Why so many knee-jerk reactions and negativity 7 games in?

[ReddBalls]

Good post. For me the breaking point was Young Boys. To completely capitulate against such an opponent because you go down to 10 men was appalling. Can you imagine Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Bayern, PSG etc. doing that? We have a hugely superior squad, we should have been fine down to 10 men, but we barely had a kick. That was all about the the system, the mentality instilled and the coaching.

PSG just lost 2-0 to Rennes, and won just one of the ten games they went a man down last season. City went from 2-0 to 2-3 against Brighton last season after going down to ten men. Chelsea lost 5-2 to WBA last season. At home. With one man down for an hour. Liverpool for some reason got no red cards last season. The odd one out is Bayern, but even they struggle when they get down to ten.

There are fair arguments against Ole, but not this one. Playing 10 to 11 is hard for everyone, even the most stacked teams.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

I remember in the 2000s my mate, who is a big Liverpool fan, would celebrate a player having a special moment (in a season where they would then finish 6th) and I used to mock him that big players shouldn't survive on moments. Proper players perform and run games across an entire season. We are now the side that survives on moments, its depressing.

I watched liv mancity game that day. Any dashes of stopping either them is complete fallacy. They both worlds apart in the way they play yet both are equally authoritative and the flow was metronomic. Granted its just one game, but both keep things rolling by practiced and assuring ease. I don't even know what's wrong with us. Years without trophy and yet many things all is fine. They think we are bound to come good. It won't be worth current set up. Long season ahead.

 

[Ali Dia]

Firstly you’re aware that Pogba didn’t even start one of the games that poster mentioned ?

Secondly what you seem to want sounds a hell of a lot like Leeds United who we stuffed 5-1 and 6-2.

Thirdly the teams you mention have a platform in terms of tactics drilled by the management meaning they don’t press as individuals, they press in blocks. We don’t have that. Playing mediocre players to press individually let’s you down when you win possession. Not having actual tactics let’s you down both with and without the ball. Having great players is not an issue, it’s up to the manager to get the best out of them

Fairly sure Pogba did start against Villa? he was probably our worst player for giving the ball away and not pressing to get it back. It’s one passive attacker too many in an attack that already doesn’t press enough. Pogba was doing really good until Ronaldo came in but it’s all gone dead flat since. All you need to do to defend us is sit deep and clog up the middle. Turn over and counter every few attacks.

 

[FatTails]

How disrespectful. I did read your post but lots of it was also echoed in the other post I quoted.

I suppose you're referring to this stat here

https://www.planetfootball.com/quic...rd-at-man-utd-to-mourinhos-at-the-same-stage/

It's 1 whole percentage, which is nothing.

Also there is a stat somewhere, which I'm struggling to locate that states that we have scored more 3+ times in games than any other United team since SAF took over. Mourinho also loved a 1-0. Which was dross football and no one liked that but it got us trophies. Which is a lot of us wanted right? But that clearly wasn't good enough because we played boring football and that brought all the toxic atmosphere and falling out with players too. So what is it that you want, more goals scored (which means more open play which in effect will make you leaky at the back as you move higher up the pitch to score those goals) or do you want less goals and more points per game? Points per game which is basically nul. 1.97 compared to 1.94. Hardly anything.



Love you too el3mel



Ironically we do better against the better teams than we do against the low-end mid table teams who tend to play the low-block.

These are old stats at this point, your article is from May.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/we-are-an-awfully-coached-team.458678/post-27882923

This is for all the games and the gap is widening. Don’t forget this includes the run of bad results under Mourinho that got him sacked, yet is ahead on most metrics. The only thing Ole made us better at is scoring more goals per game, but our goal difference per game is now worse because we concede quite a bit more.

I am not arguing that Mourinho was the answer, or that his football was amazing, but I am just saying that other than a general happy mood around the club and much more pleasant characters, Ole hasn’t been an improvement over Mourinho. I don’t think our football is all that great at all tbh. We still largely score from counterattacks and excel at quick transitions (just like under Mourinho), our xG and chance creation is absolutely terrible, just like long stretches under Mourinho, we still set up defensively against the better sides and concede control, just like Mourinho, and we are still reliant on individuals in attacks rather than any coherent way of playing.

So again, if watching us clearly shows issues all over the pitch, if the stats back that up, if Ole has been in the job for 3 years and has been backed heavily, where is the kneejerk part?

