Why is everyone so certain that DDG will be a starter under ETH?

devips

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Can't wait for this new keeper who does all the defending for the team :drool:
No, I wait for the keeper who plays as if he is an integral part of the defence. De Gea is not that keeper,
 

mitchmouse

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I am not certain. I presume it but would not be massively surprised if it was no the case. DDG has been back to his best as a shot stopper but still isn't brave enough for my liking, doesn't dominate his area at all and his distribution/sweeping hasn't improved at all. If Henderson stays and is given a chance, DDG might struggle
 

kthanksbye

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He'll start next season, unless ETH has a keeper in mind who is available for cheap, I don't think we'll have the capacity to make so many signings.
He will get better with his passing, when the outfield players get better with their first touch and start making themselves available.
 

James Peril

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Yawn, here we go again. First of all, we are not just going to play the football ETH wants us to play - he needs to adapt to the Premier League too. He has only coached in a very poor Dutch league, this is something else entirely. You expect a high pressing team and goals galore from day 1? Guess again, that’s never going to be done quickly. Remember when we all expected Rangnick to bring that stuff? I am still waiting, the team isn’t suited for it and that brings us to the most pressing issue. LB, RB, CB, DM, CM, RW, ST - those are all positions we need to fill before even thinking about goalkeeper.

Too much emphasis is placed on the modern GK, but if you watch Liverpool it’s not like Allison is constantly involved and making sick passes through the blocks. Actually, it’s quite rare, it’s much more important if the CB does it, and that’s where we struggle too. Ederson could have saved the header yesterday and I wonder if DDG would have, but now a GK is judged on ability to pass a ball to a midfielder. Jeesh
 

NoPace

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Nail on the head. Just getting rid of just one of our GKs plus wages should pay for this lad longterm.
In addition to Sanchez, could see Emiliano Martinez working out as he seems to sweep well and has a comical level of arrogance so probably up for a big move and you'd think could handle it without shrinking.
 

Trequartistry

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De Gea's distribution is not "shocking". I don't know when this myth originated but it's nonsense.

He was known for being good with the ball at his feet back in the day and is a relatively precise passer who is calm when in possession. He also finds a decent balance between when to kick long and when to pass short.

People conflate things. His general passiveness and unwillingness to come out of his area are confused with poor distribution. People also often fail to recognise that it's harder for DDG to pass it out than it is for other keepers because there are so few players moving around and finding space.

He doesn't have that greatest distribution in the world but it's not nearly the problem area some are making it out to be.
going to assume this is a troll post

De Gea is 15th in the league with 37% with launched passes from GK. Long passes in open play he's 48%.

his successful pass percentage in the UCL group stages this season was 72%, ranked 33rd out of all goalkeepers played in the UCL this season.

We’ve now seen multiple United players complain about his passing including Lindelof Maguire Ronaldo and Pogba on the field this season

We’ve seen multiple attacks from opposition started from De Gea needlessly losing ball. If you watch an Allison or a Ramsdale perhaps you’d understand the difference and how much it helps
 
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I think like Pep did at City with Hart, ETH will give De Gea a chance if he doesn't like what he sees he will get rid.
 

Crashoutcassius

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Premiership is a lot harder than Holland. We are going to be under a lot more pressure a lot more often than Ajax. And much more so from set pieces (which might be Henderson too btw). It will be different just like it was for saint pep
 

Red Dreams

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ETH sounds like a guy who will look at players who will suit the system he wants to use.
Think Henderson will get a fair look in.
The one advantage of the Europa league is players who are not established first teamers have a chance to prove themselves.
 

Caesar2290

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ETH sounds like a guy who will look at players who will suit the system he wants to use.
Think Henderson will get a fair look in.
The one advantage of the Europa league is players who are not established first teamers have a chance to prove themselves.
Problem is ETH doesn't do proving matches. He will play the starting XI pretty much every match and slightly rotate based on injuries/fatigue.

