Yeah exactly, depends what is meant by dominating a game. By your (and my) definition, you could be going back to 2010 or earlier. I can't remember much about our 2010 season in particular but it was around then that the 'Zombie football' phrase was started if I remember right.
Why so many knee-jerk reactions and negativity 7 games in?
- Thread starter UnitedSofa
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There's a pretty clear pattern of downward performance against big teams since December 2019.
In the 19/20 league season, we won against Fat Frank Chelsea and Tottenham early on in that season, drew vs Liverpool and Arse and won vs City, then after Dec lost to Pool, drew Tottenham and drew Arse, and won against City and Chelsea again, if you look to the cups as well, lost on aggregate to City in LC, lost to Chelsea in FAC, lost to Sevilla in EL.
Then last season won one lost one vs Spurs, lost one drew one against Liverpool, drew both games against Arsenal and Chelsea, drew one lost one against City, drew both games against Leicester who we used to have a good record against, even managed to feck up against Everton to draw at home. The less said about CL the better, lost in LC to City, FAC to Leicester, beat the 3th and 7th placed team in Serie A to the EL final (both of them close affairs on aggregate) and managed to feck it up vs Villareal.
There's no way you can say with a straight face that based on evidence of the last 18 months or so that we are good against big teams or play well vs them due to our strength on the counter. We had very good big game record in his first six months as caretaker and a good, bordering on great first half of 19/20. It has all been downhill from then, and didnt pick up alongside with our form vs the weaker teams even when we managed to go on a decent run again.
In most cases, what calls out for attention is the obvious. What is obvious?
United have a very strong squad, albeit with a clear weakness in midfield.
The squad have severely underperformed so far this season.
We supporters are frustrated with almost a decade of disappointment and overall unattractive football.
Nearly all of us are by now willing to sacrifice attractive football for trophies and willing to sacrifice trophies for attractive football, but we are in no mood for watching unattractive football and still going trophyless.
Now for the speculation on my part. I worry that another season of going trophyless is what Ole has sold to club management, that we’ll add the final piece — a central midfielder — next summer…and then, finally, put in a proper challenge for the PL trophy.
Let’s see where we are in the table in two months, but wherever one is on Ole right now I don’t think anyone here can express surprise at that time that we’re in fourth place, well behind the league leader, whoever it may be.
United have a very strong squad, albeit with a clear weakness in midfield.
The squad have severely underperformed so far this season.
We supporters are frustrated with almost a decade of disappointment and overall unattractive football.
Nearly all of us are by now willing to sacrifice attractive football for trophies and willing to sacrifice trophies for attractive football, but we are in no mood for watching unattractive football and still going trophyless.
Now for the speculation on my part. I worry that another season of going trophyless is what Ole has sold to club management, that we’ll add the final piece — a central midfielder — next summer…and then, finally, put in a proper challenge for the PL trophy.
Let’s see where we are in the table in two months, but wherever one is on Ole right now I don’t think anyone here can express surprise at that time that we’re in fourth place, well behind the league leader, whoever it may be.
Last season imo it was because teams started to respect us more. They didn't attack us much like in 2019/2020. So we couldn't sit and counter them like in 2019/2020. But we were not strong enough to attack and score against them so we drew 0-0 a lot.
In the PL we lost three matches against the top 6 in 2020/2021. Against Spurs largely because of the Martial's red card. Against Arsenal because Pogba gave up a stupid pen. And against Liverpool but if my memory serves me right that match doesn't mean much to us but only for Liverpool because they were fighting for the top 4.
But it's true we have a tendency to feck up when it counts. Sometime it's Ole sometime it's the players, sometime both.
I don't really see the point in that. Too simple. You have to consider all factors. But in some way, the team needs to step up to a higher level this season and compete seriously with the other 3 big teams.
With everyone fit we have a:-
good backline.
Shit midfield
top forwards who can be too greedy
And a manager who cannot get his selections and substitutions right.
Which is why we will end up fighting for that 4th spot.
good backline.
Shit midfield
top forwards who can be too greedy
And a manager who cannot get his selections and substitutions right.
