Why the heck #OLEOUT is trending again?

Bilbo

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I saw the result. It's meaningless to me. Still the same brittle team who will inevitably choke when any pressure is on, so what's the point?
I actually feel a bit sorry for you mate
 

RedChisel

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How sad to not enjoy winning because of rubbish like patterns of play and other nonsense. Some really weird fans around nowadays.
 

Bilbo

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But which teams have actually got stronger? I'd argue only Westham AV and possibly Everton whereas teams like SU, Liverpool and WBA definitely aren't. Teams like Spurs, Chelsea (under Lampard), Arsenal, Southampton, Wolves haven't improved on last seasons form and the rest of the make up numbers teams are still doing just that. Leicester and ourselves are a constant, Leeds just plays suicidal football.

Just because mid/lower table clubs are taking points off the big boys doesn't mean they've improved and my own personal opinion is that standards are on power with previous seasons with the exception of the bigger clubs which has seen a fall on what's expected of them as a club.
There are different ways to look at it I suppose. Are bigger clubs performing worse because they are inferior in quality to last season, or is it because the overall strength of the league has improved to the point where those teams are finding it harder to put wins together? Who knows. It could be argued until the end of time. What I see currently is a league that has these coaches:

Pep, Klopp, Mourinho, Bielsa, Tuchel, Ancelotti, Rodgers, Ole

Not to mention other coaches such as Dean Smith, Arteta, Hassenhutl, Moyes, Nuno who all have very decent teams at their disposal with matchwinners amongst them. Almost every fixture looks like a banana skin. I personally believe that this is the strongest PL there has been in overall depth. We have the 1st & 4th current favourite for the CL, and the top 3 fancied teams for the EL.

However, even if we take your belief that the league is similar in strength, United are 14 points better off than we were after 25 games last season
 

Forevergiggs1

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There are different ways to look at it I suppose. Are bigger clubs performing worse because they are inferior in quality to last season, or is it because the overall strength of the league has improved to the point where those teams are finding it harder to put wins together? Who knows. It could be argued until the end of time. What I see currently is a league that has these coaches:

Pep, Klopp, Mourinho, Bielsa, Tuchel, Ancelotti, Rodgers, Ole

Not to mention other coaches such as Dean Smith, Arteta, Hassenhutl, Moyes, Nuno who all have very decent teams at their disposal with matchwinners amongst them. Almost every fixture looks like a banana skin. I personally believe that this is the strongest PL there has been in overall depth. We have the 1st & 4th current favourite for the CL, and the top 3 fancied teams for the EL.

However, even if we take your belief that the league is similar in strength, United are 14 points better off than we were after 25 games last season
I do agree that we are blessed with the managers we have in the PL but I'm still of the opinion that the only team that's really improved from last season is Westham. Who'd of thought we'd of been saying that about Moyes?

Looking at last seasons standout managers apart from the obvious, Chris Wilder was being touted (on the caf) as a future United manager, Hassenhuti was being touted (on the caf) as the next up and coming young manager and Nuno who I respect as a manager even though I'd never want him anywhere near United things are looking like it's going stale for them so 3 of the strongest underdogs last season haven't improved and in Chris Wilder case it's been a disaster, with maybe only Dean Smith taking the place of the 3.

On your last paragraph. You're (respected) opinion is the league has gotten stronger and you rightly mentioned that we're 14 points better off than this time last season but looking at it logically, if the league has gotten stronger and we have a lot more points that would mean that we have vastly improved on last seasons form. Do you think that's the case?
 

Bilbo

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I do agree that we are blessed with the managers we have in the PL but I'm still of the opinion that the only team that's really improved from last season is Westham. Who'd of thought we'd of been saying that about Moyes?

Looking at last seasons standout managers apart from the obvious, Chris Wilder was being touted (on the caf) as a future United manager, Hassenhuti was being touted (on the caf) as the next up and coming young manager and Nuno who I respect as a manager even though I'd never want him anywhere near United things are looking like it's going stale for them so 3 of the strongest underdogs last season haven't improved and in Chris Wilder case it's been a disaster, with maybe only Dean Smith taking the place of the 3.