Maybe McLaren can whisper in his ear that the EPL needs lots of rotation because of the amount of fixtures, but as things stand if you prove yourself to ETH you will play most matches, including B tier canon fodder ones.
 

lex talionis

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Yawn, here we go again. First of all, we are not just going to play the football ETH wants us to play - he needs to adapt to the Premier League too. He has only coached in a very poor Dutch league, this is something else entirely. You expect a high pressing team and goals galore from day 1? Guess again, that’s never going to be done quickly. Remember when we all expected Rangnick to bring that stuff? I am still waiting, the team isn’t suited for it and that brings us to the most pressing issue. LB, RB, CB, DM, CM, RW, ST - those are all positions we need to fill before even thinking about goalkeeper.

Too much emphasis is placed on the modern GK, but if you watch Liverpool it’s not like Allison is constantly involved and making sick passes through the blocks. Actually, it’s quite rare, it’s much more important if the CB does it, and that’s where we struggle too. Ederson could have saved the header yesterday and I wonder if DDG would have, but now a GK is judged on ability to pass a ball to a midfielder. Jeesh
A sensible post. The notion of a "modern goalkeeper" is trendy, but in the end the primary responsibility of a keeper is to make saves and there's no better keeper on the planet at that particular skill than De Gea, who is held here by some to be the antithesis of a modern goalkeeper. But if we go back over De Gea's performances this season we'll find more than a few saves he made that Allison and Ederson could not have made. I still rate Allison as the better keeper overall, but De Gea is better than Ederson. All three quality keepers, without question, but Dave is the best of the three in shot stopping although I would like to see him improve his game on crosses. Concerns about his distribution are vastly overblown. We need our defenders to do a better job of distribution, whether it's the CBs breaking through the lines or fullbacks on their crosses.
 

Foxbatt

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A sensible post. The notion of a "modern goalkeeper" is trendy, but in the end the primary responsibility of a keeper is to make saves and there's no better keeper on the planet at that particular skill than De Gea, who is held here by some to be the antithesis of a modern goalkeeper. But if we go back over De Gea's performances this season we'll find more than a few saves he made that Allison and Ederson could not have made. I still rate Allison as the better keeper overall, but De Gea is better than Ederson. All three quality keepers, without question, but Dave is the best of the three in shot stopping although I would like to see him improve his game on crosses. Concerns about his distribution are vastly overblown. We need our defenders to do a better job of distribution, whether it's the CBs breaking through the lines or fullbacks on their crosses.
A sensible post. Too much emphasis is being put on the keeper passing the ball. But at United to whom? Whoever receives the ball is going to lose it anyway.
 

Idxomer

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I don't know how many times that need to be repeated but De Gea's passing is far from being his only problem.
 

Josep Dowling

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Probably because we are losing half our squad this summer. Can’t see us trying to get a goalie as well.
 

Seveneric

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It's hilarious (and nonsensical) how some posters seem to believe ETH will do things a certain way and will stick to that method without compromising or accounting for United's current situation.
 

VP89

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It's hilarious (and nonsensical) how some posters seem to believe ETH will do things a certain way and will stick to that method without compromising or accounting for United's current situation.
If ETH thinks Henderson suits his system better, hel choose him. I dont think its that complicated.
 

Mr Pigeon

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He'll start next season, unless ETH has a keeper in mind who is available for cheap, I don't think we'll have the capacity to make so many signings.
He will get better with his passing, when the outfield players get better with their first touch and start making themselves available.
I think he'll get better too. I'm not saying he's amazing with crosses now but remember when he first came here and he would flap at anything lobbed towards him? I wouldn't be surprised if his training for the past few years has been purely shot stopping and very little about improving his communication skills or the other issues you mentioned. He's not really been coached by a manager up to now who has expected us to start play from the back, and our coaching set up has been woeful anyway.
 

Red Dreams

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Problem is ETH doesn't do proving matches. He will play the starting XI pretty much every match and slightly rotate based on injuries/fatigue.

Maybe McLaren can whisper in his ear that the EPL needs lots of rotation because of the amount of fixtures, but as things stand if you prove yourself to ETH you will play most matches, including B tier canon fodder ones.
Lets see how the first season pans out with ETH, hopefully with Glazers backing the man fully.
 

lex talionis

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A sensible post. Too much emphasis is being put on the keeper passing the ball. But at United to whom? Whoever receives the ball is going to lose it anyway.
This is a genuine concern. Our fullback play has been mediocre at best, and arguably horrifying. We know about Maguire, but you generally don't want to see a keeper passing the ball to his CBs. And surely there must be consensus here that McFred are not up to the job they've been tasked with. We really need to address the outfield X before we even think of ditching De Gea.
 

city-puma

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I think he might not be the starting GK under ETH. He has been exposed many times during Ole era that our buildup from back suffers a lot due to his panic ball handling.
 