Finally, don’t create these false dichotomies. Fans of one of the richest clubs of the world, with one of the most expensive squads, and with a rich tradition of achievements and good football don’t have to pick between dire football and winning stuff. We were playing terrible football under Mou but won two trophies, we now play terrible football under Ole and looks less likely than ever to win anything (winning a game is hard enough).

 

[Resch]

A bit of context on that guy: He started as a blogger on football tactics and is a co-founder of spielverlagerung.de. You can maybe compare him with Michael Cox (zonalmarking) in that regard. But while the latter went on to become a full-time journalist, Maric found his way into professional football. First contact was made by Thomas Tuchel, who got the guys from spielverlagerung.de to deliver some analysis input for him while he was coaching Mainz. So today he is working as a tactical analyst/assistant coach for Rose in Dortmund.

He joined Salzburg 2016 and became Roses assistent 2017.

 

[UnitedSofa]

You can repeat it 100 times but you @UnitedSofa just don't want to listen. It is the fact thst we don't look good on the pitch. At all. And after you watch our rivals then you see how far we are from winning anything this season or next. Our coach is just not good enough. Why is that that hard to accept or understand?
It is like waiting that Fred will become new Rijkaard.

@Andycoleno9 See post #150

We have great players, world class players even, but are we a good team at the moment. No we are not. That's what everyone is upset about. However, I can see Ole getting the team playing well and us becoming good again. But you can't say that we're a good team by any stretch of the imagination.

We will come good, and all this doom and gloom isn't as bad as it may seem. We'll get there, just requires patience.

These are old stats at this point, your article is from May.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/we-are-an-awfully-coached-team.458678/post-27882923

This is for all the games and the gap is widening. Don’t forget this includes the run of bad results under Mourinho that got him sacked, yet is ahead on most metrics. The only thing Ole made us better at is scoring more goals per game, but our goal difference per game is now worse because the we concede quite a bit more.

I am not arguing that Mourinho was the answer, or that his football was amazing, but I am just saying that other than a general happy mood around the club and much more pleasant characters, Ole hasn’t been an improvement over Mourinho. I don’t think our football is all that great at all tbh. We still largely score from counterattacks and excel at quick transitions (just like under Mourinho), our xG and chance creation is absolutely terrible, just like long stretches under Mourinho, we still set up defensively against the better sides and concede control, just like Mourinho, and we are still reliant on individuals in attacks rather than any coherent way of playing.

So again, if watching us clearly shows issues all over the pitch, if the stats back that up, if Ole has been in the job for 3 years and has been backed heavily, where is the kneejerk part?

I checked that URL because the original poster who mentioned 144 games correlated to the link that I posted.

KneeJerk because we're 7 games in and people are acting the most negatively than I have ever seen over these last 3 years.

 

[FatTails]

@Andycoleno9 See post #150







I checked that URL because the original poster who mentioned 144 games correlated to the link that I posted.

KneeJerk because we're 7 games in and people are acting the most negatively than I have ever seen over these last 3 years.

Well look at the updated numbers. Doesn’t get any less kneejerk than looking at the entire 161 games under Ole for context, and I am comparing it to Mourinho, who many refer to as a “dark period” and whatever euphemisms about how bad it’s been. I’m also including Ole’s time as interim which make his numbers a lot better.

If he’s underperforming Mourinho, and playing chaotic crap football, and constantly losing finals and semifinals, what does he bring? By his own admission, he’s not a tactician/coach. According to many on here, he doesn’t decide on transfers (VDB). Surely you have to have a bit more about you than decent man management to be the manager at one of the biggest clubs in the world?

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

Well because people watch games rather than just checking league tables . It’s a bit annoying to watch games at home or in the stadium where we are second best most of the game despite not playing a single team so far with more talent than us

 

[cybertej29]

It's funny reading all these doom and gloom posts. Didn't Sir Alex take years to get into the groove? Don't you guys want that kind of long term stability for the club? Even Sir Alex was accused of being naive tactically.
Sacking Ole will get us another short term manager who would bolt at the first sign of despair.
Ole loves the club and I don't care if he is not the best manager in the short term, I will support this club for life and I know it is someone who cares for this fantastic club who will take it forward.