On your last paragraph. You're (respected) opinion is the league has gotten stronger and you rightly mentioned that we're 14 points better off than this time last season but looking at it logically, if the league has gotten stronger and we have a lot more points that would mean that we have vastly improved on last seasons form. Do you think that's the case?
We mostly look back at last season as a mediocre first 2/3rds followed by a strong finish once Bruno was signed. What we've done is largely carry on from where we left off which is what everybody was hoping would happen.

Everyone is on a bit of a downer about United at the moment because of recent dropped points, but we are actually on a run of W12, D6, L1 in the last 19 league games. That is more than decent, and lets not forget that we had pretty much zero pre-season which probably cost us some points & early momentum too.

As far as form is concerned I don't think we have managed to hit the heights of that 6 game run where we won each of them by 3 clear goals, but then again this is a very difficult season with severe fixture congestion. I was predicting months back that the quality of football would suffer because of that, and I do think that it has been a major factor for every team. We are rotating the team and grinding out results, as expected.
 

Forevergiggs1

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We mostly look back at last season as a mediocre first 2/3rds followed by a strong finish once Bruno was signed. What we've done is largely carry on from where we left off which is what everybody was hoping would happen.

Everyone is on a bit of a downer about United at the moment because of recent dropped points, but we are actually on a run of W12, D6, L1 in the last 19 league games. That is more than decent, and lets not forget that we had pretty much zero pre-season which probably cost us some points & early momentum too.

As far as form is concerned I don't think we have managed to hit the heights of that 6 game run where we won each of them by 3 clear goals, but then again this is a very difficult season with severe fixture congestion. I was predicting months back that the quality of football would suffer because of that, and I do think that it has been a major factor for every team. We are rotating the team and grinding out results, as expected.
I'm with you on the bolded parts. That's probably my reasoning on why I don't think the league is any stronger than in previous seasons. I've watched a lot of football this season and more often than not it's been a slogfest. I'll comment on us because I very rarely miss a game but from what I've seen whenever we've dropped points it's not because the other team is better than us but more often than not it's because our own standards have dropped which is to be expected playing so many games on the spin. It certainly feels like death by football this season.
 

Longshanks

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Don't be. Once Ole is gone we might 1) stop being bottlers, and 2) play well drilled attacking football, befitting of a club of our stature.
Which great manager is going to produce this 'well drilled attacking football' out of interest and more to the point what is well drilled attacking football? Can you define it?
 

RedIan

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We are 14 points better off than at this stage last season and that with inconsistency performances. we just need to recapture some form and have a strong finish to ensure top 4 spot again, no reason why we can go one better than last season and finish 2nd, cant see City crumbling as they are on fire.
 

Crashoutcassius

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Don't be. Once Ole is gone we might 1) stop being bottlers, and 2) play well drilled attacking football, befitting of a club of our stature.
Heard it every year for nearly a decade mate. 'this time is different' 'mourinho guarantees success' ' lvg is a modern manager' blah blah. We are better now than we have been in a long time
 

Bilbo

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I'm with you on the bolded parts. That's probably my reasoning on why I don't think the league is any stronger than in previous seasons. I've watched a lot of football this season and more often than not it's been a slogfest. I'll comment on us because I very rarely miss a game but from what I've seen whenever we've dropped points it's not because the other team is better than us but more often than not it's because our own standards have dropped which is to be expected playing so many games on the spin. It certainly feels like death by football this season.
You make good points and I won't disagree with you. It certainly has been a tough season to accurately gauge and its hard to think of many (any?) classic matches so far. Obviously empty stadiums contributes massively to that. This perhaps counters my original point about overall quality in the league, but I do still feel that the overall strength in depth is a little stronger than we've seen before.