Which is why we will end up fighting for that 4th spot.
Its NOT a shit midfield though. We can argue its the area that needs attention and its not an elite midfield sure, but its not shit. That is the narrative being peddled in some quarters to excuse the current and ongoing situation.
McTominay
Fred (£50m)
VDB (£35m)
Pogba (£90m)
Matic (£40m)
Should be able to be deployed in a manner that gets more out of it than we are currently seeing. Maybe we lose out when we go up against Liverpool and City with this midfield but nobody is telling be we cant set up in a way that doesnt have it completely outclassed by the likes of Everton, Villa and Southampton!
I agree with this. Our games are a rinse and repeat affair of slowly passing the ball up to the opponent's third of the pitch, then running out of ideas and passing the ball back and forth across the pitch until we try a through-ball that doesn't come off. Anytime our wide players get the ball, they are standing still and, as they have two players right on top of them, end up passing it backwards so we can slowly move the ball to the other wing and try the same thing.
The exception is when we break on a counter – there we look like we know what to do, but as soon as we slow it down, and the opposition get into position, then we are stuck.
But this is not a knee-jerk reaction, it is simply an observation of how we have played for the last few years. As has been said a number of times, we tend to win games via an individual moment of brilliance, not as the result of a system we have employed.
Watching games last season, I loved Cavani's movement and endless runs into space...but we hardly ever got him the ball. This season it is the same with us failing to get the ball into the box for Ronaldo / Cavani to attack. We are wasting them. I'm not suggesting we go back to Moyes' record number of crosses...although if we did cross the ball that many times I have zero doubt that Ronaldo and Cavani would absolutely feast. But we need to get the ball into the box earlier and give them both something to attack. AWB is not perhaps the greatest crosser, but I don't think you always need to be. If a ball comes in early as out forwards are running into the box and their defenders are running back to heir own goal, there is a much higher chance of something positive happening then if we try and cross it into the box from s stationary position when both our forwards and their defenders are all stationary also. In that instance, the cross does have to be perfect.
We do not look good defensively – every team we play seems to be able to open us up with absolute ease. Had it not been for DDG rediscovering his best form, I don't think we would have won a single game. People are saying it will improve when Maguire comes back, but I disagree. We were bad before his injury, and I actually think he is part of the problem. He is painfully slow and frequently caught marking no man's land. Varane is our best CB, and then I would put our other 3 CBs at the same level...and would actually prefer to see Lindelof or Bailly ahead of Maguire. It annoyed me at the time when Ole made him captain the moment he joined the club (I think that was a terrible move) and it now means that, when fit, he is basically undroppable...which is a nightmare.
On the subject of our defence, even though we have two holding midfielders in a 'double-pivot'...we still look extremely vulnerable to any and every attack. And at the same time, when we do have the ball, our midfield has no clue how to break down the opposition. So we have a defensively-setup midfield...that doesn't actually help us defend. And has no influence in the game.
We have some fantastic players in our squad, but we don't have a system / way of playing. It is criminal that we buy a player like VdB, and then fail to use him. I honestly think he will leave, join another team and be incredible for them. I want to see Sancho play more, and think he has incredible potential...but I have no idea how to fit our players into our best XI...and I don't think Ole does either. Which is the biggest problem.
More of a rant than I planned...but I am tired of watching us play with zero idea, zero creativity when we have such exciting players.
If you are going to include Leicester last season since they compete in top 6 then you should be consistent by also including Leicester in 19/20 season as they also compete in top 6 and we beat them twice in that season.
Ole’s record:
Vs Tottenham (3W, 1D, 1L)
Vs City (4W, 1D, 3L)
Vs Chelsea (4W, 3D, 1L)
Vs Liverpool (1W, 3D, 2L)
Vs Leicester (2W, 1D, 2L)
Vs Arsenal (1W, 2D, 3L)
Vs PSG (2W, 0D, 2L)
Vs AC Milan (1W, 1D, 0L)
Even some of those loses came from red card and also came from the games where we didn’t even going for it as we already settled the top 4 at that time.