 

[Ben Lister]

For as long as Pep, Klopp and Tuchel remain the manager at their respective clubs, we ain’t overcoming shit. I’m not as into been against Ole as some are but living in a sense of reality, Ole is nowhere near better than them. Ole has made some great overall improvements to Man United I feel but sadly I don’t think it will ever be good enough. Only time will tell but everything compiled together from what I’ve seen since Ole has been here isn’t enough to convince me we can overcome them all.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Half the caf seem to have already written off the season already, after 7 games and we've Ole out threads popping up all over the place. I know they have different names but they're all the same thread containing pretty much the same posts.

The start hasn't been great and the team hasn't properly gotten going yet this season but we're still in touching distance and should get out of the CL group.

We'll see in the next 3 - 5 games if the doom and gloom was warranted.

Where is this confidence from? We lost one game and should have lost the other. We didnt get out of the groups last year.

 

[Ish]

I'd say at least 10-1 for Ole out threads. The dramatic ones scream the loudest.

Thought the saying went “empty vessels…”

 

[Withnail]

Where is this confidence from? We lost one game and should have lost the other. We didnt get out of the groups last year.

If you think me saying we can still get out of the group is some kind of over the top optimism, I really don't know what to say.

I personally go into each game thinking we can we it because we can. If you want to doom scenario the season away before it's even got going go ahead but it's not for me.

 

[Plant0x84]

Because we had the best transfer window of any team in Europe bar PSG and yet our performance level has regressed from last season?

And naturally there isn’t any period of acclimatisation, adjusting to a new league or living in a new country or learning to play with your new team mates in a new system. Nope. Robots. That’s who we signed.

 

[glazed]

We as Manchester united want to win the PL /CL, that is the bar set for the manager and the team. To do this, we need keep up with the other teams that will challenge.

See your starting point is the problem. The Glazers only want to get into the top four. That is where the bar is set, not least in Ole's contract.

The financial cost in transfers and long term restructuring of creating a probability of winning either of those competitions is very large. And even then there is no guarantee. It's not worth the cost or the risk of failure.

Short version - competing with oil states and magnates who don't care about profit and loss is just bad business.

 

[Godfather]

And naturally there isn’t any period of acclimatisation, adjusting to a new league or living in a new country or learning to,0ay with your new team mates in a new system. Nope. Robots. That’s who we signed.

Agreed. Players will take time to bed in.

For the likes of Ronaldo however we don't have that time. It's a shame we can't get the best out of him right from the start as we won't have him for long. Same goes for Cavani. The moment our younger signings are bedded in a new rebuilding process will have to start. It feels like a never ending story with us

 

[Andycoleno9]

I'd say at least 10-1 for Ole out threads. The dramatic ones scream the loudest.

There is far more ole is great threads than Ole out threads. There are two active threads about out. On the other hand, every day you have thread which "explains" how awesome he is, how in matter of fact he is doing good job and of course some threads who are directed to us "not good fans"

 

[Plant0x84]

There is far more ole is great threads than Ole out threads. There are two active threads about out. On the other hand, every day you have thread which "explains" how awesome he is, how in matter of fact he is doing good job and of course some threads who are directed to us "not good fans"

Absolute fecking lies. Even the Ole supporting threads get swamped by negativity, petty accusation and childish name calling.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Absolute fecking lies. Even the Ole supporting threads get swamped by negativity, petty accusation and childish name calling.

Yeah, that is main theme. Ole out= negativity.

 

[Hughie77]

Maybe Bonucci of Juve, is right he said when Ronny is in the dressing room other players performances drop not on purpose, but because they think we'll he's going to get us a goal. Now is this happening in the Utd squad?
I can't see it myself it's just some people grasping at straws, to find a answer as why there's been abjective performances in some games.

Now I've listened to the Radio pundits and well most of them , have said UTD haven't played well in any of there games ?? Now where there getting that from, 5 v Leeds 4 v N Castle. And even in those games apparently we should have not won them it was this or that.
I agree it's not been pretty and it has to change or by December we're out of contention in league and may even be out of the CL.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

It’s not just about seven games though is it? We’ve all seen this movie before and know what’s coming. He’s had enough time and given enough resources to be mixing it up at the top, which we’re miles off. Let him have the full season but make it very clear, it’s make or break and we’re past the point of a League or Europa cup being enough.