Regarding your bold point I think you are correct, but as you say its unrealistic to expect a consistently high level of football. At this point now I'm really just hoping that we can cement a top four place and if we can add a trophy with that then it'll be a successful step forward for the project
 

Flexdegea

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Don't be. Once Ole is gone we might 1) stop being bottlers, and 2) play well drilled attacking football, befitting of a club of our stature.

Starting to look like you haven't a clue what you are talking about.


The whole well drilled attacking football befitting off the club, I don't even know what that means. We pretty much attack every game. We would defo he very high up on the attacking stats during a game, as well as top scorers in the league and have been scoring in Europe as well.
 

P-Nut

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He's had most of his forwards misfiring for almost an entire season now and still has us 2nd and top goalscorers so far. Fix the leaky defence next year and Greenwood maturing another year and we'll be grand.
 

Majima

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Starting to look like you haven't a clue what you are talking about.


The whole well drilled attacking football befitting off the club, I don't even know what that means. We pretty much attack every game. We would defo he very high up on the attacking stats during a game, as well as top scorers in the league and have been scoring in Europe as well.
Just because you can't see the wood for the trees, doesn't mean no-one else can.

Do we control matches? No. Do we build up from the back easily? No. Are we abnormally heavily reliant on individual brilliance every match regardless of opponent strength? Yes.

You can delude yourself if you want, but those are not the traits of a top side/club. Hence why we won't be winning anything significant until that changes.
 

Majima

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Heard it every year for nearly a decade mate. 'this time is different' 'mourinho guarantees success' ' lvg is a modern manager' blah blah. We are better now than we have been in a long time
Fair enough, after 7 years of it, it does get tiring, and I agree we're better now too. I just ask myself the question, is there a ceiling to how far we can go, playing the way we are now, and I strongly believe the answer is yes. Our squad is very strong now, yet we still have the same flaws that have been there since the beginning with Ole. I just question how far we will go under him.
 

Flexdegea

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Just because you can't see the wood for the trees, doesn't mean no-one else can.

Do we control matches? No. Do we build up from the back easily? No. Are we abnormally heavily reliant on individual brilliance every match regardless of opponent strength? Yes.

You can delude yourself if you want, but those are not the traits of a top side/club. Hence why we won't be winning anything significant until that changes.

Individual brilliance again :lol:

Severely lacking in some areas up front all season but the individual brilliance is carrying us apparently.

City for me have the better individuals across the pitch, so with their advanced patterns of play and coaching it's amazing they aren't scoring at least double what we do.


As I said before I don't even think you know what you are seeing yourself or are you? NO I'd say
 

padzilla

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For Ole to truly win me over, not that such a thing matters, I would like to see us dominate games and put teams on the back foot for the majority of the match, something I have seen little of, since Ronaldo left if I am completely honest. That said we are second only to a side that's gone on a ludicrous winning streak. If we finish the season in second place, after finishing third the year before there could be little argument we have made no progress. If we can sort out a decent GK and CB and a proper number 9 - someone who isn't Moody Martial for example - Ole could well be set up to take us to the next level.
 

gerdm07

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Don't be. Once Ole is gone we might 1) stop being bottlers, and 2) play well drilled attacking football, befitting of a club of our stature.
"Well drilled attacking football" does not sound very creative.

I will only add that we did not bottle the restart to come from 6th to 3rd.
 

Majima

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Which great manager is going to produce this 'well drilled attacking football' out of interest and more to the point what is well drilled attacking football? Can you define it?
Nagelsmann for one. His Leipzig team, on a fraction of our budget showed us up this season. Let's not act like there isn't a league full of managers better than Ole for a start though.

Yes. It's simple.

1) Being able to calmly control matches in each phase, through being extensively drilled in most scenarios that come up in a match. LVG showed us this whilst he was here.
2) Taking the minimum number of touches on the ball, moving the ball from side to side to expose the opponent.
3) Pressing high up as soon as we've lost the ball in the opponents half, forcing the turnover, retrieving the ball asap.
4) Not seeing players making the same mistakes over and over again every match, like they've been neuralyzed.
5) Each player in the squad knowing their role inside out, so the subs can slot in seamlessly.
6) Not being reliant on individual brilliance vs. even the lowest of opponents.

