Something a bit unusual about this. Is this supposed to be normal? It might be an overreaction, but maybe statistician can make me less paranoid about this.
Why do we rely so much on penalties and set pieces to score?
- Thread starter Amadaeus
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
PoTMS
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Because we clearly aren't being coached. It's probably more, just go out there and play your best. I genuinely think this is the case as this is how my Sunday league team ends up playing and we haven't got a manager nor are we coached. It seems we put all our hopes in Bruno coming up with some magic or one of the opposing defenders makes an error.
marktan
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Lack of coaching and natural wide players, none of Rashford, Greenwood, Shaw, AWB are great at providing width / beating a man.
If you watch City or Pool a lot of their goals are either the full back overlapping and cutting a cross in, or one of the wide forwards using a bit of skill in the box to get away from their defender, and then bang one in. When the defenders are super cramped then you need players like Mane to beat a man or two, or TAA or Robertson to pick a great cross. We don't have that.
If you watch City or Pool a lot of their goals are either the full back overlapping and cutting a cross in, or one of the wide forwards using a bit of skill in the box to get away from their defender, and then bang one in. When the defenders are super cramped then you need players like Mane to beat a man or two, or TAA or Robertson to pick a great cross. We don't have that.
Raw
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We have no attacking style. It's just reliance on individual brilliance to get a lead and then holding onto that lead.
sunama
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That sums it up nicely.Because we’re not well coached. Been obvious for two years now.
We struggle to score in open play against decent opposition and rely heavily on penalties.
Thank goodness for penalties.
Amadaeus
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I expect a penalty or set pieces as our only way to score goals now a days. It is really unnatural even with the lack of coaching. It must speak volumes towards how badly coached we are if we struggle to score a proper open play goal. I don’t expect this to continue, but it has been an usual aspect of Ole’s managerial career here at United.
Igor Drefljak
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Fixed that for yo... Oh wait, no, no, you're right, carry onBecause we’re not well coached. Been obvious for two years now.
SAFMUTD
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[/THREAD]Because we’re not well coached. Been obvious for two years now.
Web of Bissaka
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It's the new United way.
Devastating too since we now have a World Class Penalty Taker, and a very good set-piece deliverer.
Devastating too since we now have a World Class Penalty Taker, and a very good set-piece deliverer.
I'd be very happy if we could score from more set pieces frankly. We're fecking awful at them.
Foxbatt
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Agree with you. Especially on corners.I'd be very happy if we could score from more set pieces frankly. We're fecking awful at them.
It's the most frustrating thing with us imo, we get freekicks and corners in the opponents half and the majority of the time they're fecking abysmal, the quality in crossing is so, so unpredictable. It's infuriating.Agree with you. Especially on corners.
always_hoping
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Need to be more clinical on free kicks no doubt. Take last Tuesday for example. If only that free kick Bruno had hit the net instead of the bar. Straight from that miss RB Leipzig scored their 3rd goal.I'd be very happy if we could score from more set pieces frankly. We're fecking awful at them.
Davie Moyes
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The free kick deliveries from both Bruno and Telles were poor on Tuesday. I was perplexed they were both taking outswinging deliveries when I think they should have swapped around. Remember Telles with the inswingers against PSG, he's not had a chance since.
I always prefer fast inswinging set pieces as they are much harder to defend against and only need a touch sometimes to go in.
I always prefer fast inswinging set pieces as they are much harder to defend against and only need a touch sometimes to go in.
Tom Cato
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Yes this is 100% correct. Your Sunday league team could probably have played just as well. In fact, no one in the club knows anything about football.Because we clearly aren't being coached. It's probably more, just go out there and play your best. I genuinely think this is the case as this is how my Sunday league team ends up playing and we haven't got a manager nor are we coached. It seems we put all our hopes in Bruno coming up with some magic or one of the opposing defenders makes an error.