 

[RUCK4444]

There is far more ole is great threads than Ole out threads. There are two active threads about out. On the other hand, every day you have thread which "explains" how awesome he is, how in matter of fact he is doing good job and of course some threads who are directed to us "not good fans"

Could you please direct me to this make believe forum you describe.

If this place is so overly Ole-in like you describe then I must have been living in an alternative universe.

It’s been nothing but a constant flow of negativity since like the 2nd game of the season

 

[RedDevil@84]

Yeah, that is main theme. Ole out= negativity.

Not just Ole out. Anyone criticizing Ole for his role in a loss/draw is considered as spreading negativity and pessimism.

 

[noodlehair]

We've played well in 1 game this season and arguably only looked the better team in 1 game, and that was on the opening day.

It isn't knee jerk to be concerned at 9 poor performances in a row.

 

[RUCK4444]

It’s not just about seven games though is it? We’ve all seen this movie before and know what’s coming. He’s had enough time and given enough resources to be mixing it up at the top, which we’re miles off. Let him have the full season but make it very clear, it’s make or break and we’re past the point of a League or Europa cup being enough.

So it’s win the league or CL for you as the minimum? Just for clarity.

I’m interested in peoples minimum expectation for the season.

 

[Roboc7]

How did they get themselves in such awful positions with such fantastic managers? It's almost like even the best can have runs of poor results at any time.

Your just proving my point, Ole isn’t amongst the best, never has been, that’s the reality a lot of people don’t want to accept.

All managers have bad spells but few go on to win the biggest trophies. It’s a dumb argument that Pep, Klopp, SAF turned it all round etc because their miles better managers, people seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on time and what others have done rather than the actual ability of Ole.

I hope Ole is a success but I’m not going to walk round thinking it’s in any way likely especially based on what other much more talented people have done.

 

[Adisa]

OP talking about just seven games and knee-jerking renders the discussion not worth debate.

 

[stw2022]

Even his ardent supporters don’t really rate him as a manager so what’s the point in sticking with him? Politeness?

Had more time than the last guy, won less, football’s still shit…

….”progress”

 

[RedDevil@84]

OP talking about just seven games and knee-jerking renders the discussion not worth debate.

Any discussion that involves "we could have been worse" is not worthy of debate. Because one could always keep pointing at something worse. Like OP say "We are not in relegation, right"

 

[Robertd0803]

Because we have dropped 8 stupid points in the Premier League already that we shouldnt have, lost the opening game of the CL after some really bizarre tactics to say the least and while the last minute wins vs West Ham and Villareal were great we were really lucky in both games.

Most people were hopeful that with the signings made we would hit the ground running but instead we look all over the shagging place most of the time. How we are still within touching distance of Chelsea/Liverpool/City is remarkable.

Ole has done some wonderful things here steadying the ship etc. but things are looking and feeling pretty rough. Our in game management is seriously questionable and we are still struggling with lesser teams. We now seem to have developed a shocking abilty to be countered attack for fun as well.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

So it’s win the league or CL for you as the minimum? Just for clarity.

I’m interested in peoples minimum expectation for the season.

With the time and resources he’d have been given up until the end of this season, yes we should bag a League or CL. I’m going by what should be expected at this club, not because it’s Ole. If we’ve come this far into his tenure and still don’t expect a top honour it’s basically admitting he’s not good enough but stick with him anyway because of his connection to the club.

 

[UnitedSofa]

So it’s win the league or CL for you as the minimum? Just for clarity.

I’m interested in peoples minimum expectation for the season.

Top 3 finish.

A cup would be nice but a consistent finish Top 3 finish 4 years on the trot would be good enough to go another year in my opinion.

Quarters/Semi's in the UCL if we drop into the EL, get to the final.

OP talking about just seven games and knee-jerking renders the discussion not worth debate.

Clearly talking about the league, considering the negativity has increased vastly since the Everton game. Hence the knee-jerking reaction. There's still 31 games to go. No need to panic.

The incredible thing is most people are panicking or getting worked up over results that haven't happened yet.

 

[UnitedSofa]

With the time and resources he’d have been given up until the end of this season, yes we should bag a League or CL. I’m going by what should be expected at this club, not because it’s Ole. If we’ve come this far into his tenure and still don’t expect a top honour it’s basically admitting he’s not good enough but stick with him anyway because of his connection to the club.

