Why Pep's Barcelona and Zidane's Real aren't comparable

matbezlima

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Both Pep's Barcelona and Zidane's Real are historical teams that became so historical, memorable and remarkable for very different, sometimes opposite, reasons. That's why comparing both ultimately does not make much sense. Pep's Barcelona had a more lasting effect in the game and looked unbeatable in their best matches, pushing football to its highest technical level.

Zidane's Madrid was a different case. What defined that Real team was ultimately their mentality and competitive edge to score and get the result even when playing badly and under big pressure, such as both legs against Bayern in 2018 (Bayern clearly superior in both games, though they weren't technically great games anyway, and still losing due to Real taking advantage of Rafinha and Ulreich's terrible mistakes, not unlike Karius' two blunders in the final) and the second leg against Juventus also in 2018. Their decline had clearly started already, their football was unconvincing and they were 17 points behind Barcelona in La Liga. The winning mentality of a club made to win, fated, almost doomed to win at times, of the UCL king, was still as strong as ever though. It's admirable.

Xavi once said that he envied how Real could get the needed results even when outplayed and playing badly, this is something that Real has more than any other club. And the UCL is Real's big playground, they can win it even if playing badly in most of the games in the season, such as their last season. In the 2015-2016, Zidane had assumed only in the middle of the season and Real had the easiest CL run ever and even then their football was never really good and convincing in that 2016 UCL KO. Barcelona and Bayern had been playing the best football in Europe throughout almost the entire 2015/2016 season. When it comes to pure quality and technical level, though, Zidane's Real was truly at its prime in the 2016-2017 season. They were really great. Not peak Pep's Barcelona level, but still very high quality and best team in the world. Considering all of this, the fact that Real was the club able to win 3 consecutive titles despite some previous squads being more brilliant than them feels fitting and right, inevitable. Zidane's Real is defined by Thanos' quote: "I am inevitable". Their motto was winning at the big stage no matter what.

To make my point clear, I'm not really putting one team above the other, I'm just saying that their differences mean that what made both go in history forever is different and both have their place, you cam't say that one is really significantly superior, more relevant or important in football history than the other. Like the Ajax from the 70s and Bayern from the 70s.
 
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adexkola

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This writeup is why when I seize power and become Supreme Dictator, I will ban non-champions from the CL.

In those 4 years that Real won the CL (fantastic), they won the league only once (abysmal). And no, I don't want to hear anything about how Zidane would have won the league in his first season if not for Benitez.

For all the flack Barcelona receive and have received, they have proved that they've been the best team in Spain on aggregate and at each team's peak. What's Barcelona's record in El Classicos during Pep's time? Ditto for Zidane? There you go.
 

matbezlima

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This writeup is why when I seize power and become Supreme Dictator, I will ban non-champions from the CL.

In those 4 years that Real won the CL (fantastic), they won the league only once (abysmal). And no, I don't want to hear anything about how Zidane would have won the league in his first season if not for Benitez.

For all the flack Barcelona receive and have received, they have proved that they've been the best team in Spain on aggregate and at each team's peak. What's Barcelona's record in El Classicos during Pep's time? Ditto for Zidane? There you go.
A weird case was Bayern in the 70s. They won the Bundesliga in 72, 73 and 74. UCL in 74, 75 and 76. In 76 they finished third place in Bundesliga and in 75 they finished in tenth place and even fought against relegation! They also were victim of some embarrassing big defeats, like the 4-1 defeat against Borussia Monchengladbach, the team that dominated Bundesliga while Bayern dominated Europe.
 
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adexkola

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A weird case was Bayern in the 70s. They won the Bundesliga in 72, 73 and 74. UCL in 74, 75 and 76. In 76 they finished third place in Bundesliga and in 75 they finished in tenth place and even fought against relegation!
You know what, Bayern and Real are special cases. I do think that if you win the trophy you have more of a right to be in the competition next year than any other team in Europe.