Ace

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Areas of our team that need addressing before goalkeeper:
-Defense
-Midfield
-Forward
 

Bebestation

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It's interesting - Ten Hag apparently has a team that is constantly repositioning to open up spaces and make passes.

A goalkeeper that doesnt even come off his line in such a team is going to stand out a bit.
 

cyril C

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Simple, when you have 5-6 positions to worry about, dozen players to replace, why touch your most reliable position?

The same argument is on Bruno, is he absolutely reliable? No, but he is your least worry, so build a team around him to compliment his strength and cover his ass.

If everything work to plan, that is 3 seasons from now, then perhaps someone prefer a keeper that can speak English, or a CB that can speak French.
 

gajender

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Simple, when you have 5-6 positions to worry about, dozen players to replace, why touch your most reliable position?

The same argument is on Bruno, is he absolutely reliable? No, but he is your least worry, so build a team around him to compliment his strength and cover his ass.

If everything work to plan, that is 3 seasons from now, then perhaps someone prefer a keeper that can speak English, or a CB that can speak French.
Great plan keep burying our head in the sand stuff , United have bought so many defenders over the years but have always looked vulnerable and shaky at back no matter who we have played only constant amidst this chaos has been you guessed it right your Mr reliable De Gea .
Its about time that we change our Strategy a bit and get a better All round keeper before wasting money on another Center Back .
 

RVN1991

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Great plan keep burying our head in the sand stuff , United have bought so many defenders over the years but have always looked vulnerable and shaky at back no matter who we have played only constant amidst this chaos has been you guessed it right your Mr reliable De Gea .
Its about time that we change our Strategy a bit and get a better All round keeper before wasting money on another Center Back .
De Gea isn't the reason Maguire moves like a tree, Bailly, Varane and Jones can't stay healthy and lindelof, Rojo Blind are average at best.
 

Foxbatt

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Great plan keep burying our head in the sand stuff , United have bought so many defenders over the years but have always looked vulnerable and shaky at back no matter who we have played only constant amidst this chaos has been you guessed it right your Mr reliable De Gea .
Its about time that we change our Strategy a bit and get a better All round keeper before wasting money on another Center Back .
Because a keeper's number one priority is to stop the ball going into the net.
Not trying to pass the ball to an outfield player who can't control the ball.
We can have Ederson in goal and it's going to worse because he can pass but then our players are going to lose possession in dangerous areas for sure. He is also not going to stop some goals DeGea is saving.
Does it matter where he saves it? On the penalty spot, 6 yard area or on the goal line? So long as he saves it.
 

MadDogg

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Because a keeper's number one priority is to stop the ball going into the net.
Not trying to pass the ball to an outfield player who can't control the ball.
We can have Ederson in goal and it's going to worse because he can pass but then our players are going to lose possession in dangerous areas for sure. He is also not going to stop some goals DeGea is saving.
Does it matter where he saves it? On the penalty spot, 6 yard area or on the goal line? So long as he saves it.
How many goals do we concede because De Gea refuses to come out for crosses? How many goals do we concede because De Gea sits so deep, leaving far too much space between him and the defence for the opposition to run into? How many goals do we concede because De Gea is pretty much the quietest goalkeeper around, not helping organise the defence at all despite having the best view in the house? How many goals do we concede because De Gea constantly gives the ball straight back to the opposition?

De Gea is a fantastic shot-stopper, but he is terrible at basically every other aspect of being a goalkeeper. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if the goals we concede because of his limitations outweigh the amount of goals he saves that the average goalkeeper wouldn't. Meanwhile we'd also probably have more control of matches and be scoring more goals if we had a goalkeeper who had the ability and the positioning to help in the build-up.
 