That to me, is the core of a well drilled attacking side.

All things we do not see, and have never saw under Ole.
 
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Majima

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"Well drilled attacking football" does not sound very creative.

I will only add that we did not bottle the restart to come from 6th to 3rd.
I'm not trying to be creative, just stating the fact that we're not a well drilled attacking side in the slightest under Ole.

Who cares? Did you miss the three semi's we bottled last season, and the almost impossible CL groups we again bottled, and the fact we crumbled as soon as going top this season? We are without any doubt bottlers of the highest order under Ole.
 

Majima

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Individual brilliance again :lol:

Severely lacking in some areas up front all season but the individual brilliance is carrying us apparently.

City for me have the better individuals across the pitch, so with their advanced patterns of play and coaching it's amazing they aren't scoring at least double what we do.


As I said before I don't even think you know what you are seeing yourself or are you? NO I'd say
If you seriously believe we share anything in common with the top sides in Europe, then there's no point in continuing the conversation. We are miles off them.
 

Majima

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Why do we put up with these infantile people and their nonsense?
You're calling me infantile, with your name calling, very mature. :lol:

Which of my points are false?

Have I offended you, by calling out Ole's shortcomings? It really is like a cult here it seems.
 

UnofficialDevil

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Individual brilliance again :lol:

Severely lacking in some areas up front all season but the individual brilliance is carrying us apparently.

City for me have the better individuals across the pitch, so with their advanced patterns of play and coaching it's amazing they aren't scoring at least double what we do.


As I said before I don't even think you know what you are seeing yourself or are you? NO I'd say
Yes it is.
 

mu4c_20le

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Individual brilliance again :lol:

Severely lacking in some areas up front all season but the individual brilliance is carrying us apparently.

City for me have the better individuals across the pitch, so with their advanced patterns of play and coaching it's amazing they aren't scoring at least double what we do.


As I said before I don't even think you know what you are seeing yourself or are you? NO I'd say
:lol: Every few weeks there's a new buzz word it seems.
 

Leftback99

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:lol: Every few weeks there's a new buzz word it seems.
'Well drilled' seems to be the new one.

I bet these posters hated the 12/13 season with the 'individual brilliance' of Van Persie, fuming with Cantona in the 90s and demanded Ferguson out when Ronaldo was firing us to the double in 08.
 

Majima

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'Well drilled' seems to be the new one.

I bet these posters hated the 12/13 season with the 'individual brilliance' of Van Persie, fuming with Cantona in the 90s and demanded Ferguson out when Ronaldo was firing us to the double in 08.
It's an undeniable fact. What sides that consistently competes/wins the top trophies isn't 'well drilled'? Your counter point hanging on the greatest manager of all time isn't very solid, especially when even he lost to Guardiola's Barca twice.

I didn't hate the 12/13 season no, but it was easy to see where it was going. 08 season we played amazing football at times (not like 06/07 though), no idea why you brought that season up. In contrast I didn't hate LVG's time here at all. He tried to create a whole new identity for us, it was always going to take a longer time than he got. We was clearly extensively drilled under him, our ceiling would have been high had he achieved it.
 
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Leftback99

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It's an undeniable fact. What sides that consistently competes/wins the top trophies isn't 'well drilled'? Your counter point hanging on the greatest manager of all time isn't very solid, especially when even he lost to Guardiola's Barca twice.

I didn't hate the 12/13 season no, but it was easy to see where it was going. 08 season we played amazing football at times (not like 06/07 though), no idea why you brought that season up. In contrast I didn't hate LVG's time here at all. He tried to create a whole new identity for us, it was always going to take a longer time than he got. We was clearly extensively drilled under him, our ceiling would have been high had he achieved it.
My point was about individual brilliance. Our best sides have always had it, all the top sides do. Do you think Barca would have beaten us without Messi?