Based on the evidence above, what makes you think I cannot say it with straight face?
I agree that some posters really go over the top with name calling and such but at the same rime some need to stop seeing every question asked as negativity. The question if Ole has the ability to take us forward from where we are now is legitimate.
It is still too early in the season to call for heads but we are seeing slight signs of another very incosistent season ahead of us.
It is still too early in the season to call for heads but we are seeing slight signs of another very incosistent season ahead of us.
The forum is full of Ogden's. I don't think that man has said ANYTHING positive about OGS since he joined. If Poch was sitting in our managers chair this season, he would have a completely different tone. Few people i am more tired off. That said, i also believe that OGS might lack what he needs to take us to the next step and challenge for PL and PL.
wEr3 nOt KiCkInG On!!!
Genuine question: is it because players after lock down have had to finish the season, play Europa, play last season straight into Euros/Copas and then into pre season. Could fatigue be a factor? Mental or physical?
Genuine question: is it because players after lock down have had to finish the season, play Europa, play last season straight into Euros/Copas and then into pre season. Could fatigue be a factor? Mental or physical?
Mourinho won trophies. Ole has won nothing. Progress..
It's the same for everyone no?
Arguably the sides we have played have less internationals called up and so had a preseason rest? The top sides probably which might explain why we have ALL lost points so far?
Fatigue has been the go-to excuse from the day after Ole signed that permanent deal.
You're right, our players are the only ones who have played a lot of football lately. That's a genuine explanation for why one of the most expensive squads on the planet is being outplayed by teams like Villa and Southampton
City and Chelsea? They've had similar circumstances, if anything even more difficult - playing against CL teams and are doing just as good, if not better this season, having played far better opposition this season. Whilst also looking far better from a performance perspective.
Every year for the last 30 years we have been supposedly short in various areas of the pitch. Then as soon as we fill those gaps the focus switches to another area of the pitch. This time last year we needed a centre back and right winger. Job done!
Now we are blaming the midfielders for our poor form!
This is a never ending saga. You will never have a squad that is 100% all round.
You have to manage game tactics to overcome your weaknesses.
We have such a glut of attacking players that Ole doesn't know where to turn at the minute to get the best out of the team.
We have to stay in the mix until something clicks. I'm sure it will.
Now we are blaming the midfielders for our poor form!
This is a never ending saga. You will never have a squad that is 100% all round.
You have to manage game tactics to overcome your weaknesses.
We have such a glut of attacking players that Ole doesn't know where to turn at the minute to get the best out of the team.
We have to stay in the mix until something clicks. I'm sure it will.
fecking hell.
Why is it the congested fixture list hasn't affected City and other clubs?
No.
Don't worry OP, these clowns (99% of this forum and Twitter) will be real quiet at the end of the season
Oh the irony of this post
I think you are spot on with this.
There are lots of issues surrounding Ole's management, but he has been able to get more money out of the owners and in most cases it seems we bought the players he wanted. If you recall Ole was originally touted as an interim manager and whilst he was eventually made permanent, you sometimes get the feeling the club is still following the original script.
The midfielder situation has been 'front and centre' as our number one need, ever since SAF finished (arguably before he finished!) so why its been left until last is uncertain, maybe the availability of midfielders has been the issues, maybe the need to build up a squad of other top players is necessary to attract the right kind of player for our midfield... who knows, hopefully someone inside OT?
Come on people, this is pure speculation. Lex Talionis says so himself. You can't be "spot on" with speculation - if you had reason to think that, it wouldn't be speculation.
It did. But no one played as many games as United over that span.
No, they didn't. Their 20/21 ended earlier (much earlier, for Chelsea's part), and you play more games in the EL final stages than in the CL final stages. For whatever that matters.
Sorry thought I had given the reason for 'spot on'... if the club is still following the original script when Ole's tenure was defined as 'interim'.
