Why is everyone so certain that DDG will be a starter under ETH?

Caesar2290

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On the interesting things I noticed on the caf recently is that most people predict that DDG will be the starting GK under ETH. I don't understand this logic. You either haven't watched ETH's teams or you vastly overstate DDG's abilities.

ETH's ideal keeper is someone who can comfortably play in the high line. He is there to initiate attacks and bypass the press via his distribution. He has to be proactive and sweep the balls played behind the high line in order to ease off the pressure on the defense.

DDG does not have a single attribute mentioned above. Not only is he a reactive GK that is glued to his line all the time, but his distribution is shocking. The only redeeming feature are his insane reflexes which in a dysfunctional team like ours make him stand out more than he should.

But if you've followed ETH, he religiously prefers goalkeepers with a better distribution over reflexes. Take Pasaveer as an example: he signed a 39 year old GK simply because of his distribution. Reflex wise he left a lot to be desired. Just look at that 2-2 vs Benfica. Same thing with Onana: he was prioritized due to him matching the above description, despite always having an error in him.

Personally I think barring a miracle DDG will warm the bench starting next season and Henderson will be our starting GK as he seem to posses some of the attributes I mentioned above.
 

roonster09

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Van Gaal wanted all that in a GK and still played DeGea as his first choice GK.

Pep loves player who are very comfortable on the ball and still played Otamendi as his first choice CB. He also had players like Alves, Lahm as his RB but signed Walker who has average technique.

Maybe managers are bit flexible in the philosophy and makes decisions based on lot of factors including available players.
 

LARulz

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Because we have almost every other position in a lot more urgent need to be fixed first.

If he is going to prioritise where he spends the funds to improve the squad, swapping out one of the best shot stoppers in the world because he can't ping it to a another player perfectly won't be high on that list when the players who he is meant to pass it to can't seem to do anything with it anyway
 

Mr. Ant

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If he won't play De Gea then for sure he won't play Henderson.
He's not good enough with ball at his feet either and De Gea is superior in almost everything else.
Henderson is maybe better at commanding the penalty box but he's not great at it also.

I doubt that David will be first choice in two years time but given the obvious signings we need to make upgrading the keepers won't be top priority this and maybe next summer as well.
 

bosnian_red

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There isn't that much between de Gea and Henderson on the ball but there is a lot between them in shot stopping. Yes Henderson is more active, but as he showed at United last year, not always to a benefit.
 

Caesar2290

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Van Gaal wanted all that in a GK and still played DeGea as his first choice GK.

Pep loves player who are very comfortable on the ball and still played Otamendi as his first choice CB. He also had players like Alves, Lahm as his RB but signed Walker who has average technique.

Maybe managers are bit flexible in the philosophy and makes decisions based on lot of factors including available players.
Van Gaal was around the Woodward time and the whole asset preservation program.

It's funny you mention Pep as being flexible in his approach, when the first thing he did when coming to City is to tell Joe Hart to pack his bags. :lol:
 

roonster09

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Van Gaal was around the Woodward time and the whole asset preservation program.

It's funny you mention Pep as being flexible in his approach, when the first thing he did when coming to City is to tell Joe Hart to pack his bags. :lol:
So him asking Joe Hart to leave means he isn't flexible? And we ignore all the other players who played who don't fit as typical pep player :lol:
 

Caesar2290

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If he won't play De Gea then for sure he won't play Henderson.
He's not good enough with ball at his feet either and De Gea is superior in almost everything else.
Henderson is maybe better at commanding the penalty box but he's not great at it also.

I doubt that David will be first choice in two years time but given the obvious signings we need to make upgrading the keepers won't be top priority this and maybe next summer as well.
There isn't that much between de Gea and Henderson on the ball but there is a lot between them in shot stopping. Yes Henderson is more active, but as he showed at United last year, not always to a benefit.
This isn't a De Gea vs Henderson thread, but rather a who will ETH play.

