Why are we buying a CB when it's arguably our strongest position?

flappyjay

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Our CBs are massively overrated in here. However LB should be our first priority, followed by RW.
I think that's the point though. LB, RW and cm should have been prioritized with RW top of the list.
 

charlenefan

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Fair enough but do you think not having a right winger at the club and 30+ year olds as our first choice fullbacks is conducive to great counter attacking football? I accept your point but we're slow as shit in transition, having the speed to leave the CBs exposed in the first place would actually be a fine thing.
Absolutely Jose needs the money to address all positions, the board have hung him out to dry thus far this summer
 

Green_Red

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Because our back lines needs to be improved. Between Smalling, Jones and Rojo they have proved incapable of putting in any sort of consistent form that is required to challenge for a league title. They are liable to drop points. We need defenders that earn points.

RW is the next area that needs to be sorted. FB's I think we can get away with if we strength CB and RW.
 

Siorac

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Yeah but we don't exactly have the CB equivalent of Sanchez, Lukaku, Pogba, Matic in terms of individual quality and maturity now have we? Also, I don't know how bad Rojo and Bailly are injured, but it seems like currently we're one Phil Jones Phil Jonesing himself away from only having Smalling and Lindelof for the start of the season, with Valencia injured too.
What do Matic and Pogba have to do with it? I was talking about the RW position.

And yes, playing Rashford or Lukaku at RW is no better, in terms of quality, than Rojo at CB.
 

CA1

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In my opinion our defensive record isn’t an indication of how good the back 4 is (although it isn’t terrible) but more to the point that we defended as a team. If Jose can trust his CB pairing more maybe he will feel he can be more adventurous with the way the team play
That was Duncan Castles' view on the matter too.

Not sure how evident it will be but we'll see.
 

Henrik Larsson

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What do Matic and Pogba have to do with it? I was talking about the RW position.

And yes, playing Rashford or Lukaku at RW is no better, in terms of quality, than Rojo at CB.
I'm talking about the fact you stated that CB is arguably our strongest position, while I think that it's not even up for debate we have more quality in other areas.

We also have a manager who stated he would still like to make more than one transfer.
 

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The reason we had such a good defensive record was not down to the centre backs. It was mostly down to the goalkeeper. Plus we park the bus so much that it makes it a lot harder for other teams to score. Imagine we played a more expansive game. Our defenders would be left more exposed. They'd be torn apart.

It is certainly not our strongest position.
 

devilish

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In my opinion our defensive record isn’t an indication of how good the back 4 is (although it isn’t terrible) but more to the point that we defended as a team. If Jose can trust his CB pairing more maybe he will feel he can be more adventurous with the way the team play
Look I don't really rate our CBs. None of them are even near in terms of talent to the Bruce-Pally, Stam-Johnsen let alone Rio-Vidic partnerships we had in the past years. However while I understand and agree with your point. We mustn't forget that we'll be starting the season with two 33 year old failed wingers as our FBs. Unless Mou believe that Mitchell, Dalot and TFM are ready to step in as first teamers then not adding 2 or at least 1 fullback is lunacy
 

Siorac

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I'm talking about the fact you stated that CB is arguably our strongest position, while I think that it's not even up for debate we have more quality in other areas.
I did not state that, that was someone else :) But you said that we had more quality in attack which I still disagree with. And that's what I'm arguing here.
 

devilish

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Smalling - shit
Jones - less shit
Rojo - good sometimes
Bailly - sick note
Lindelof - uncooked meat
I am not a big fan of Hodor and Bran but jeez Rojo is the weakest of the lot
 

Bastian

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This idea that once Jose gets a ball playing CB he'll commit to playing out from the back is unfounded to me.

There is nothing that would point to that occurring.
Not like City, of course not. But to have the ability to bring the ball out is good for every team and not having that limits us significantly. It brings composure to the backline and increases our options in the attacking build up and quicker transitions.

Liverpool have been able to play much more attractive attacking football with a GK and CBs equally as average, if not worse, with the ball at their feet than the options Utd have, so it's not just that.

LB and RW are much more concerning. You can get away with not having the most creative CBs if the other players can create, but Utd have too many players in key positions unable to beat a man or deliver a good final ball.
Van Dijk is better with the ball at his feet than any of our centre backs.
 