But then under my regime that would only leave Real with 1 CL trophy in this period. *evil laugh*
 

adexkola

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To give an olive branch out, there is something to be said about Real's ability to find a way to win despite the circumstances, in the CL. Barcelona won at their best but found it hard to push through when the circumstances were tilted against them somewhat.
 

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Pep's Barca got knocked out by the worst CL winner of the past 10 years, also by Mou's Inter and they lost a League title to Mou's Madrid too.
On top of that they don't win that 2009 CL without the ref feck-ups against Chelsea
They were perhaps the most enjoyable/highest peak a team has reached but they weren't invincibles, far from it.
 

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Pep's Barca got knocked out by the worst CL winner of the past 10 years, also by Mou's Inter and they lost a League title to Mou's Madrid too.
On top of that they don't win that 2009 CL without the ref feck-ups against Chelsea
They were perhaps the most enjoyable/highest peak a team has reached but they weren't invincibles, far from it.
Madrid's game in 2017 vs Bayern will rival that. a phoney red card to Vidal plus 2 blatant offside goals all at Bernabeu
 

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This writeup is why when I seize power and become Supreme Dictator, I will ban non-champions from the CL.

In those 4 years that Real won the CL (fantastic), they won the league only once (abysmal). And no, I don't want to hear anything about how Zidane would have won the league in his first season if not for Benitez.

For all the flack Barcelona receive and have received, they have proved that they've been the best team in Spain on aggregate and at each team's peak. What's Barcelona's record in El Classicos during Pep's time? Ditto for Zidane? There you go.
I agree. For me, as great as Madrid's recent CL successes are, domestic dominance over the course of the entire season and multiple such seasons, is the first pre condition to complete greatness, for me. Champions League success coupled with domestic domination then completes the set. Real would consistently be second fiddle in the league over the course of the year and then win the CL. A lot of glory but slightly misleading and it lacks something.
 

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Pep's Barca got knocked out by the worst CL winner of the past 10 years, also by Mou's Inter and they lost a League title to Mou's Madrid too.
On top of that they don't win that 2009 CL without the ref feck-ups against Chelsea
They were perhaps the most enjoyable/highest peak a team has reached but they weren't invincibles, far from it.
The decisions against Barca in that Inter tie were easily worse than the Chelsea decisions, because some of those penalty claims Chelsea fans never shut up about are completely made up. Can't talk about one as having a material influence on the results (and therefore the legacy) and not talk about others equally.
 

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This writeup is why when I seize power and become Supreme Dictator, I will ban non-champions from the CL.

In those 4 years that Real won the CL (fantastic), they won the league only once (abysmal). And no, I don't want to hear anything about how Zidane would have won the league in his first season if not for Benitez.

For all the flack Barcelona receive and have received, they have proved that they've been the best team in Spain on aggregate and at each team's peak. What's Barcelona's record in El Classicos during Pep's time? Ditto for Zidane? There you go.
Agreed. Barcelona were so good back then. They were not totally unbeatable but they were close.

By comparison Madrid were comprehensively beaten domestically during their run, and the quality of the Champions League has been in the absolute doldrums recently. Fair play to them for capitalising on that, but they were not a match for the truly great sides.
 

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I don't think any team has enjoyed as much collective luck in a tournament as much as Real Madrid in the CL.

There must be at least 10 better teams to have won the CL but that mob have - with the help of goalkeeper howlers, penalties at the right time, easy draws and favorable refs - somehow won three-in-a-row.
 

BalanceUnAutreJoint

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Madrid's game in 2017 vs Bayern will rival that. a phoney red card to Vidal plus 2 blatant offside goals all at Bernabeu
Bayern had a lot of calls in their favor too. Vidal should have been sent off far earlier than he did, your 2nd goal was blatanly offside and without it there would be no extra time for Ronaldo to score 2 offside goals
+ ghost penalty in the first leg.
 