Yup and thats ultimately the difference between a good team and a top team. Being clinical at important stages in the match, we started off very strong in the second half and got nothing for it, thats what we have to improve on as a team. We had plenty of free kicks and corners in the 2nd half and we should be using those to help build pressure on the opposition, instead we tend to throw it away with tame deliveries. It's a clear weakness in our game right now.Need to be more clinical on free kicks no doubt. Take last Tuesday for example. If only that free kick Bruno had hit the net instead of the bar. Straight from that miss RB Leipzig scored their 3rd goal.
croadyman
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Yeah can only really think of Maguire v Chelsea & Newcastle this year as corners that actually led to a goalYup and thats ultimately the difference between a good team and a top team. Being clinical at important stages in the match, we started off very strong in the second half and got nothing for it, thats what we have to improve on as a team. We had plenty of free kicks and corners in the 2nd half and we should be using those to help build pressure on the opposition, instead we tend to throw it away with tame deliveries. It's a clear weakness in our game right now.
Jericholyte2
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Because it allows for a player to be very good individually rather than relying cohesive, well-coached team interplay.
Dante
Average bang
Our front line are all wingers. Martial, Rashford and Greenwood all like to dribble from deep because they lack the instincts to be in the right place at the right time in the box.
Aubamayang can also dribble, but he has more variety in his game than any of our 3. He doesn't put himself into foulable situations on the edge of the box as often as Rashford/Martial/Greenwood, because he spends more time finding space in penalty area to actually score goals (up until this season, at least). Therefore, he's obviously going to draw fewer penalties than United's first choice lot.
When Mata and James played regularly, they didn't win penalties at anywhere near the same rate. So it obviously has more to do with the individuals than the team they play for.
It's akin to saying that positionally poor defenders need to make more tackles to compensate for being out of position more often. Wan Bissaka is the best tackler in the league, but he's also positionally suspect. That's not a conspiracy to pad Wan Bissaka's stats. It's a consequence of the way he plays football. There's also no conspiracy to pad Bruno's stats.
Our attack's strengths and weaknesses are exactly the same reasons why we're brilliant on the counter but shit at breaking a low block. We too often dribble from outside the box and play most of our football in front of opposition defences. It makes us easy to defend against... up until the point when one of those dribbles lead to a penalty.
When Cavani starts leading the line more often, we'll score more scrappy goals and win fewer penalties.
Aubamayang can also dribble, but he has more variety in his game than any of our 3. He doesn't put himself into foulable situations on the edge of the box as often as Rashford/Martial/Greenwood, because he spends more time finding space in penalty area to actually score goals (up until this season, at least). Therefore, he's obviously going to draw fewer penalties than United's first choice lot.
When Mata and James played regularly, they didn't win penalties at anywhere near the same rate. So it obviously has more to do with the individuals than the team they play for.
It's akin to saying that positionally poor defenders need to make more tackles to compensate for being out of position more often. Wan Bissaka is the best tackler in the league, but he's also positionally suspect. That's not a conspiracy to pad Wan Bissaka's stats. It's a consequence of the way he plays football. There's also no conspiracy to pad Bruno's stats.
Our attack's strengths and weaknesses are exactly the same reasons why we're brilliant on the counter but shit at breaking a low block. We too often dribble from outside the box and play most of our football in front of opposition defences. It makes us easy to defend against... up until the point when one of those dribbles lead to a penalty.
When Cavani starts leading the line more often, we'll score more scrappy goals and win fewer penalties.
edcunited1878
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Premier League penalties received by Manchester United since 18/19 season (via transfermarkt):
18/19 - 12 received, 9 scored; 13.5% goals for were penalties
19/20 - 14 received, 10 scored; 15.1% goals for were penalties
20/21 - 4 received, 3 scored; 15.7% goals for are penalties
In the past ten season, United's previous high for penalties received was 11 in 11/12 (scored 9). So United are generating more penalties within the VAR era than not, but obviously there are a few other factors.
