free PSG for example can offer a lot more. Maybe Madrid, where he really wants to go.
 

wolvored

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I want Pogba to go but I can't blame him for holding out. He's 28 now and it's going to be his last big contract, at least in Europe and seeing how we keep giving ludicrous contracts to players why shouldn't he push his luck? Especially if no one else wants/can afford him.
I agree. Hes been here 6 years and won 3 minor trophies. Hes won more at International level. This is his last hurrah. He wants a crack at winning a league and Ch league.
 

Isotope

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...

And yes I know it happened at Liverpool. But Liverpool is run as a sports club, not as a cash machine. That's why Klopp went there and not here.
This is just 100% speculation. Just because they hit jackpot with Klopp, doesn't mean they run as "sport club" more than United do. They are one manager away to be back to a mere Top 4 club.

Do you think the same when SAF was here under Glazer and we were winning stuff, while Liverpool was huffing and puffing?
 
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stefan92

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This is just 100% speculation. Just because they hit jackpot with Klopp, doesn't mean they run as "sport club" more than United do. Do you think the same when SAF was here under Glazer and we were winning stuff, while Liverpool was huffing and puffing?
It is at least confirmed that United approached Klopp and he was not convinced by Woodwards pitch (especially when you consider Disneyland as the ultimate entertainment cash machine): https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/man...d-red-devils-crazy-/6cb0l4ouw9y41byr0p01z7lfd
 

Sviken

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It is at least confirmed that United approached Klopp and he was not convinced by Woodwards pitch (especially when you consider Disneyland as the ultimate entertainment cash machine): https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/man...d-red-devils-crazy-/6cb0l4ouw9y41byr0p01z7lfd
Okay, but you have to take into account is that when Woodward approached Klopp, Klopp had his comfy job at Dortmund. Things got sour after that and he wanted to leave. That's when Liverpool approached him. I'm sure he would have picked us at that point over Liverpool had Woodward approached him, but we went with Van Gaal and didn't look back. Obviously a mistake on our part, but it's not like he rejected us over Liverpool.
 

glazed

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This is just 100% speculation. Just because they hit jackpot with Klopp, doesn't mean they run as "sport club" more than United do. They are one manager away to be back to a mere Top 4 club.

Do you think the same when SAF was here under Glazer and we were winning stuff, while Liverpool was huffing and puffing?
SAF had control of transfers. SAF did not have to go up against clubs with almost zero financial constraints. He would not have won that many titles if it were otherwise.

I agree the dippers got lucky with Klopp and will go back to mediocrity once he's gone. But still he went there so he must have felt they were a serious project.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...eague-final-real-madrid-a8367236.html?r=98486

“They took me like I am, they didn’t ask me to do anything else, so I could focus from the first day completely on football.

“It is a football club. A FOOTBALL club.

“I had talks with other clubs and they didn’t sound like a football club. It sounded like marketing, image, you need to sign this, you need to sign that. And I thought ‘wow, that’s not the game I love’.”


He's talking about Ed, obviously.
 

Sviken

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SAF had control of transfers. SAF did not have to go up against clubs with almost zero financial constraints. He would not have won that many titles if it were otherwise.

I agree the dippers got lucky with Klopp and will go back to mediocrity once he's gone. But still he went there so he must have felt they were a serious project.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...eague-final-real-madrid-a8367236.html?r=98486

“They took me like I am, they didn’t ask me to do anything else, so I could focus from the first day completely on football.

“It is a football club. A FOOTBALL club.

“I had talks with other clubs and they didn’t sound like a football club. It sounded like marketing, image, you need to sign this, you need to sign that. And I thought ‘wow, that’s not the game I love’.”


He's talking about Ed, obviously.
Klopp is speaking out of his ass with this, as he is often inclined to do. I'm the last person who'd defend the Glazers, but the reality is that he didn't go to Liverpool because "muh project", he went there because Liverpool were the ones who offered him the job at the right time. Even if Woodward gave him the best pitch possible, I doubt Klopp would have left Dortmund at the time. Klopp strikes me as a loyal guy who wouldn't abandon the club who gave him such an opportunity. So it doesn't exactly matter what gimmicky pitch Ed gave him, he wasn't coming here at that particular time no matter what. Obviously afterwards he'd cozy the scousers with the typical "it was my dream to play/be manager here" stuff, but the situation is obvious. Our only fault seems that afterwards Ed seems to have given up on the pursuit. And tbf, Klopp was coming off a very shaky season, despite his accomplishments, so it's not entirely unreasonable.
 

glazed

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Klopp is speaking out of his ass with this, as he is often inclined to do.
Well no offence but I'm going with what he said, not what you say. Sounds completely plausible to me. Given that the Glazers appointed Ole they pretty much proved him right. Foootball is not their priority. And that is the fundamental problem, not Ole's poor grasp of coaching.

That said you are right about timing. If Ed had really wanted him , he would have timed it better.
 
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Amir

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Well no offence but I'm going with what he said, not what you say. Sounds completely plausible to me. Given that the Glazers appointed Ole they pretty much proved him right. Foootball is not their priority. And that is the fundamental problem, not Ole's poor grasp of coaching.
The Glazers also appointed Solskjaer on a permanent basis after the result massively improved. Now, you can blame their lack of football knowledge and that they weren't able to look deeper. But I don't see how you can blame their intentions.

That said you are right about timing. If Ed had really wanted him , he would have timed it better.
He could only have timed it better to when Klopp didn't have a job. And when that happened, in the summer of 2015, we weren't looking to replace LVG.
 

Tyrion

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All of Moyes, Vangle, Mourinho and Ole have, in one way or another, shown that they weren't up to the task long before the fans became "suitably impatient".
That is debatable. Some clubs are too quick to pull the trigger (Chelsea with Ancelotti or Conte). I'm OK with United erring on the side of caution when it comes to sacking managers. That said, I think we've reached the point with OGS were it makes sense to replace him.
 

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Klopp is speaking out of his ass with this, as he is often inclined to do. I'm the last person who'd defend the Glazers, but the reality is that he didn't go to Liverpool because "muh project", he went there because Liverpool were the ones who offered him the job at the right time. Even if Woodward gave him the best pitch possible, I doubt Klopp would have left Dortmund at the time. Klopp strikes me as a loyal guy who wouldn't abandon the club who gave him such an opportunity. So it doesn't exactly matter what gimmicky pitch Ed gave him, he wasn't coming here at that particular time no matter what. Obviously afterwards he'd cozy the scousers with the typical "it was my dream to play/be manager here" stuff, but the situation is obvious. Our only fault seems that afterwards Ed seems to have given up on the pursuit. And tbf, Klopp was coming off a very shaky season, despite his accomplishments, so it's not entirely unreasonable.
I’ve always thought this, the discussion has always been spoken about as rather informal. A kind of information gathering exercise.

Klopp is rather outspoken, has he ever said he turned down the job? I’ve seen the marketing comments but its always sounded to me like a head hunting situation where you’re invited in & shown the best of a company but there’s no offer.