I struggle to think how will DDG fit into a high line. That proactive trait that Henderson has is pretty much a very big advantage over DDG. And if you think ETH compromises on his philosophy, then you don't know ETH.
 

Caesar2290

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So him asking Joe Hart to leave means he isn't flexible? And we ignore all the other players who played who don't fit as typical pep player :lol:
Yes, because this thread is about GKs specifically.

The point is the GK is a focal point of attack, hence why you can't be flexible. You can't buy him a partner GK or change the tactics to suit him. he either has it or he doesn't.

DDG is basically a Shay Given type of GK. Makes amazing saves and sucks at everything else.
 

Foxbatt

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Because as others have said the other positions are much more dire than the keeper. If he can replace 12 players he probably would replace DeGea.
But he can't so any one sensible would prioritise and keeper replacement is not a high priority compared to the other positions.
 

roonster09

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Yes, because this thread is about GKs specifically.

The point is the GK is a focal point of attack, hence why you can't be flexible. You can't buy him a partner GK or change the tactics to suit him. he either has it or he doesn't.

DDG is basically a Shay Given type of GK. Makes amazing saves and sucks at everything else.
This thread is about ETH and how rigid he is when it comes to philosophy(atleast that's how your OP sounded). People always do this, before new manager is appointed, then there are so many examples where manager does exactly opposite of what was predicted. Everyone thinks they know some manager in and out and comes up with "you don't know this manager if you think he will do xyz" posts.

GK are never focal point of attack, they play role to retain possession and play as extra outfield player to keep the ball moving, rarely they get chance to initiate the attack. They are not the focal point not attack, unless that word has different meaning.

Van Gaal was same with his philosophy, now that he played De Gea you added Woodward tag, as if Van Gaal would listen to anyone especially Woodward.

Oh and the same De Gea was proactive enough to leave the line and sweep under van Gaal.

If anyone had said Van Gaal would play Fellaini regularly, they would have been called all sort of names. Fast forward and he was reliable player for Van Gaal.
 
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I wonder is Onana still any good. Looks like he’s heading to inter on a free. I remember him being good with his feet
He's already signed and sealed for Inter. Maignan at AC went there for 15 million euros last summer and has been excellent, shame we kept Deano and didn't go for him, as I'd have said Dave would have ended up as second choice. Both Milan sides should be very well served by the keepers next season.
 

roonster09

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He's already signed and sealed for Inter. Maignan at AC went there for 15 million euros last summer and has been excellent, shame we kept Deano and didn't go for him, as I'd have said Dave would have ended up as second choice. Both Milan sides should be very well served by the keepers next season.
There are plenty of modern GKs playing for smaller clubs, doubt we will sign any this summer.
 

Andrew7582

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If De Gea is still starting for us 2 years from now then the ETH era will be failing, he simply will not be able to implement his philosophy and playing style properly with this guy in goal.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Well for people to not be confident of that ee actually have to sign a keeper who is good with the ball at feet.
 

roonster09

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Well for people to not be confident of that ee actually have to sign a keeper who is good with the ball at feet.
There are 0 rumours too on signing GK.

We are linked with players in every position except GK.
 

RedRonaldo

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Because we have lot of bigger problems elsewhere and we only have limited funds to spend this summer.
 

USREDEVIL

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Because we have almost every other position in a lot more urgent need to be fixed first.

If he is going to prioritise where he spends the funds to improve the squad, swapping out one of the best shot stoppers in the world because he can't ping it to a another player perfectly won't be high on that list when the players who he is meant to pass it to can't seem to do anything with it anyway
You’ve literally backslapped him with common sense. :lol:
 

Kramer

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Good thread.

I completely agree. De Gea is not good enough with the ball at his feet to be an ETH keeper. His distribution is woeful actually.

I don’t think we’ll be renewing his contract anymore under ETH and his days at United are numbered if ETH has his way.

But as others have said already. There are so many gaping holes to fix in this United squad, we will probably not have the money to invest in a new keeper this summer.

Hence, DDG will probably be a starter next year at least.
 

