Wilfred Ndidi - Leicester Player

Mcking

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You are twisting this mate for the sake of arguing. If it was the case then we should compare the stats with defenders as well because they win the ball a lot. At the end of the day when someone call him a ball winner means his role is to win the ball back which one of the common role in midfield a ball winning midfielder.
Yes, you can compare to defenders too. Any defender that wins the ball back a lot at an exceptional rate is also an exceptional ball-winner. Wan-Bissaka for example, is also an exceptional ball-winner and he is not a midfielder.
I'd say you are the one doing the twisting here, and there's been a lot of strawmans. I don't think anyone said anything about ball-winning midfielder or ball-winning role - just ball-winner. A striker can be an exceptional ball-winner, likewise a winger or an attacking midfielder. A centre-half that scores a lot of goals can be regarded as an exceptional goalscorer purely by the amount of goals he scores, nothing to do with his main role in the team or his finishing or movement off the ball. The key words here are ball-winner and goalscorer, they are pretty straightforward words.
 

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Yes, you can compare to defenders too. Any defender that wins the ball back a lot at an exceptional rate is also an exceptional ball-winner. Wan-Bissaka for example, is also an exceptional ball-winner and he is not a midfielder.
I'd say you are the one doing the twisting here, and there's been a lot of strawmans. I don't think anyone said anything about ball-winning midfielder or ball-winning role - just ball-winner. A striker can be an exceptional ball-winner, likewise a winger or an attacking midfielder. A centre-half that scores a lot of goals can be regarded as an exceptional goalscorer purely by the amount of goals he scores, nothing to do with his main role in the team or his finishing or movement off the ball. The key words here are ball-winner and goalscorer, they are pretty straightforward words.
Is it not hard to accept the fact that both of you & @thepolice123 have no idea what's the discussion is and both of you jumped into the conversation & making things up just to suit your argument? :nono:

This is the original post, the discussion has always been a "ball winning midfielder".

 

thepolice123

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Is it not hard to accept the fact that both of you & @thepolice123 have no idea what's the discussion is and both of you jumped into the conversation & making things up just to suit your argument? :nono:

This is the original post, the discussion has always been a "ball winning midfielder".

It started from @Classical Mechanic and our points have always remained consistent. You are bent on twisting the term ball-winning with your warped logic. You're delusional. :lol:
Being a ball winner is a very specific part of the game. I think you're going a little over the top in your sensitivity to the semantics. He is an exceptional ball winner. That doesn't mean he's a great all round player. I'm sure the vast majority of people understand that.
By ball winning, I guess winning the ball on the air and on the ground? Kante is an exceptional ball-winner, and he does it through tackling and intercepting passes. Casemiro is an exceptional ball winner, and he does it through tackling and intercepting passes. The likes of Allan, Wan-Bissaka, Gueye and Ndidi are also exceptional ball winners and they do so through tacking and intercepting passes.
Is there any other way to win the ball on the ground except through tackling, intercepting and sweeping up loose balls, and who are all these ball-winners that are judged in different ways?
I disagree with the crux of your point but it's a pretty pointless argument anyway. In the interest of diplomacy I rephrase it as 'he's the best tackler and interceptor combined in Europe's top 5 leagues so far this season'.
He already said ball winning which is the main point and determined by his tackles and interceptions. Not like he said Ndidi is an exceptional midfielder. What a pointless arguement.

Even if we don't look stats just by watching him play is enough to know that he is defensively superb.
Ball-winning in football context is just talking about tackling and interception mate.

Adding the word "exceptional" means nothing except to describe how good he is at ball-winning. It just English.

Give it a rest mate.:lol:
Dude why are you refusing to get the point? When you go to school you study several subjects. If you are the best student in math class, you are an exceptional maths student. Even if you are the worst in every other class. Period.
 