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Going through all the games of Pep's Barca and Zidane's Madrid, the most iconic one, an immortal game, is the 5-0 clasico. Different planet.

 

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The decisions against Barca in that Inter tie were easily worse than the Chelsea decisions, because some of those penalty claims Chelsea fans never shut up about are completely made up. Can't talk about one as having a material influence on the results (and therefore the legacy) and not talk about others equally.
Like the card against Inter for the "foul" on Pedro I believe it was? The infamous peaking from his hands as he rolled around.
 

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Yeah that 5-0 win in 2010/2011 was just mesmerising and iconic. Going into that Clasico, RM had an unbeaten record in all competitions that season (something like 20 games). Even though Messi didn't get on the score-sheet, he was at his creative best, as were Iniesta and Xavi (who did score).

Another impressive aspect of Guardiola's Barcelona reign, was the unbeaten record in Clasicos at the Bernabeu with 5 wins and 2 draws from 7 games. One of those draws virtually guaranteed them the La Liga title in 2011, and the other was in the Supercopa giving them the advantage ahead of the 2nd leg at the Camp Nou.
 

Champagne Football

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The difference is that Barca spent a grand total of ZERO on Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Messi, Puyol

Whereas Madrid spent vast fortunes on Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema, Modric and Kroos
 

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Winning 3 CLs in a row in its current format is probably the best achievement in club football history, they weren't technically as good as other historically great teams but they had better mentality than any other team for those games. They won it in 2016 and people called it luck because of the draw, then they did it two more times with nightmare draws and somehow it is still luck? They just never crumbled no matter how tough it got and knew how to manage the periods within a game perfectly as they were always 100% certain they'd have their moment. The amount of times that team had the momentum of the tie completely against them and still managed to pull through was unbelievable.

They were there for the decisive moments of the competition for pretty much a full decade, luck evens out when that's the case. 2014/15 they were probably playing their best football out of any of those years until a big injury crisis hit, 2012/13 they go to the final if the game lasts a few minutes more, 2011/12 they get knocked out in the semis on penalties, 2010/11 they were second best but there was the Pepe red and the Higuain disallowed goal that killed any of the chances they should have had... even in the league they somehow only won it once and were always 1/2/3 points off at the end of the season, 2013/14 they were clearly the best team in the world and still finished third.

The idea that the Champions League is a luck based competition but a league title decided by less than 5 points over 38 games isn't is ridiculous.
 

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Both Pep's Barcelona and Zidane's Real are historical teams that became so historical, memorable and remarkable for very different, sometimes opposite, reasons. That's why comparing both ultimately does not make much sense. Pep's Barcelona had a more lasting effect in the game and looked unbeatable in their best matches, pushing football to its highest technical level.

Zidane's Madrid was a different case. What defined that Real team was ultimately their mentality and competitive edge to score and get the result even when playing badly and under big pressure, such as both legs against Bayern in 2018 (Bayern clearly superior in both games, though they weren't technically great games anyway, and still losing due to Real taking advantage of Rafinha and Ulreich's terrible mistakes, not unlike Karius' two blunders in the final) and the second leg against Juventus also in 2018. The winning mentality of a club made to win, fated, almost doomed to win at times.

Xavi once said that he envied how Real could get the needed results even when outplayed and playing badly, this is something that Real has more than any other club. And the UCL is Real's big playground, they can win it even if playing badly in most of the games in the season, such as their last season. In the 2015-2016, Zidane had assumed only in the middle of the season and Real had the easiest CL run ever and their football was never great. Barcelona and Bayern had been playing the best football in Europe throughout almost all season. When it comes to pure quality and technical level, though, Zidane's Real was truly at its prime in the 2016-2017 season. They were really great. Not peak Pep's Barcelona level, but still very high quality and best team in the world. Considering all of this, the fact that Real was the club able to win 3 consecutive titles despite some previous squads being more brilliant than them feels fitting and right, inevitable. Zidane's Real is defined by Thanos' quote: "I am inevitable".
This whole post is comparing the two teams
 

paraguayo

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They were both extremely unlikeable and I cheered for them to lose every tie possible
 

Eli Zee

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This writeup is why when I seize power and become Supreme Dictator, I will ban non-champions from the CL.

