Why are United fans so oblivious to importance of good managers?

Isotope

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And yes I know it happened at Liverpool. But Liverpool is run as a sports club, not as a cash machine. That's why Klopp went there and not here.
This is just 100% speculation. Just because they hit jackpot with Klopp, doesn't mean they run as "sport club" more than United do. They are one manager away to be back to a mere Top 4 club.

Do you think the same when SAF was here under Glazer and we were winning stuff, while Liverpool was huffing and puffing?
 
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stefan92

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This is just 100% speculation. Just because they hit jackpot with Klopp, doesn't mean they run as "sport club" more than United do. Do you think the same when SAF was here under Glazer and we were winning stuff, while Liverpool was huffing and puffing?
It is at least confirmed that United approached Klopp and he was not convinced by Woodwards pitch (especially when you consider Disneyland as the ultimate entertainment cash machine): https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/man...d-red-devils-crazy-/6cb0l4ouw9y41byr0p01z7lfd
 

Sviken

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It is at least confirmed that United approached Klopp and he was not convinced by Woodwards pitch (especially when you consider Disneyland as the ultimate entertainment cash machine): https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/man...d-red-devils-crazy-/6cb0l4ouw9y41byr0p01z7lfd
Okay, but you have to take into account is that when Woodward approached Klopp, Klopp had his comfy job at Dortmund. Things got sour after that and he wanted to leave. That's when Liverpool approached him. I'm sure he would have picked us at that point over Liverpool had Woodward approached him, but we went with Van Gaal and didn't look back. Obviously a mistake on our part, but it's not like he rejected us over Liverpool.
 

glazed

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This is just 100% speculation. Just because they hit jackpot with Klopp, doesn't mean they run as "sport club" more than United do. They are one manager away to be back to a mere Top 4 club.

Do you think the same when SAF was here under Glazer and we were winning stuff, while Liverpool was huffing and puffing?
SAF had control of transfers. SAF did not have to go up against clubs with almost zero financial constraints. He would not have won that many titles if it were otherwise.

I agree the dippers got lucky with Klopp and will go back to mediocrity once he's gone. But still he went there so he must have felt they were a serious project.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...eague-final-real-madrid-a8367236.html?r=98486

“They took me like I am, they didn’t ask me to do anything else, so I could focus from the first day completely on football.

“It is a football club. A FOOTBALL club.

“I had talks with other clubs and they didn’t sound like a football club. It sounded like marketing, image, you need to sign this, you need to sign that. And I thought ‘wow, that’s not the game I love’.”


He's talking about Ed, obviously.
 

Sviken

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SAF had control of transfers. SAF did not have to go up against clubs with almost zero financial constraints. He would not have won that many titles if it were otherwise.

I agree the dippers got lucky with Klopp and will go back to mediocrity once he's gone. But still he went there so he must have felt they were a serious project.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...eague-final-real-madrid-a8367236.html?r=98486

“They took me like I am, they didn’t ask me to do anything else, so I could focus from the first day completely on football.

“It is a football club. A FOOTBALL club.

“I had talks with other clubs and they didn’t sound like a football club. It sounded like marketing, image, you need to sign this, you need to sign that. And I thought ‘wow, that’s not the game I love’.”


He's talking about Ed, obviously.
Klopp is speaking out of his ass with this, as he is often inclined to do. I'm the last person who'd defend the Glazers, but the reality is that he didn't go to Liverpool because "muh project", he went there because Liverpool were the ones who offered him the job at the right time. Even if Woodward gave him the best pitch possible, I doubt Klopp would have left Dortmund at the time. Klopp strikes me as a loyal guy who wouldn't abandon the club who gave him such an opportunity. So it doesn't exactly matter what gimmicky pitch Ed gave him, he wasn't coming here at that particular time no matter what. Obviously afterwards he'd cozy the scousers with the typical "it was my dream to play/be manager here" stuff, but the situation is obvious. Our only fault seems that afterwards Ed seems to have given up on the pursuit. And tbf, Klopp was coming off a very shaky season, despite his accomplishments, so it's not entirely unreasonable.
 

glazed

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Klopp is speaking out of his ass with this, as he is often inclined to do.
Well no offence but I'm going with what he said, not what you say. Sounds completely plausible to me. Given that the Glazers appointed Ole they pretty much proved him right. Foootball is not their priority. And that is the fundamental problem, not Ole's poor grasp of coaching.

That said you are right about timing. If Ed had really wanted him , he would have timed it better.
 
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Amir

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Well no offence but I'm going with what he said, not what you say. Sounds completely plausible to me. Given that the Glazers appointed Ole they pretty much proved him right. Foootball is not their priority. And that is the fundamental problem, not Ole's poor grasp of coaching.
The Glazers also appointed Solskjaer on a permanent basis after the result massively improved. Now, you can blame their lack of football knowledge and that they weren't able to look deeper. But I don't see how you can blame their intentions.

That said you are right about timing. If Ed had really wanted him , he would have timed it better.
He could only have timed it better to when Klopp didn't have a job. And when that happened, in the summer of 2015, we weren't looking to replace LVG.
 