I think it's more to do with the teams utd have played. This is a run of games they needed to get as many points from as possible before the schedule toughens up, meanwhile the three teams they're behind are the main title contenders and have all played at least 1 game against the others. Yes it's early in the season, but this is a repetition of struggling to beat sides they really should. Combine that with some really crappy performances, I think it's justifed to be concerned about a lack of improvement.
"We're not in a relegation battle so why the negativity???".
Well, Chelsea have only lost points to Liverpool and City. And Liverpool mainly to other top teams (the Brentford draw being the only exception).
City though have also had their struggles, with 4 points dropped to Tottenham and Southampton. For which they somehow seem to escape much critical scrutiny (which to be fair may have to do with how good they looked - and were - against Chelsea and Liverpool.)
Looking at points, we're obviously not off to a disastrous start. The worry is more over how we've played and how vulnerable we've looked - and not least, that we have dropped seven points against opponents whom we dropped a total of four points against all of last season. But it's a fine line.
So true.
Bring in a DM and I swear next season our fullbacks are the issue if we’re playing poorly.
It affected them at the start of last, a bit. They soon hit their stride and didn't look physically or mentally drained as the previous poster suggested was the issue for us because of a similar schedule.
The fact that the start of last season, and to a lesser extent the Euros, are being used as excuses to defend our poor results and performances is frankly pathetic.
It isn't just "now" that people are blaming central midfield. Fans have been going on about the center of midfield for years.
I don't think it can reasonably be seen as a big factor this season (but certainly for last year, and not just for us. But then we did finish second)
I have made up my mind. Although, I am not calling for his hear right now(preferred candidates are booked). I am absolutely convinced he's not the man.
A coach that can't develop a consistent way of playing after three years will never develop one.
I am not even talking about consistent performances. I am talking about a discernable way of playing. In three years, I have yet to see it. We have consistently been a team that turns up in moments.
I think the biggest thing for me personally and I am attributing this back to the VG years not just Oles tenure, is when we lose or play badly it's no longer a shock. It's more a nice surprise if we beat a decent team, and to me sums up how low we have fallen. We always seem to need something else a CB then RW then CM then RB and this is good enough for some fans to say that's why we're not winning anything. feck me were supposed to be the biggest club in England with the highest or next highest spend, with the highest or next highest wage bill, yet everyone else around the top 4/5 win trophies. WTF is wrong at Utd?
10 games into the season. 166 games into Ole's managerial career at United. We've seen very little progress in return for 3 years and £380m of signings
We added Bruno and had a massive turnaround that lasted about 20 games, but then reverted to type in terms of our inability to break down teams. Our defending is overall even worse so far than last season, despite signing Varane, who's played well for the most part, and De Gea's return to form.
3 years and still no good organisation at the back and no discernible style going forward. Still relying on moments of brilliance to win matches. Still starting matches horribly and only turning up when we go a goal down. Still playing like the underdogs, not only in games against titles rivals but even in games against European sides we should be utterly dominant over.
We added Bruno and had a massive turnaround that lasted about 20 games, but then reverted to type in terms of our inability to break down teams. Our defending is overall even worse so far than last season, despite signing Varane, who's played well for the most part, and De Gea's return to form.
3 years and still no good organisation at the back and no discernible style going forward. Still relying on moments of brilliance to win matches. Still starting matches horribly and only turning up when we go a goal down. Still playing like the underdogs, not only in games against titles rivals but even in games against European sides we should be utterly dominant over.
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Pfft. There's cause for concern over early performances, but this is just hysterics. We're coming off 3rd and 2nd place finishes and are currently 1 point behind the leaders, to listen to several of you you'd think we were Arsenal. Calm down and have some perspective, for feck's sake.
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There were 10 games in all comps so far, we won only 5 of them, and really shouldn't have beaten Wolves and Villarreal. Performances against Villa and Everton not good enough obviously, you expect to get at the very least 4 points out of those 2 games, we won only 1, and it was at Old Trafford. I don't care about league cup loss and Wan Bissaka's red card did hurt us against Young Boys, we were comfortable until that point, but overall it's not been great so far. Next 10 games are much more difficult and after all those points already lost, we basically have to overperform.