In those 4 years that Real won the CL (fantastic), they won the league only once (abysmal). And no, I don't want to hear anything about how Zidane would have won the league in his first season if not for Benitez.

For all the flack Barcelona receive and have received, they have proved that they've been the best team in Spain on aggregate and at each team's peak. What's Barcelona's record in El Classicos during Pep's time? Ditto for Zidane? There you go.
I love that idea solely because no team would have it easy at any point in the competition..but at thesame time then the CL tournament would have like 1/4th the amount of matches it has now. And I’d rather have up to 20 opportunities to watch my team play than only up to 5
 

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I agree. For me, as great as Madrid's recent CL successes are, domestic dominance over the course of the entire season and multiple such seasons, is the first pre condition to complete greatness, for me. Champions League success coupled with domestic domination then completes the set. Real would consistently be second fiddle in the league over the course of the year and then win the CL. A lot of glory but slightly misleading and it lacks something.
Isn't the comparison here Zidane's Madrid vs Pep's Barca? Zidane was 2.5 years in charge, in his first half season Madrid actually won more points than Barca and then he won the league in his second season. Only in his last season they did worse than Barca and it was obvious that had nothing to do with lack of quality as they proved in the Champions League.

Before that year, the titles they lost to Barca throughout the years were mostly titles decided by 1 or 2 points and there were plenty of injuries and ref decisions to account for those couple of points... the idea they were playing second fiddle to Barcelona for most of the past decade is just wrong. They lost a few league titles despite being the best team in Spain, 2013/14 being the best example of that.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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There is a certain amount of luck involved in cup competitions and Real used up the luck of a lifetime to win 3 CL titles. Just from one game in the 2017 CL against Bayern:

Casemiro should have got two yellows easily and been sent off. Lewandowski would have been one-on-one through on goal and onside, called offside. Vidal gets sent off for a legitimate tackle. Ronaldo offside for the winner. Ronaldo offside for the clinching goal.

But they were a very good side that year nonetheless. At least they were probably the best team in Europe, they won their domestic league that year and had a tough run to the final.

2016 was one of the weakest CLs in memory, Real sleepwalked to the final against a Man City team before Pep that I only remember for Yaya giving the least amount of any player in CL semi-final history. Play Wolfsburg and Roma to get that far. Then win the final on penalties. 2018 they seemed to have some sort of voodoo doll against goalkeepers, again Bayern should have beaten them but for Ulreich to make one of the worst goalkeeper mistakes at that level I've ever seen, only to be matched by Karius in the next round. Those two mistakes were vital to winning those two matches.

As for Barca:

In 2009, they were the best team in Europe, similar to Real in 2017, but got lucky against Chelsea in the semi-final in a similar way to Real against Bayern in 2017. In 2010, they got very unlucky in a way that Real never did in that stretch, that Icelandic volcano before the Inter match, then scoring a goal wrongly called offside in the second leg that would have put them in the final. In 2011, they were the best team in Europe and it wasn't even close. They won the league all 3 years.

Real won one more CL in that time, but Barca won the treble. We all know how hard that is to pull off, Real haven't done it in their history despite winning 13 Champions League. No English team has been able to match United's treble in 1999 in their history either.

In terms of playing style, Real were much more versatile but they never reached the heights of that Barca team in 2009/2011. This was a team that could go 3 or 4 up in the league and then pass the ball about, and humiliate good teams like that United one in 2011, or Real Madrid themselves in 2009 and 2010. Even if they won one less CL, Barcelona of that time were much superior in my opinion.
 