Revaulx

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He'll start next season, unless ETH has a keeper in mind who is available for cheap, I don't think we'll have the capacity to make so many signings.
He will get better with his passing, when the outfield players get better with their first touch and start making themselves available.
Yes I agree. He had no problem with this when he had Blind ahead of him.

I’m still of the opinion that his staying routed to his line isn’t helpful to the defence; and wonder whether he’s too set in his ways to change that.
 

RedDevil@84

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I think writing a paragraph about what De Gea lacks as a modern keeper and then bring up Henderson as the suitable replacement, just makes the whole post pointless.
 

JB7

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I think writing a paragraph about what De Gea lacks as a modern keeper and then bring up Henderson as the suitable replacement, just makes the whole post pointless.
As I've said multiple times I'm really not sure on Henderson as the long term option, but this rhetoric is just ridiculous - it's not a case of being a modern goalkeeper it's a case of doing the basics of goalkeeping which you are taught as a child such as dealing with crosses and dealing with balls in behind your defenders, which De Gea just doesn't do. The statistics just don't back up the view that Henderson is this very poor goalkeeper that people make him out to be - almost as if our vastly superior defensive record with him in goal last year was completely irrelevant.

To compare the two (PL only);
De Gea this season has dealt with 3.1% of crosses into the box, Henderson dealt with 8.6% last season.
De Gea this season has swept outside the area 0.22 times per game, Henderson swept 1.12 times per game last season.
De Gea this season has thrown the ball out 112 times in 34 games, Henderson threw the ball out 61 times last season in just 12.5 games which would suggest Henderson see's an opportunity for a breakaway much more often.
There isn't a lot to choose in the passing stats between the two.

Even the shot stopping statistics aren't as widely different as people would think, De Gea is at +8.3 on the post-shot xG statistic, whereas in Henderson's full season of PL football at Sheffield United his was +5.2 which would be the third highest in the PL this season behind Jose Sa and De Gea. For the record De Gea's three seasons prior to this have been +0.1, +2.1 and +0.1.

I just don't see how a manager who very clearly likes to play a high line can persist with a goalkeeper who has dealt with 9 crosses and swept behind his defenders 8 times in nearly an entire season.
 

WolfInSharp'sClothing

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Any keeper in the world is going to look dodgy with Maguire leading the defense ahead of him, and McFred shielding that same defense.
Maybe. But Maguire is a still a good player, who is having his worst ever season and is suffering from a massive crisis of confidence at present.

You could argue that swapping the defenders in front of De Gea could improve performances. But how many times has that been done already and not worked?

What's going to have the most impact? Keeping everything the same but trying (again) to bring in a better standard of player? Or changing how you try and play?

The example of Pep binning off Joe Hart for a combination of Caballero and Bravo has been brought up. On paper, at the time, those two were worse goalkeepers than Hart. But they were key to how Pep wanted to play. They conceded fewer goals and scored more goals as a team in the league, with more or less the same defence. The spine was sorted first and everything around that second.

For example, if you changed nothing else and spent all of your reported £200m budget on a proper defensive midfield player, a goalkeeper more suited to how Ten Hag likes to play, a box to box number 8 and a left footed right forward to replace Greenwood, I think it has the most impact of any changes you could make.

Three of those are maybe Ajax players! Alvarez, Gravenberch and Antony.

You could argue that a proper defensive midfielder would help the defence and De Gea play better too, which is probably correct. But I don't think it has the same impact as wholesale changes to 2 elements of the team's spine.

People saying that Ten Hag should be able to work with De Gea for now until he finds a suitable replacement. But any manager in the world should be able to 'get by' with a £200m back 4 of Wan-Bissaka, Shaw, Maguire and Varane!!

Sort out what's directly behind that back 4 and what's directly in front of it and you might be pleasantly surprised just how good a back 4 it could be.
 

Abraxas

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I didn't think Dean Henderson was particularly great in any capacity when he stepped in. You can talk about passing, sweeping all you want but overall he wasn't fantastic at being a goalkeeper. Nothing really stood out at this level and he had a mistake in him too.

I'm not certain though, none of the players should be guaranteed a place. It's for ETH to come in and assess on merit and suitability, not reputation.
 