Bastian

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United's recent history proves that this concept is wrong. LVG used worse players and also a part of the current players in the way that you are describing and at the time the problem was a below par midfield and attacking personnel, the transition from defense to midfield was our most reliable quality. Our problem still concerns our attacking organization and the ineptitude of our midfield to efficiently support the attack and the defense, we lack aggression, creativity and urgency.
I don't disagree with the other problems you lay out there. But I see our defenders against any high pressing team and I feel as nervous as watching a penalty shoot out. And when we don't have a target man or a ball carrier in midfield, we'll have games like we did in that preseason friendly against Bayern. Lumping it forward and hurriedly organising our defensive shape.
 

Red_Ramirez

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Mainly because (minus Lindelof) they are injury prone

We dont score enough goals which is just as big a concern for me
 

99withaflake

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We are fairly average in the centre of defence. We have a team that is set up extremely defensively, and when they are exposed to quality or pressure, the best keeper in the world bails them out with wonder saves on a consistent basis.
 

Bosws87

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Have you had the joy of sitting watching a game live with Smalling trying to pass the ball out of his feet, you won't see a more awkward passer of the ball at the top level, its painful to watch.

Half of the problem with out team stems from the defence and the lack of moving the ball quickly from their feet.
 

12OunceEpilogue

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Absolutely Jose needs the money to address all positions, the board have hung him out to dry thus far this summer
The TF thread 'JM wants six new players this summer [Times]' makes for grim reading in this respect. Though some posters say six new additions would have been unrealistic, and possibly undesirable from a gelling point of view, next to nobody was envisaging any fewer than three quality players coming in such was the work that clearly needed to be done on this squad. We have one so far, and given the expectation most of us had going into the summer questions need to be asked as to why we seem to be scrabbling round in the final days to get a centre back, let alone the two positions that need urgent attention (RW and FB).
 

Siorac

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That was in January...when we still had Zlatan, and before Martial apparently decided he wanted to leave.
I would hope Zlatan was irrelevant to his plans - surely he couldn't have expected him to stay beyond this summer?

Martial... well he replaced him with Sanchez after spending half a summer trying to replace him with Perisic so once again, it is doubtful if he was a part of the plan. If there ever was a plan. Though yes, he did mention Martial when he said we wouldn't spend on attacking players. He's been a peripheral figure for a while now though. Replacing a squad player is unlikely to be a huge priority.
 

James Peril

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Good, no great. Lindelöf is bang average, Jones/Bailly is always injured although good defenders, Smalling a great squad player but not certain starter, Rojo inconsistent with form/injuries. So I beg to differ, a central defender is very much needed.
 

Canagel

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It boggles the mind. Centre back isn't our strongest position but it isn't the worst either. We are desperate for two attacking fullbacks and a right winger. No let's spend 50+ million on a 3rd centre back in 3 years. I'm not saying Jones/Rojo are good enough because they aren't but from what I saw already Bailly and Lindelof are more than capable of playing as first choice. That partnership needs more games. We should play a pressing game and see if they can excel in it. Centre back is the 3rd priority not the biggest one. Only if a top top defender like Godin becomes available we should make an exception otherwise it doesn't make any sense really. Our wide attacking players don't stay wide. Not one of them. Martial, Rashford, Lingard when he plays there, and Sanchez. To really utilize these players to their maximum potential we needed two attacking fullbacks/wingbacks. Dalot is still unproven at this moment in time. Why have we got 3/4 options to fall back on for CB but when we were told the price for Alex Sandro we just walked away without trying any cheaper option? People might say a new CB will help us play a more expansive game but how are two 33 year old winger turned fullbacks and 30 year old Mata supposed to help in this regard? We'll still be useless at transitioning from the back anyway.
 
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JPRouve

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I don't disagree with the other problems you lay out there. But I see our defenders against any high pressing team and I feel as nervous as watching a penalty shoot out. And when we don't have a target man or a ball carrier in midfield, we'll have games like we did in that preseason friendly against Bayern. Lumping it forward and hurriedly organising our defensive shape.
I feel that you are being too simplistic, particularly when this issue isn't limited to our defenders but everyone in the team. Everyone on the caf has complained about the lack of availability and passing options provided to the ball carrier and our defenders aren't different, they don't have options when they are on the ball and will be under pressure when pressed because there is no simple exit options other than hoofing it. This comes back to our piss poor midfield organization, the ones that can't create, recycle, press or cover.
I have said it since 2014, in football center midfield is everything if you are not sound in that area everyone else will suffer. If we fix it, we won't complain about attackers not playing like DMs and defenders not being wannabe play makers because it's not there primary roles. It's probably the thing that bothers me the most and why I end up defending Smalling or Martial like I do, for some reason we refuse to point to the most obvious weakness and focus on things that aren't even universal among top teams. We are shit in transition because our midfield is shit, not the players but the actual midfield, it's one of the worst unit I have seen at a big club.
 