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When I talk about this with my friends, Barça fans, we end up reducing it to:
3 consecutive champions (although we really talk about 4 of 5), and they on the other hand: 2 champions in 4 years and the "sextete" (six titles in one year).
In the end what remains are the titles, and I personally would not change the three consecutive Champions, which allows us to sit at the table with Ajax and Bayern from the 70s.
Unfortunately in the case of Madrid there seems to be a certain disdain.
The Champions League becomes the competition for lucky people (such as the Inter of Mourinho and Di Matteo), ignoring resistance, aim, versatility, etc.
and la liga (which in other occasions is the Scottish league) becomes the defining factor between the two teams. Liga that Pep lost last year when he completely lost control of the locker room.
 

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Maxrid are better in my opinion. They reguraly went aeay to the toughest grounds in world football and swept befotr them. A lot of Peps ewns were get them back to Camp Nou and repair the damage.
That Madrid sides directness would kill tiki taka
 

11101

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Winning 3 CLs in a row in its current format is probably the best achievement in club football history, they weren't technically as good as other historically great teams but they had better mentality than any other team for those games. They won it in 2016 and people called it luck because of the draw, then they did it two more times with nightmare draws and somehow it is still luck? They just never crumbled no matter how tough it got and knew how to manage the periods within a game perfectly as they were always 100% certain they'd have their moment. The amount of times that team had the momentum of the tie completely against them and still managed to pull through was unbelievable.
That's all true but that's because they set themselves up to focus on the Champions League at the expense of all else. All Madrid talked about for years was La Decima and the CL treble. It's hardly unfair to say they took full advantage of a time when the competition was weak, which is kind of what happened when their obsession with it started back in the 50s.

By contrast when Pep's Barcelona were winning in the late 2000s, the competition was in one of its stronger periods.
 

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That's all true but that's because they set themselves up to focus on the Champions League at the expense of all else. All Madrid talked about for years was La Decima and the CL treble. It's hardly unfair to say they took full advantage of a time when the competition was weak, which is kind of what happened when their obsession with it started back in the 50s.

By contrast when Pep's Barcelona were winning in the late 2000s, the competition was in one of its stronger periods.
Late 2000s was indeed a very difficult time but Pep only started at Barca in 2008/09. 2009 was a very strong year as they went through two top teams in Chelsea and United, after that I don't think it was a tough period judging by how the other top teams were doing. The english teams massively declined, Dortmund, Juve and the oil clubs weren't about, Bayern and Madrid were good but would go on to become a lot better. That Barca team really should have won it 4 times in a row between 2009 to 2012, getting knocked out by Inter and Chelsea was criminal. It might be a bit crazy to say this but I honestly think they underachieved by winning 3 league titles and 2 CL titles in 4 years.

For Zidane's Madrid, people downplayed their wins over Simeone's Atletico but the truth is that team knocked out Pep's Bayern at their best, MSN Barca twice and this current Liverpool team. Them plus Barca, Bayern and Allegri's Juve made high enough competition imo. City and PSG always shit themselves but they have great squads too.
 
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billybee99

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Isn't the comparison here Zidane's Madrid vs Pep's Barca? Zidane was 2.5 years in charge, in his first half season Madrid actually won more points than Barca and then he won the league in his second season. Only in his last season they did worse than Barca and it was obvious that had nothing to do with lack of quality as they proved in the Champions League.

Before that year, the titles they lost to Barca throughout the years were mostly titles decided by 1 or 2 points and there were plenty of injuries and ref decisions to account for those couple of points... the idea they were playing second fiddle to Barcelona for most of the past decade is just wrong. They lost a few league titles despite being the best team in Spain, 2013/14 being the best example of that.
Oh come on! Real Madrid used to sit back in fear of Barcelona just like the rest of us; they looked like they were going to crap their pants. We know you're Ronaldo's biggest fanboy but let's be honest here: Pep's Barca would wipe the floor with Zidane's Madrid. And I say that as a neutral because I can't stand Barca or Real Madrid.
 

adexkola

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Maxrid are better in my opinion. They reguraly went aeay to the toughest grounds in world football and swept befotr them. A lot of Peps ewns were get them back to Camp Nou and repair the damage.
That Madrid sides directness would kill tiki taka
It did not, as shown by the El Classicos matches during that period.
 