The 'well drilled' is just an observation that it was said a few times yesterday and now cropping up elsewhere. The absolute last thing I'd want for us is a brand of LVGs football back, the most boring football I've ever known us play. The guy ruined us.
 

Majima

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My point was about individual brilliance. Our best sides have always had it, all the top sides do. Do you think Barca would have beaten us without Messi?

The 'well drilled' is just an observation that it was said a few times yesterday and now cropping up elsewhere. The absolute last thing I'd want for us is a brand of LVGs football back, the most boring football I've ever known us play. The guy ruined us.
Probably yeah. It would have been more even the first time, with us having Ronaldo, but the 2nd time, their team was far superior.

I'm not denying the importance of individual brilliance, just that, that only takes you so far when competing at the very top, i.e. CL level. Or as we're seeing with City.

Depends what you value I guess. I appreciated the fact all our players knew their roles inside out, and we could keep possession with a technically poor squad. We had poor attacking talent back then. I think LVG's system with our current squad would be a totally different thing altogether. It's harsh to say he ruined us. Not his fault we went from him to Mourinho, polar opposites of each other.
 

Eli Zee

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But which teams have actually got stronger? I'd argue only Westham AV and possibly Everton whereas teams like SU, Liverpool and WBA definitely aren't. Teams like Spurs, Chelsea (under Lampard), Arsenal, Southampton, Wolves haven't improved on last seasons form and the rest of the make up numbers teams are still doing just that. Leicester and ourselves are a constant, Leeds just plays suicidal football.

Just because mid/lower table clubs are taking points off the big boys doesn't mean they've improved and my own personal opinion is that standards are on power with previous seasons with the exception of the bigger clubs which has seen a fall on what's expected of them as a club.
Can we safely assume the big clubs will struggle more this season than others because covid condensed the schedule and they are in more competitions?
 

Mainoldo

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My point was about individual brilliance. Our best sides have always had it, all the top sides do. Do you think Barca would have beaten us without Messi?

The 'well drilled' is just an observation that it was said a few times yesterday and now cropping up elsewhere. The absolute last thing I'd want for us is a brand of LVGs football back, the most boring football I've ever known us play. The guy ruined us.
Barca didn’t play clueless football and then Messi just smacked it in from 20 yards. Not from my memory anyway.
 

Grylte

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Ole wasn't hired to win the league the first couple seasons, he is rebuilding the squad and the club.
Look at the academy, plenty more promising youngsters brought in, i think the future looks very bright.
Also the squad is more likeable, younger and more hungry players who atleast seems to want to be here not just for the money. Most of them atleast.

Personally i hope he gets a long term contract. Am not saying this because i'm Norwegian, i was totally against him even becoming caretaker, it honestly pissed me right off.
I can see the changes he's doing and what he's planning for the future, and i like it.

We've been through a series of shit managers since SAF, and a proper rebuild was needed. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon.
And as a bonus we're in a good position in the league.

People need to stop being so short sighted, i seriously think some of you would be better off by changing to support PSG or City, just spunk out 400M on players if you have a bad year, and you'll be fine.
Not saying that to pretend i think i'm a better supporter, i just think many of you are unrealistic with the expectations after what Moyes, LvG and Mourinho did to our club.
 

Sky1981

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Ole wasn't hired to win the league the first couple seasons, he is rebuilding the squad and the club.
Look at the academy, plenty more promising youngsters brought in, i think the future looks very bright.
Also the squad is more likeable, younger and more hungry players who atleast seems to want to be here not just for the money. Most of them atleast.

Personally i hope he gets a long term contract. Am not saying this because i'm Norwegian, i was totally against him even becoming caretaker, it honestly pissed me right off.
I can see the changes he's doing and what he's planning for the future, and i like it.