Tyrion

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All of Moyes, Vangle, Mourinho and Ole have, in one way or another, shown that they weren't up to the task long before the fans became "suitably impatient".
That is debatable. Some clubs are too quick to pull the trigger (Chelsea with Ancelotti or Conte). I'm OK with United erring on the side of caution when it comes to sacking managers. That said, I think we've reached the point with OGS were it makes sense to replace him.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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Klopp is speaking out of his ass with this, as he is often inclined to do. I'm the last person who'd defend the Glazers, but the reality is that he didn't go to Liverpool because "muh project", he went there because Liverpool were the ones who offered him the job at the right time. Even if Woodward gave him the best pitch possible, I doubt Klopp would have left Dortmund at the time. Klopp strikes me as a loyal guy who wouldn't abandon the club who gave him such an opportunity. So it doesn't exactly matter what gimmicky pitch Ed gave him, he wasn't coming here at that particular time no matter what. Obviously afterwards he'd cozy the scousers with the typical "it was my dream to play/be manager here" stuff, but the situation is obvious. Our only fault seems that afterwards Ed seems to have given up on the pursuit. And tbf, Klopp was coming off a very shaky season, despite his accomplishments, so it's not entirely unreasonable.
I’ve always thought this, the discussion has always been spoken about as rather informal. A kind of information gathering exercise.

Klopp is rather outspoken, has he ever said he turned down the job? I’ve seen the marketing comments but its always sounded to me like a head hunting situation where you’re invited in & shown the best of a company but there’s no offer.
 

stefan92

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I’ve always thought this, the discussion has always been spoken about as rather informal. A kind of information gathering exercise.

Klopp is rather outspoken, has he ever said he turned down the job? I’ve seen the marketing comments but its always sounded to me like a head hunting situation where you’re invited in & shown the best of a company but there’s no offer.
I guess that discussion with Woodward was before they made anything formal. Like you say, get to know each other and check if there is a possibility. I don't think the talks went further than that, that fits that Klopp said he decided to stay in Dortmund, but not that he turned down a formal offer.
 

glazed

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The Glazers also appointed Solskjaer on a permanent basis after the result massively improved. Now, you can blame their lack of football knowledge and that they weren't able to look deeper. But I don't see how you can blame their intentions.
You don't need a huge amount of football knowledge to know he wasn't challenging for the title or the CL. But that was never the plan. Th Glazers are happy with top four. Getting out of the CL group stage is a bonus. It's really just a big spreadsheet to them.

He could only have timed it better to when Klopp didn't have a job. And when that happened, in the summer of 2015, we weren't looking to replace LVG.
If he was ambitious he would have made it his long term goal. City were that clinical about their pursuit of Pep. Because their owners wanted to dominate the EPL and win the CL. Our owners don't really care.
 

Amir

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If he was ambitious he would have made it his long term goal. City were that clinical about their pursuit of Pep. Because their owners wanted to dominate the EPL and win the CL. Our owners don't really care.
I really don't remember any club working on a future manager like City did with Pep.

You can blame United for a lot of things. Believing too much in LVG, not looking towards the future, not being proactive enough, not understanding football enough. But I'd say our failings are not due to bad intentions or lack of caring.
 

glazed

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I really don't remember any club working on a future manager like City did with Pep.

You can blame United for a lot of things. Believing too much in LVG, not looking towards the future, not being proactive enough, not understanding football enough. But I'd say our failings are not due to bad intentions or lack of caring.
Isn't it the same thing? You own a $4 billion football club and you don't understand football? That's because you put an accountant in charge whose performance targets are based on how much cash he sends you every month and nothing else. Said accountant sees little financial gain in finishing first instead of second third or fourth and quite a big cost to making the investment that makes such a winning outcome likely - given it means beating a rival that cares nothing for how much they spend. So he makes little effort to do so. It's that simple.

Klopp basically said that he didn't want the United job because we are not a football first club. There's every reason to think that's completely accurate. Any other elite level manager will think the same.
 

Giggsy13

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Liverpool sacked a manager who took them to within an inch of the title to bring in a better manager.
City replaced a manager that won them the fecking title to get Pep.
If anything Liverpool are the example that Souness, Dalglish, and Roy Evans appointments are based on romantic bollocks. Once you start employing the best available and are prepared to move quick on available managers, you’ll more likely get back to the top that way.
We’ve been trending like 90s and 2000s Liverpool since Sir Alex retired. The similarities are scary and like the dippers with sourness and evans, we’re holding on to a romantic idea of the club that just doesn’t exist in reality anymore.
 

glazed

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We’ve been trending like 90s and 2000s Liverpool since Sir Alex retired. The similarities are scary and like the dippers with sourness and evans, we’re holding on to a romantic idea of the club that just doesn’t exist in reality anymore.
Exactly. Elite managers get to choose their next club. The idea that Old Trafford would be on their list is the delusion of fans who don't see the reality of how our club is actually run. We are in the tier below at best and a poisoned chalice at worst. Having Ole around hides that.
 