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This isn’t even a competition for me. Pep’s Barcelona are arguably the best team in history, and in my lifetime they played the best football I’ve ever watched. No one comprehensively outplayed teams the way they did. I don’t care how many trophies are waves in my face, Pep’s Barcelona was superior.
 

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Maxrid are better in my opinion. They reguraly went aeay to the toughest grounds in world football and swept befotr them. A lot of Peps ewns were get them back to Camp Nou and repair the damage.
That Madrid sides directness would kill tiki taka
Except that they literally didn’t and Barcelona won more meetings than not during that period, did they not? And the Barcelona team they faced wasn’t even as good as Pep’s Barcelona.
 

11101

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Late 2000s was indeed a very difficult time but Pep only started at Barca in 2008/09. 2009 was a very strong year as they went through two top teams in Chelsea and United, after that I don't think it was a tough period judging by how the other top teams were doing. The english teams massively declined, Dortmund, Juve and the oil clubs weren't about, Bayern and Madrid were good but would go on to become a lot better. That Barca team really should have won it 4 times in a row between 2009 to 2012, getting knocked out by Inter and Chelsea was criminal. It might be a bit crazy to say this but I honestly think they underachieved by winning 3 league titles and 2 CL titles in 4 years.

For Zidane's Madrid, people downplayed their wins over Simeone's Atletico but the truth is that team knocked out Pep's Bayern at their best, MSN Barca twice and this current Liverpool team. Them plus Barca, Bayern and Allegri's Juve made high enough competition imo. City and PSG always shit themselves but they have great squads too.
True, and for me the 2009 iteration was the best. The Henry - Eto'o - Messi front three had a freedom and directness that Pedro - Villa - Messi did not have, i guess Pep had not quite coached out all the individualism at that point and they were better for it imo.

The competition also dropped off, the team we fielded against them in 2011 was nowhere near what we put out in 2009.
 

adexkola

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True, and for me the 2009 iteration was the best. The Henry - Eto'o - Messi front three had a freedom and directness that Pedro - Villa - Messi did not have, i guess Pep had not quite coached out all the individualism at that point and they were better for it imo.

The competition also dropped off, the team we fielded against them in 2011 was nowhere near what we put out in 2009.
:lol:
 

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Except that they literally didn’t and Barcelona won more meetings than not during that period, did they not? And the Barcelona team they faced wasn’t even as good as Pep’s Barcelona.
Madrid did. Beat PSG, Juve, Bayern and Atletico all on their own turf during last win (i think) im syruggling to think of a bad away result they had duting thst time. Won at Anfield as well.. Away to Roma.
If that Barca side faced Madrid then my money is on Real. Look at Pep now, that pure Tiki Taka doesnt work in Europe and hasnt done for a while.
I think the Messi / Suarez/ Neymar side beats that Barca version as well.
 

adexkola

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Madrid did. Beat PSG, Juve, Bayern and Atletico all on their own turf during last win (i think) im syruggling to think of a bad away result they had duting thst time. Won at Anfield as well.. Away to Roma.
If that Barca side faced Madrid then my money is on Real. Look at Pep now, that pure Tiki Taka doesnt work in Europe and hasnt done for a while.
I think the Messi / Suarez/ Neymar side beats that Barca version as well.
No you missed his (and my) point: Real were regularly on the losing side against Barcelona.

Going back to 2013 season (including La Liga and Copa Del Ray)

Barcelona wins in El Classico: 9
Draws: 4
Real Madrid wins in El Classico: 4

That's an abysmal record for a team that you say would defeat prime tiki taka, when they couldn't do it against a worse version of tiki taka