We've been through a series of shit managers since SAF, and a proper rebuild was needed. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon.
And as a bonus we're in a good position in the league.

People need to stop being so short sighted, i seriously think some of you would be better off by changing to support PSG or City, just spunk out 400M on players if you have a bad year, and you'll be fine.
Not saying that to pretend i think i'm a better supporter, i just think many of you are unrealistic with the expectations after what Moyes, LvG and Mourinho did to our club.
Isnt that what we're doing? Spunking lots of money when we have a bad year?

Already talk about sancho and haaland.

Oh wait. It's ole. Its a rebuild
 

Sky1981

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Can we safely assume the big clubs will struggle more this season than others because covid condensed the schedule and they are in more competitions?
Not really. Big clubs have plenty of cover.

And covid restrain in same across the board. It evens out the playing field.

All top teams shared the same fixtures as us bar a few days here and there.
 

Grylte

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Isnt that what we're doing? Spunking lots of money when we have a bad year?

Already talk about sancho and haaland.

Oh wait. It's ole. Its a rebuild
The fans and media talk about them, doesn't mean the club will buy both.

He is doing the rebuild the way i prefer it, that's why i support it over Moyes' get rid of the successful backroom staff, and Mourinho wanting only older players.
Had one of the previous managers done it this way, i'd been happy with it, as long as we stayed in the right end of the table.
 

Flexdegea

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If you seriously believe we share anything in common with the top sides in Europe, then there's no point in continuing the conversation. We are miles off them.

We currently are a top side in Europe.

It's not deluded to think it. Unless the bench mark is City or Bayern for advanced patterns, Europe not exactly littered with absolute quality as you be claiming to think is the bench.

We already beat PSG this side. We beat liverpool as well, we've Held our own. We sitting 2nd in a league that has 8 teams still in Europe competition.

.it's not my problem you are obsessing about patterns of play and haven't a clue about football to think it's just down to individual brilliance how we are getting by.
 

gerdm07

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It's an undeniable fact. What sides that consistently competes/wins the top trophies isn't 'well drilled'? Your counter point hanging on the greatest manager of all time isn't very solid, especially when even he lost to Guardiola's Barca twice.

I didn't hate the 12/13 season no, but it was easy to see where it was going. 08 season we played amazing football at times (not like 06/07 though), no idea why you brought that season up. In contrast I didn't hate LVG's time here at all. He tried to create a whole new identity for us, it was always going to take a longer time than he got. We was clearly extensively drilled under him, our ceiling would have been high had he achieved it.
You can't be serious.
 

Longshanks

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Nagelsmann for one. His Leipzig team, on a fraction of our budget showed us up this season. Let's not act like there isn't a league full of managers better than Ole for a start though.

Yes. It's simple.

1) Being able to calmly control matches in each phase, through being extensively drilled in most scenarios that come up in a match. LVG showed us this whilst he was here.
2) Taking the minimum number of touches on the ball, moving the ball from side to side to expose the opponent.
3) Pressing high up as soon as we've lost the ball in the opponents half, forcing the turnover, retrieving the ball asap.
4) Not seeing players making the same mistakes over and over again every match, like they've been neuralyzed.
5) Each player in the squad knowing their role inside out, so the subs can slot in seamlessly.
6) Not being reliant on individual brilliance vs. even the lowest of opponents.

That to me, is the core of a well drilled attacking side.

All things we do not see, and have never saw under Ole.
You want us to re appoint LVG then? All of the above you mention is very much LVG territory.

The obsession with individual brilliance is getting a bit daft really, LVG had some very talented players at his disposal however it didnt feel like it when you watched his team and the most talented players largely struggled with and were somewhat restrained by his well drilled system. There was very much a lack of individual brilliance.

You can coach a team to death but more often than not the very best rely on individual brilliance and it's often the difference between the best and the rest.

If anything the best managers set up there teams to get the best out of there best players, and often the very best teams have players producing outstanding numbers or individual brilliance if you like.
 
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