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UNITED ACADEMY

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It started from @Classical Mechanic and our points have always remained consistent. You are bent on twisting the term ball-winning with your warped logic. You're delusional. :lol:
Why are you so persistent after I just showed you a screen shot where it's all started, it's even being highlighted.

I'm not really sure how am I called a delusional here by you when I am well aware how the discussion started while you just a passenger who just jumped out of nowhere with no clue. :lol:

Here I'll make it bigger the proof just for you the special one how me & classical mechanic started the discussion. Everything started on that highlighted sentence. If you got no clue what's going on then don't started making things up.

 

Mcking

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Is it not hard to accept the fact that both of you & @thepolice123 have no idea what's the discussion is and both of you jumped into the conversation & making things up just to suit your argument? :nono:

This is the original post, the discussion has always been a "ball winning midfielder".

I guess it's got to do with comprehension and interpretation skills. You seem to be ignoring the fact there are nouns, verbs and adjectives. Ball-winning can be a role, an action, a quality. Anders mentioned 'ball-winning midfielder', but it is obvious he was talking about Ndidi's ability to win the ball in the role of a ball-winning midfielder, NOT his all-round ability in the role of a ball-winning midfielder.
This is the first post I replied to:
I'm not expecting him to be great all round player. An exceptional is a world class definition, and he's no where near the world class ball winner compared to others out there who aren't only judged based on their tackles & interception.
He is a world class ball-winner and every inch as effective as Casemiro and Kante at winning the ball back. You have followed the post us with many other posts arguing the same thing, the same point, including this:
The real issue here is the "exceptional" word not the ball winner. Kante & Casemiro are exceptional ball winner not because of their interception & tackles only but also they have crazy stamina, intelligent, they can still control a pass from their team mate, reliable distributor, mobile, aggressive, & good physically. Calling him exceptional based on tackle & interception stats reminds me of how people judged Morgan Schneiderlin.
Stamina, distribution, aggression, mobility, intelligence and the other things you mentioned aren't ball-winning, they are just qualities that some midfielders have. Kante has those and that makes him a better all-round [ball-winning] midfielder. Lingard has those, but he isn't even a ball-winner or a ball-winning midfielder simply because he doesn't win the ball back. Speaking strictly from a ball-winning sense, Kante and Ndidi are exceptional because of their tackles and interceptions. Speaking loosely on their roles as ball-winning midfielders, Kante is better because he is more polished and has other qualities.
 

thepolice123

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Why are you so persistent after I just showed you a screen shot where it's all started, it's even being highlighted.

I'm not really sure how am I called a delusional here by you when I am well aware how the discussion started while you just a passenger who just jumped out of nowhere with no clue. :lol:

Here I'll make it bigger the proof just for you the special one how me & classical mechanic started the discussion. Everything started on that highlighted sentence. If you got no clue what's going on then don't started making things up.

It has already been made clear several times that we were talking specifically about ball-winning as singular, precise skill backed up by statistics.

He even made a post to clearly define himself.

Being a ball winner is a very specific part of the game. I think you're going a little over the top in your sensitivity to the semantics. He is an exceptional ball winner. That doesn't mean he's a great all round player. I'm sure the vast majority of people understand that.
At this point, it has already been established that we are not talking Ndidi in the ball-winning midfielder role like in FM19. We are just talking about Ndidi and his ball-winning skill which is quantifiable and easily backed up by statistics.

But this your arguement why Ndidi is not "exceptional".

The real issue here is the "exceptional" word not the ball winner. Kante & Casemiro are exceptional ball winner not because of their interception & tackles only but also they have crazy stamina, intelligent, they can still control a pass from their team mate, reliable distributor, mobile, aggressive, & good physically. Calling him exceptional based on tackle & interception stats reminds me of how people judged Morgan Schneiderlin.
You see that's the real problem here. Its not because we do not understand you. We understand that you have a case that players like Kante and Casemiro could possibly be better footballers because of so-and-so. You on the hand seems to have a very bad grasp and comprehension of the English languange.