EricIn93

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It's the fans you need to be asking that question to, it's the board mate.
This. I completely agree with the post but ultimately the owners and board are stuck on tradition and identity. Very nice, lovely and loyal, but we wont win anything until the manager is top level modern manager with big personality.
 

devilish

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Ole is doing a lot of things that Top reds like. He's a club legend, whose hiring club legends as coaches, whose buying British talent and who playing the likes of McCleverley. When pressure gets too high he goes in full nostalgia path by quoting Sir Alex as if the old man would have accepted spending that shitloads of money and not getting anywhere near a top trophy. So you'll have a segment of fans who will always support Ole no matter what.

Ironically Sir Alex found the same resistance as well. I know of fans who started supporting United in the 60s and 70s who doesn't look kindly at him removing the pub club mentality. They just miss getting wasted with the likes of George Best.
 

devilish

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Exactly. Elite managers get to choose their next club. The idea that Old Trafford would be on their list is the delusion of fans who don't see the reality of how our club is actually run. We are in the tier below at best and a poisoned chalice at worst. Having Ole around hides that.
Actually United is a dream coming true for most managers. Managing with barely any oversight whatsoever is what managers always wanted up until they actually get it and then they make a mess out of it.
 

youmeletsfly

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Isn't it the same thing? You own a $4 billion football club and you don't understand football? That's because you put an accountant in charge whose performance targets are based on how much cash he sends you every month and nothing else. Said accountant sees little financial gain in finishing first instead of second third or fourth and quite a big cost to making the investment that makes such a winning outcome likely - given it means beating a rival that cares nothing for how much they spend. So he makes little effort to do so. It's that simple.

Klopp basically said that he didn't want the United job because we are not a football first club. There's every reason to think that's completely accurate. Any other elite level manager will think the same.
He's not the only one. Ancelotti didn't want to come, Pep didn't even get back to Sir Alex after they met for dinner, Allegri refused United in 2018/19 when he was still managing Juventus (but knew he was going to leave that season).
 

Mr. MUJAC

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Ole is doing a lot of things that Top reds like. He's a club legend, whose hiring club legends as coaches, whose buying British talent and who playing the likes of McCleverley. When pressure gets too high he goes in full nostalgia path by quoting Sir Alex as if the old man would have accepted spending that shitloads of money and not getting anywhere near a top trophy. So you'll have a segment of fans who will always support Ole no matter what.

Ironically Sir Alex found the same resistance as well. I know of fans who started supporting United in the 60s and 70s who doesn't look kindly at him removing the pub club mentality. They just miss getting wasted with the likes of George Best.
Firstly, Ferguson DID spend shit loads of money at first and got nowhere. From 1986 to 1990 he bought Viv Anderson, Brian McClair, Mark Hughes, Steve Bruce, Jim Leighton, Mal Donaghy, Mike Phelan, Gary Pallister, Paul Ince, Danny Wallace, Neil Webb. That's a whole new team.

And there plenty of United fans from that period who knew that moving towards a more disciplined approach was necessary if we were going to really challenge for the league.

In addition, this 'pub club' mentality existed in 91 other clubs as well during that period. That was the culture at the time.
 

devilish

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Firstly, Ferguson DID spend shit loads of money at first and got nowhere. From 1986 to 1990 he bought Viv Anderson, Brian McClair, Mark Hughes, Steve Bruce, Jim Leighton, Mal Donaghy, Mike Phelan, Gary Pallister, Paul Ince, Danny Wallace, Neil Webb. That's a whole new team.

And there plenty of United fans from that period who knew that moving towards a more disciplined approach was necessary if we were going to really challenge for the league.

In addition, this 'pub club' mentality existed in 91 other clubs as well during that period. That was the culture at the time.
Sir Alex found a disaster of a club, a sleeping giant who was happy to with just rising to occasion at times to ruin Liverpool success and go back to mediocrity and nostalgia soon after. It also had a severe alcohol problem at every level from youths to first team which meant that it had to be destroyed and rebuilt again. Its a very different situation to what Ole found. Actually I dare to say that in some aspects we're reverting to that level of complacency, with many fans happy to spend yet another trophyless season as long as we're 'heading to the right direction' and we're stocking with 'people who knows what Manchester United is all about' BS.

I agree with your second sentence. However I assure you that some weren't happy with the discipline and professionalism Sir Alex brought. I met with people whose fondest memories are getting totally wasted with the likes of George Best. Sir Alex ended that and I dare say he set the bar for other clubs to do the same, bringing EPL football out of the dark ages.
 

gerdm07

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The problem I have with this thread is that many of you think a new manager will bring instant success. Yes, there are success stories about new managers coming in and winning a significant title, however, there are more stories of new managers winning nothing and leaving a club in 2 to 3 years. Nothing is guaranteed in sports. LVG and Mou are prime examples. There is no manager in the world who would have won a big title with the roster Ole had his first 2 years. We were not that good. We are much better right now, but the major problem right now is the midfield, not Ole. No one wins titles without a very good midfield.