According to WhoScored, here's the goal % by set pieces and penalties (no idea how they classify a set piece goal, but probably a goal that resulted in a phase of play started by a set piece/dead ball restart):
18/19
- United: 32% - 21 goals (12 set pieces - 9 pens)
- Liverpool: 30% - 27 goals (20 - 7)
- Spurs: 30% - 20 goals (16 - 4)
- Chelsea: 22% - 15 goals (10 - 5)
- City: 15% - 14 goals (11 - 3)
19/20
- United: 27% - 18 goals (8 - 10)
- Liverpool: 26% - 22 goals (17 - 5)
- Chelsea: 26% - 18 goals (11 - 7)
- City: 23% - 23 goals (17 - 6)
- Spurs: 18% - 11 goals (8 - 3) *5 own goals accounted for 8% of total goals for!
At least in the PL, United's set piece/penalty goals for ratio is within reason when compared to other bigger teams. So I guess relying on goals is a good thing, no matter how they go into the net. Still counts the same. It's just how many times over the course of a season does it happen, and I think there's a fine line between quality of players, coaching, and the consistent output of goals.
Ideally, three of Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, and Bruno would score double digits in the league. Two of them would score over 15. And then a few players (e.g. Cavani, Pogba, not sure who else) scores more than 5 league goals. That's approximately 60 goals. Still isn't enough to seriously compete for the title.
18/19 - 12 received, 9 scored; 13.5% goals for were penalties
19/20 - 14 received, 10 scored; 15.1% goals for were penalties
20/21 - 4 received, 3 scored; 15.7% goals for are penalties
In the past ten season, United's previous high for penalties received was 11 in 11/12 (scored 9). So United are generating more penalties within the VAR era than not, but obviously there are a few other factors.
According to WhoScored, here's the goal % by set pieces and penalties (no idea how they classify a set piece goal, but probably a goal that resulted in a phase of play started by a set piece/dead ball restart):
18/19
- United: 32% - 21 goals (12 set pieces - 9 pens)
- Liverpool: 30% - 27 goals (20 - 7)
- Spurs: 30% - 20 goals (16 - 4)
- Chelsea: 22% - 15 goals (10 - 5)
- City: 15% - 14 goals (11 - 3)
19/20
- United: 27% - 18 goals (8 - 10)
- Liverpool: 26% - 22 goals (17 - 5)
- Chelsea: 26% - 18 goals (11 - 7)
- City: 23% - 23 goals (17 - 6)
- Spurs: 18% - 11 goals (8 - 3) *5 own goals accounted for 8% of total goals for!
At least in the PL, United's set piece/penalty goals for ratio is within reason when compared to other bigger teams. So I guess relying on goals is a good thing, no matter how they go into the net. Still counts the same. It's just how many times over the course of a season does it happen, and I think there's a fine line between quality of players, coaching, and the consistent output of goals.
Ideally, three of Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, and Bruno would score double digits in the league. Two of them would score over 15. And then a few players (e.g. Cavani, Pogba, not sure who else) scores more than 5 league goals. That's approximately 60 goals. Still isn't enough to seriously compete for the title.
Foxbatt
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The most difficult to defend is the near post corner. Simply because it could be flicked to the far post, and then back into the near post or centre or straight to goal or even goal from the near post. We always try a long high one to try to get Maguire to head it. I really wonder what they do during the training?
MiracleInMadrid
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My guess is that it is because it is significantly more difficult to execute the near post corner routine. First of all, the near post is usually heavy guarded, which means that the corner kick itself has to be very accurate, have a lot of pace and has to be timed perfectly with moving target. That is a lot of variables, and if just one isn't on point the corner routine won't work.The most difficult to defend is the near post corner. Simply because it could be flicked to the far post, and then back into the near post or centre or straight to goal or even goal from the near post. We always try a long high one to try to get Maguire to head it. I really wonder what they do during the training?
If you, on the other hand, put a floating ball in near the middle of the penalty box where the players already are, they will have a better chance of positioning themselves before the ball arrives.