Expected at the club despite the bad form we've had over the last several years.....?

Don't mention Varane, Sancho or to less of an extent Ronaldo as they've literally just come into the squad. With 2 out of the 3 trying to figure out the league and Ronaldo needing to have the players around him, figure him out so to speak. One of them players, Varane, openly admitting he's adjusting to the league at the moment. While the other it's clear he's going to need time to figure things out.

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[Ronaldo's ego]

Expected at the club despite the bad form we've had over the last several years.....?

Don't mention Varane, Sancho or to less of an extent Ronaldo as they've literally just come into the squad. With 2 out of the 3 trying to figure out the league and Ronaldo needing to have the players around him, figure him out so to speak. One of them players, Varane, openly admitting he's adjusting to the league at the moment. While the other it's clear he's going to need time to figure things out.

Tweet

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Sticking too long with a series of underperforming managers has set a dangerous precedent at this club, just living off the ‘biggest club in the world’ shtick now because we certainly don’t operate like one. Of course new players need to settle, nothing mind blowing about that Varane quote but in my opinion I just don’t see it all coming together under the current regime. We all took the piss out of Arsenal and their top 4 trophy and with the mindset at the club this is where we’re headed, in my opinion.

 

[JPRouve]

Sticking too long with a series of underperforming managers has set a dangerous precedent at this club, just living off the ‘biggest club in the world’ shtick now because we certainly don’t operate like one. Of course new players need to settle, nothing mind blowing about that Varane quote but in my opinion I just don’t see it all coming together under the current regime. We all took the piss out of Arsenal and their top 4 trophy and with the mindset at the club this is where we’re headed, in my opinion.

We have been there for a while.

 

[::sonny::]

Because every team we play against looks like the 1970 Brazil

 

[stefan92]

It's funny reading all these doom and gloom posts. Didn't Sir Alex take years to get into the groove? Don't you guys want that kind of long term stability for the club? Even Sir Alex was accused of being naive tactically.
Sacking Ole will get us another short term manager who would bolt at the first sign of despair.
Ole loves the club and I don't care if he is not the best manager in the short term, I will support this club for life and I know it is someone who cares for this fantastic club who will take it forward.

It's ok to give a manager time if there is reason to trust him to deliver the results you want. If not, you should let him go, giving him more time would just mean wasting time.

So is Ole capable of being the X-Factor against the other top clubs to win titles against them? Probably not, too much inconsistent runs in the league and too many important cup or CL games lost.
Will Ole get top four? Usually he will, he is good enough to do that.

Are you happy with being the new Arsenal? Then you can be "Ole in". Do you want to stay relevant as the self-declared "biggest club in the world"? Then you must win titles again, and therefore need a new manager.

 

[Matst1]

I am starting to lose patience and getting worried, but last season we started worse i believe and finished second, ill wait until at least January to really start worrying - once varane and sancho are settled i think we'll be fine

 

[sullydnl]

With the time and resources he’d have been given up until the end of this season, yes we should bag a League or CL. I’m going by what should be expected at this club, not because it’s Ole. If we’ve come this far into his tenure and still don’t expect a top honour it’s basically admitting he’s not good enough but stick with him anyway because of his connection to the club.

Expecting to win a CL or PL in any given season is a bit much. Even top teams can miss out on both in a one-off season as there's too much quality opposition and luck involved, particularly in the CL.

Expecting to seriously compete for the PL/CL is entirely different. If any of City, Liverpool or Chelsea did neither then it would be considered a bad season for them too.The difference being that their managers have won those competitions before, so are rightly under less scrutiny than Solskjaer this year.

 

[Jeppers7]

Fairly sure Pogba did start against Villa? he was probably our worst player for giving the ball away and not pressing to get it back. It’s one passive attacker too many in an attack that already doesn’t press enough. Pogba was doing really good until Ronaldo came in but it’s all gone dead flat since. All you need to do to defend us is sit deep and clog up the middle. Turn over and counter every few attacks.

You seem to feel our problems begin and end with Pogba and all our solutions are around ‘work hard’. Can you name me one side in history that consistently won the biggest prizes with average ability (James, McT) but hard work (James,McT)

Also Pogba was one of our better players vs Villa along with Bruno and Greenwood. They drove us forwards.