Adnan

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On the interesting things I noticed on the caf recently is that most people predict that DDG will be the starting GK under ETH. I don't understand this logic. You either haven't watched ETH's teams or you vastly overstate DDG's abilities.

ETH's ideal keeper is someone who can comfortably play in the high line. He is there to initiate attacks and bypass the press via his distribution. He has to be proactive and sweep the balls played behind the high line in order to ease off the pressure on the defense.

DDG does not have a single attribute mentioned above. Not only is he a reactive GK that is glued to his line all the time, but his distribution is shocking. The only redeeming feature are his insane reflexes which in a dysfunctional team like ours make him stand out more than he should.

But if you've followed ETH, he religiously prefers goalkeepers with a better distribution over reflexes. Take Pasaveer as an example: he signed a 39 year old GK simply because of his distribution. Reflex wise he left a lot to be desired. Just look at that 2-2 vs Benfica. Same thing with Onana: he was prioritized due to him matching the above description, despite always having an error in him.

Personally I think barring a miracle DDG will warm the bench starting next season and Henderson will be our starting GK as he seem to posses some of the attributes I mentioned above.
It's difficult to say what ten Hag will do but for us to evolve as a club, de Gea has to be upgraded sooner or later. And the player in the below clip is someone that has trained/played with our keepers and seems to think Henderson is comfortably the best with his feet, so let's see which route ten Hag takes, because I don't see us signing a GK in the summer window.

 

roonster09

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It's difficult to say what ten Hag will do but for us to evolve as a club, de Gea has to be upgraded sooner or later. And the player in the below clip is someone that has trained/played with our keepers and seems to think Henderson is comfortably the best with his feet, so let's see which route ten Hag takes, because I don't see us signing a GK in the summer window.

Yeah this will be probably the biggest chance for Henderson to win #1 position. We wont sign GK and Henderson is better at sweeping and commanding the box. So ETH might opt for Henderson and spend money to improve other positions.
 

Adnan

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Yeah this will be probably the biggest chance for Henderson to win #1 position. We wont sign GK and Henderson is better at sweeping and commanding the box. So ETH might opt for Henderson and spend money to improve other positions.
We don't need a GK with the options we have. We definitely should prioritise elsewhere. And this is the chance for Henderson to seize his opportunity. And it's up to him to show ten Hag that he's the correct profile of keeper to enhance the system in question. And i'm sure ten Hag will also attempt to coach de Gea to be better on the ball. And competition for places can only be a good thing.
 

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De Gea's distribution is not "shocking". I don't know when this myth originated but it's nonsense.

He was known for being good with the ball at his feet back in the day and is a relatively precise passer who is calm when in possession. He also finds a decent balance between when to kick long and when to pass short.

People conflate things. His general passiveness and unwillingness to come out of his area are confused with poor distribution. People also often fail to recognise that it's harder for DDG to pass it out than it is for other keepers because there are so few players moving around and finding space.

He doesn't have that greatest distribution in the world but it's not nearly the problem area some are making it out to be.
 

Bebestation

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I feel like we cannot see what our defensive weaknesses are with De Gea as the goalkeeper.

It's like defenders without a CDM - is it fair to blame all the problems on just the defenders?

What about a Goalkeeper that allows us no ability to play a high line even only at certain moments in a match. Should we blame that all on the defenders?

What about defenders that get beaten from corners, free kicks and crossing because our Goalkeeper is basically a Goalkeeper who doesn't use his hands?

Is it fair to blame all the defenders?

Now I'm not saying the defenders are perfect, but an all rounded goalkeeper (and a CDM) will show us exactly what our defending problems are on our back line.

Apparently Ten Hag can attack teams with 8 players at a time. Central defenders going on box to box like runs to take shots or pass.

Is De Gea sitting only ever on his line going to be a good balance for this?

A player with one world class ability - the same as Wan bissaka is arguably the best 1vs1 sliding tackler; but has no ability to help and get the best out their team mates the same way that AWB cannot cross to a striker.