Bastian

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We have two very strong positions IMV, with GK and LW. The rest either do not have quality or rely on one player with a significant drop in quality as back up.
 

Bruno Marques

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If the team doesnt have great CB the tactics need to lower the midfield line so it can cover the defense that why the team stays compact most of the time. If the midfield needs to drop that deep the there will be a ridge beetween it and the attack making the hoof ball the only solution or the attack needs to drop low too making the team have less space to play making it boring because there isnt a creative midfielder good enough on the team (Pogba is great but needs more space)
 

Rake

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Lack of leadership, technical ability and quality. We need a commanding and experienced defender. Such players can elevate the ones around them as well. Alderweireld pretty much ticks all boxes. Boateng would have been great if not for the constant injuries. He'd be a gamble
 

King_Cantona07

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Defence is a weak position for manchester united, inability to initiate moves from back is a reason why team play is so sore to eyes. Yesterdays game there were moments were defenders took first step and the second pass was kick with no aim which went straight to opposition players than trying to find a team member by the defender. All good teams defenders now find a midfielder or winger to play forward. We have players like smalling, rojo, jones etc who cant find same team member on consistent basis. If team play has to improve this has to be fixed first and then RW which is an elephant in room for obvious reasons.
 

dove

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This has been discussed to death. Defensive record is only a fragment of the equation. Playing out from the back, dealing with a high press, shepherding defense are all major issues for us. We've not had a settled back 4 for years.
I think it's more to do with our tactics than the actual quality of our centre backs. Bailly and Lindelof are good enough at playing out from the back. Problem is that we sit so deep we can't get out of our own half because there is no out ball. Although I think Aldeweireld would be an improvement on all our CBs, priority should be elsewhere. Our fullbacks Shaw, Darmian and Valencia are useless. Our right side of the pitch is non existent. Seriously if we start yet another season with Mata as RW, we might as well give up now.
 

ayushreddevil9

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Our CBs can't pass or hold the ball, we keep losing possession when they have the ball. Yesterday pereira was virtually playing like a 5th defender dropping so deep and pushing the ball forwards. That's a glaring weakness and is rightly getting fixed. We just don't have targets available for other positions, doesn't mean that we ignore areas where players are available. Deals can be carried out parallely.
 

sunama

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I don't quite understand this either. A quality FB and a quality RW should have higher priority.
Exactly!
Perhaps Jose wants us to focus on defending and turn us into an ultra defensive team who can win matches 1-0.
Back in the day, Italian teams used to do exactly this. They had the best players in the World and would attempt to win matches 1-0.
 

Minimalist

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I agree in general. It's hardly a weak link beyond injuries. People mention Dave saving our arses and I agree that was the case but I'm not convinced that's entirely due to our centre-backs being dogshit. I imagine you will concede many shots on goal if you sit deep like we do.

I just don't see how centre-back could be the priority. Full-backs, maybe a winger and another midfielder would come way before centre-back for me. Hell even a backup striker would come before it.

The whole argument about having centre-backs who can pass out from the back is such a misdirection I feel. It means fcuk all if we can do that, while looking lost in the final third with players not performing to their capabilities.

On a pragmatic front, both Jones and Rojo can be sold. Both aren't good enough, nevermind whatever injury problems they've had. You could bring maybe one centre-back in to replace them two.
 
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Bastian

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I feel that you are being too simplistic, particularly when this issue isn't limited to our defenders but everyone in the team. Everyone on the caf has complained about the lack of availability and passing options provided to the ball carrier and our defenders aren't different, they don't have options when they are on the ball and will be under pressure when pressed because there is no simple exit options other than hoofing it. This comes back to our piss poor midfield organization, the ones that can't create, recycle, press or cover.
I have said it since 2014, in football center midfield is everything if you are not sound in that area everyone else will suffer. If we fix it, we won't complain about attackers not playing like DMs and defenders not being wannabe play makers because it's not there primary roles. It's probably the thing that bothers me the most and why I end up defending Smalling or Martial like I do, for some reason we refuse to point to the most obvious weakness and focus on things that aren't even universal among top teams. We are shit in transition because our midfield is shit, not the players but the actual midfield, it's one of the worst unit I have seen at a big club.
I'm not thinking that a top class centre back will make the other issues disappear. I actually think there are so many problem areas in the team that I can't really prioritise what's most needed (regardless of who is manager, so as not to go down that rabbit hole). The problem with transition is definitely not limited to midfield. Full backs play a huge part. And I do think a centre back comfortable on the ball does definitely improve that (which is why, worst case scenario, I'd play Matic there if we'd play a 532). Now, if we want to nitpick, I'd add that Lukaku is not a good enough target man, but there are bigger issues elsewhere in the team.