Caesar2290

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Because a keeper's number one priority is to stop the ball going into the net.
Not trying to pass the ball to an outfield player who can't control the ball.
We can have Ederson in goal and it's going to worse because he can pass but then our players are going to lose possession in dangerous areas for sure. He is also not going to stop some goals DeGea is saving.
Does it matter where he saves it? On the penalty spot, 6 yard area or on the goal line? So long as he saves it.
Is it now? We had the likes of Shay Given and Brad Friedel back in the day who were twice the shot stopper VDS was and yet I doubt you'd find a single United fan who would have swapped VDS for any of those 2.

It's as if there is more to the GK game than just "GK" saves. You know that positioning and orginasation both play a huge role in how defensive unit functions.

How many goals do we concede because De Gea refuses to come out for crosses? How many goals do we concede because De Gea sits so deep, leaving far too much space between him and the defence for the opposition to run into? How many goals do we concede because De Gea is pretty much the quietest goalkeeper around, not helping organise the defence at all despite having the best view in the house? How many goals do we concede because De Gea constantly gives the ball straight back to the opposition?

De Gea is a fantastic shot-stopper, but he is terrible at basically every other aspect of being a goalkeeper. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if the goals we concede because of his limitations outweigh the amount of goals he saves that the average goalkeeper wouldn't. Meanwhile we'd also probably have more control of matches and be scoring more goals if we had a goalkeeper who had the ability and the positioning to help in the build-up.
Stuff you mentioned does my head in. We have the likes of Wan Bissaka who is one of the best 1 vs 1 fullbacks in the world, yet fans lambast him as an incredibly limited one trick pony that is holding our attack back. And yet when DDG has the exact same limitations it's called being good at the basics.

Technically Wan Bissaka is also good at the basics, except modern day fullbacks have a much more focal point in attack, but so do the GKs. More modern coaches like Pep and Klopp both seem to have embraced this notion, yet it seems hopelessly lost on our fanbase who still view Dave as an untouchable figure that bailed us out(deservedly for some of the seasons) and yet fail to acknowledge that one of the reasons our defense was so poor in the post Fergie era is because we had him at the bedrock of it for the past decade.
 

Caesar2290

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As I've said multiple times I'm really not sure on Henderson as the long term option, but this rhetoric is just ridiculous - it's not a case of being a modern goalkeeper it's a case of doing the basics of goalkeeping which you are taught as a child such as dealing with crosses and dealing with balls in behind your defenders, which De Gea just doesn't do. The statistics just don't back up the view that Henderson is this very poor goalkeeper that people make him out to be - almost as if our vastly superior defensive record with him in goal last year was completely irrelevant.

To compare the two (PL only);
De Gea this season has dealt with 3.1% of crosses into the box, Henderson dealt with 8.6% last season.
De Gea this season has swept outside the area 0.22 times per game, Henderson swept 1.12 times per game last season.
De Gea this season has thrown the ball out 112 times in 34 games, Henderson threw the ball out 61 times last season in just 12.5 games which would suggest Henderson see's an opportunity for a breakaway much more often.
There isn't a lot to choose in the passing stats between the two.

Even the shot stopping statistics aren't as widely different as people would think, De Gea is at +8.3 on the post-shot xG statistic, whereas in Henderson's full season of PL football at Sheffield United his was +5.2 which would be the third highest in the PL this season behind Jose Sa and De Gea. For the record De Gea's three seasons prior to this have been +0.1, +2.1 and +0.1.

I just don't see how a manager who very clearly likes to play a high line can persist with a goalkeeper who has dealt with 9 crosses and swept behind his defenders 8 times in nearly an entire season.
Exactly. Henderson might not be Peter Schmeichel or VDS, but he is better than DDG at literally every single GK aspect bar shot stopping. And even then people exagerate that he is some kind of Taibi.
 

Idxomer

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Look at the difference between the two keepers and tell me this team doesn't need a new one.
 

Carl

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Look at the difference between the two keepers and tell me this team doesn't need a new one.
Does anyone even argue this point outside of a tiny few? It's obvious we do, it's just we have many far greater needs.
 

Idxomer

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Does anyone even argue this point outside of a tiny few? It's obvious we do, it's just we have many far greater needs.
I would argue we have essential needs in every area of the pitch including goalkeeping and it doesn't matter much which ones we'll get to first.