I can sense that replacing De Gea may not be a priority - but this is purely due to transfer money we have. We can keep him but if we only ever use him, we will have no interlinking ability between the goalkeeper and his defenders. Hopefully Ten Hag either decides to get a new GK or if he wants to use money in other positions first; then let Henderson and De Gea fairly battle over the GK position. The best overall GK should take the spot and if its De Gea then fair enough let him start until one day he gets replaced.
 
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jackal&hyde

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Henderson is not that much better at the things you mention DDG is bad at. He's mostly more brave with coming out of the line but that will and has resulted in mistakes too.

Managers can also be flexible with the way they compensate qualities vs deficiencies.

Lastly, I see not reason why DDG could not get involved in a bit more of a short passing game. His main issue is long range accuracy but with training and build of experience, he could be used in a ETH system imo. Keep in mind that arguably with the exception of LVG, none of our managers really had a system for building from the back. More often then not the passes David receives are ones made in desperation rather then drilled and part of play.
 

VP89

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Van Gaal wanted all that in a GK and still played DeGea as his first choice GK.

Pep loves player who are very comfortable on the ball and still played Otamendi as his first choice CB. He also had players like Alves, Lahm as his RB but signed Walker who has average technique.

Maybe managers are bit flexible in the philosophy and makes decisions based on lot of factors including available players.
LVG didn't have a second choice like Henderson though. I think a lot of us may have forgotten how good he is. Hes not got the cat like reflexes of DDG but his distribution is mountains better. Assuming hes not one of the leaks and bad apples of course, I would be surprised if ETH didn't look at him.

That said I guess DDG is a very good shot stopper that it may trump everything else.
 

LARulz

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I feel like we cannot see what our defensive weaknesses are with De Gea as the goalkeeper.

It's like defenders without a CDM - is it fair to blame all the problems on just the defenders?

What about a Goalkeeper that allows us no ability to play a high line even only at certain moments in a match. Should we blame that all on the defenders?

What about defenders that get beaten from corners, free kicks and crossing because our Goalkeeper is basically a Goalkeeper who doesn't use his hands?

Is it fair to blame all the defenders?

Now I'm not saying the defenders are perfect, but an all rounded goalkeeper (and a CDM) will show us exactly what our defending problems are on our back line.

Apparently Ten Hag can attack teams with 8 players at a time. Central defenders going on box to box like runs to take shots or pass.

Is De Gea sitting only ever on his line going to be a good balance for this?

A player with one world class ability - the same as Wan bissaka is arguably the best 1vs1 sliding tackler; but has no ability to help and get the best out their team mates the same way that AWB cannot cross to a striker.

I can sense that replacing De Gea may not be a priority - but this is purely due to transfer money we have. We can keep him but if we only ever use him, we will have no interlinking ability between the goalkeeper and his defenders. Hopefully Ten Hag either decides to get a new GK or if he wants to use money in other positions first; then let Henderson and De Gea fairly battle over the GK position. The best overall GK should take the spot and if its De Gea then fair enough let him start until one day he gets replaced.
How is De Gea being blamed for Maguire and co not knowing which way is up? Their positional play, getting dribble passed and not tracking their men has nothing to do with if De Gea comes off his line or can pass a ball. We don't need Allison or Ederson in goal to realise where the main problems in the team are and need addressing

We are losing a lot of players this summer, mostly squad players, but we were already lacking in quality first reamers. Getting rid of De Gea right now makes no sense
 

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Despite his Hollywood saves after more than 10 years at the club he still can't dominate his 5 yard box. So that is an issue regardless of Maguire and Lindelof
 

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He is literally the least of our worries. I do think he will be replaced at some stage (if his distribution doesn’t improve and he doesn’t come off his line more) but it won’t be ETH priority when we’re leaking goals like we are and have no midfield and rely on Ronaldo for goals. This squad is basically fecked and without DE Gea were further down the league. We also haven’t seen him with a solid midfield and defence infront of him. He deserves to have a shot in a structured and solid united squad.
 

sparx99

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I could see De Gea being one of those controversial issues early on. Similar to how Pep got a lot of flak for dropping Aguero at City.