With midfield specifically, we only have Matic as a consistent performer. Pogba has not turned out anywhere near to what we hoped. The rest of the options are mediocre and inconsistent. Hopefully Fred will be somewhat of a pleasant surprise.
 

Minimalist

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Smalling - shit
Jones - less shit
Rojo - good sometimes
Bailly - sick note
Lindelof - uncooked meat
I'm always amazed when posters reveal they don't actually watch us anymore. How anyone could call Smalling shit and then proceed to call Jones 'less shit' and Rojo 'good sometimes' is beyond me.
 

Schmiznurf

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I'm always amazed when posters reveal they don't actually watch us anymore. How anyone could call Smalling shit and then proceed to call Jones 'less shit' and Rojo 'good sometimes' is beyond me.
Jones is a better defender than Smalling though, Smalling used to be good but like Rooney he has deteriorated with age. Back before the injury Rojo was doing fantastic in defence and was easily the second best defender behind Bailly.
 

Bastian

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I think it's more to do with our tactics than the actual quality of our centre backs. Bailly and Lindelof are good enough at playing out from the back. Problem is that we sit so deep we can't get out of our own half because there is no out ball. Although I think Aldeweireld would be an improvement on all our CBs, priority should be elsewhere. Our fullbacks Shaw, Darmian and Valencia are useless. Our right side of the pitch is non existent. Seriously if we start yet another season with Mata as RW, we might as well give up now.
Yeah, I think we are desperate for 3 players. I'm not saying we have a left back or a right sided attacker, as we don't. Just that we can easily improve upon the quality at centre back because our options aren't good (whatever defensive stats indicate, as there's more to it). With Bailly, he struggles to keep fit, he's erratic and prone to major errors, but still our best centre back. Lindelof I have no idea how good is, decent World Cup, a rabbit in the headlights first season, who knows how he'll do this year...
 

99withaflake

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I'm always amazed when posters reveal they don't actually watch us anymore. How anyone could call Smalling shit and then proceed to call Jones 'less shit' and Rojo 'good sometimes' is beyond me.
I’d rank them differently and use “average” instead of “shit” but none should be regularly starting for Manchester United. Not if we’re serious about reaching the top again.
 

Minimalist

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Jones is a better defender than Smalling though, Smalling used to be good but like Rooney he has deteriorated with age. Back before the injury Rojo was doing fantastic in defence and was easily the second best defender behind Bailly.
Nah not having that at all. Smalling is the best out-in-out defender we have and I don't rate him highly or anything (compared to other centre-backs playing at top clubs). His lack of finesse on the ball makes me laugh as much as the next person but that's nothing to do with heading a ball or making a tackle.

Jones is fcuking awful and his injuries (should) make him a complete cert to get fecked out the door. Rojo is average and his rash tackling is always a worry.

Bailly and Lindelof are still developing despite their issues and deserve at least another season to see how they get on. Them two and Smalling should be the main guys, plus another (whether a new transfer or promoting youth).
 

JPRouve

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I'm not thinking that a top class centre back will make the other issues disappear. I actually think there are so many problem areas in the team that I can't really prioritise what's most needed (regardless of who is manager, so as not to go down that rabbit hole). The problem with transition is definitely not limited to midfield. Full backs play a huge part. And I do think a centre back comfortable on the ball does definitely improve that (which is why, worst case scenario, I'd play Matic there if we'd play a 532). Now, if we want to nitpick, I'd add that Lukaku is not a good enough target man, but there are bigger issues elsewhere in the team.

With midfield specifically, we only have Matic as a consistent performer. Pogba has not turned out anywhere near to what we hoped. The rest of the options are mediocre and inconsistent. Hopefully Fred will be somewhat of a pleasant surprise.
I kind of agree with what you are saying but the nuance is that I don't think that you put enough emphasis on midfield. Would you agree with that statement: Transition is the primary role of a midfield while it is a secondary role for every other position group.
I'm not suggesting that the others shouldn't improve but the reality is that your tactical approach will influence how much transition is important as a secondary role for your attackers and defenders but it will always be the primary role of your midfield. So when your midfield fails at his primary role, you should focus on that.

By the way, in the context of transition, I include DM/AM/wingers in midfield, so I make a difference between a 451 and a 433 for example.