I think they’ll work with De Gea in the summer to try and get him 15-20 yards off his line and his general command of the area. But at his age it’s going to be very difficult it change set habits.

I do think his first touch and general technique is good enough to play as a sweeper keeper. Maybe he can’t quite hit the passes Ederson does but 99% of keepers can’t. With better defenders, better positional play in front of him and ETH’s passing angles it should help De Gea play out. He’s certainly capable of playing 15 yard passes.
 

flappyjay

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Hes not got the cat like reflexes of DDG but his distribution is mountains better.
That would mean Henderson has Edersons on the ball abilities. I remember him being to eager to sweep and being slightly better than de Gea at passing. Same with his commanding of the box he tries but he is not good at it either. Fair to him trying to excel at things de Gea is poor at.
 

Bocca9978

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DDG has been our best player over the last ten years. Which is shocking in itself.
He should be the last of ten Hag’s problems.
And with the budget not being endless, we won’t be spending on a new keeper.
 

gajender

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That would mean Henderson has Edersons on the ball abilities. I remember him being to eager to sweep and being slightly better than de Gea at passing. Same with his commanding of the box he tries but he is not good at it either. Fair to him trying to excel at things de Gea is poor at.
I believe Henderson was way too eager to impress and was trying really hard to distinguish himself from DeGea and ended up overdoing few things but if he is given fair chance he would calm down a bit and could be useful in what would be another transition period under New Manager .

I just feel he shouldn't be sold or loaned without bringing in Somebody to replace De Gea , I can just see De Gea being even bigger liability under New Regime as it's really hard for somebody to fundamentally alter their game so late in their Career .
 

CM10

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De Gea's distribution is not "shocking". I don't know when this myth originated but it's nonsense.

He was known for being good with the ball at his feet back in the day and is a relatively precise passer who is calm when in possession. He also finds a decent balance between when to kick long and when to pass short.

People conflate things. His general passiveness and unwillingness to come out of his area are confused with poor distribution. People also often fail to recognise that it's harder for DDG to pass it out than it is for other keepers because there are so few players moving around and finding space.

He doesn't have that greatest distribution in the world but it's not nearly the problem area some are making it out to be.
The amount of times he kicks the ball into touch when the ball is played back to him would suggest otherwise. I don't remember him being this bad with the ball at his feet when Van Gaal was here (could just be bad memory) but I would hope Ten Hag could coach him to be a bit better in this regard.

Still, De Gea will need replacing eventually. It's no coincidence that he wasn't even able to make the last Spain squad. Enrique wants keepers who suit possession style football and if he's choosing players like Robert Sanchez and David Raya over De Gea, that's a huge indication that he's not up to task.
 

sullydnl

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My logic is:

We won't be signing a first choice goalkeeper this summer due to the need to prioritise other positions.

Henderson will be unwilling to stay unless he's guaranteed to be first choice this season.

Henderson himself only fits ETH's ideal mold of a goalkeeper relative to De Gea. If De Gea wasn't here, we'd be questioning Henderson's suitability as well.

Therefore it's a choice between sticking with De Gea for now and perhaps raising funds by selling Henderson or immediately dropping De Gea and backing Henderson as #1 despite his own flaws. Of the two options, I think the former is more likely.

Obviously De Gea doesn't suit ETH and will need to be replaced at some point. But I suspect it won't be this summer and won't be by Henderson.
 

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LVG didn't have a second choice like Henderson though. I think a lot of us may have forgotten how good he is. Hes not got the cat like reflexes of DDG but his distribution is mountains better. Assuming hes not one of the leaks and bad apples of course, I would be surprised if ETH didn't look at him.

That said I guess DDG is a very good shot stopper that it may trump everything else.
More like we never learned how good he is, mostly cause he is not that good. Even Romero was miles better.