Saying Ndidi is an exceptional ball-winner because he is a reliable distributor and can control a pass is an illogical statement. Being a reliable distributor and controlling a pass has got zero relation to ball-winning. Zero. You using this to support your argument naturally makes it void.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I guess it's got to do with comprehension and interpretation skills. You seem to be ignoring the fact there are nouns, verbs and adjectives. Ball-winning can be a role, an action, a quality. Anders mentioned 'ball-winning midfielder', but it is obvious he was talking about Ndidi's ability to win the ball in the role of a ball-winning midfielder, NOT his all-round ability in the role of a ball-winning midfielder.
This is the first post I replied to:

He is a world class ball-winner and every inch as effective as Casemiro and Kante at winning the ball back. You have followed the post us with many other posts arguing the same thing, the same point, including this:

Stamina, distribution, aggression, mobility, intelligence and the other things you mentioned aren't ball-winning, they are just qualities that some midfielders have. Kante has those and that makes him a better all-round [ball-winning] midfielder. Lingard has those, but he isn't even a ball-winner or a ball-winning midfielder simply because he doesn't win the ball back. Speaking strictly from a ball-winning sense, Kante and Ndidi are exceptional because of their tackles and interceptions. Speaking loosely on their roles as ball-winning midfielders, Kante is better because he is more polished and has other qualities.
So first you said the argument wasn't about "ball winning midfielder" & that's why we can mix defenders into it. Now you changed your mind it's about "ball winning midfielder" but with a little twist of excuses to suit your argument.

This is a football forum ffs, it's a common role in football that you can even find it in internet. Some people call it ball winning midfielder, some people call it destroyer or whatever. At the end of the day it refers to a role of midfielder. Don't need to be rocket science trying to twist the name of footballer role into different meaning.

Stamina, aggression, mobility, intelligence are necessary for ball winning midfield. If you don't have them, you can't win tackles or win the ball back as a ball winning midfield. Being a reliable distributor will also important to be a ball winning midfielder in top level club, not saying he needs to be good distributor. Reliable in this sense means at least not giving the ball away after winning it back & pass it to your more a creative player. What's the point of winning the ball back but end up giving it away 2 seconds later.

Those are aspects you can't just judge based on number of interception & tackles. Morgan Schneiderlin when he was at Southampton was an example that I mentioned.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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It has already been made clear several times that we were talking specifically about ball-winning as singular, precise skill backed up by statistics.

He even made a post to clearly define himself.



At this point, it has already been established that we are not talking Ndidi in the ball-winning midfielder role like in FM19. We are just talking about Ndidi and his ball-winning skill which is quantifiable and easily backed up by statistics.

But this your arguement why Ndidi is not "exceptional".



You see that's the real problem here. Its not because we do not understand you. We understand that you have a case that players like Kante and Casemiro could possibly be better footballers because of so-and-so. You on the hand seems to have a very bad grasp and comprehension of the English languange.

Saying Ndidi is an exceptional ball-winner because he is a reliable distributor and can control a pass is an illogical statement. Being a reliable distributor and controlling a pass has got zero relation to ball-winning. Zero. You using this to support your argument naturally makes it void.
Sorry I can't make the picture bigger. You just need to actually zoom in the picture to be able to read them. That's where the discussion started "ball winning midfielder". One of many midfielder role which their job acts like the water carrier or the destroyer, win the ball back & supply the ball to more of the creative player.

if you want to talk something else then just don't bother talking again. You were the ones jumped into someone's conversation and making things up to suit your own argument.

Being reliable distributor is also needed for ball winning midfield to play for top club, you can't afford to lose the ball a few seconds after win the ball back. At the end of the day it's their job to supply the ball to a more creative player. Can't control the ball is also means you lose the ball easily in dangerous position which something you can't do playing in top club. That's what makes Kante & Casemiro to play for top club. While player like Bakayoko & Schneiderlin struggled as soon as they went to top club.
 

thepolice123

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Sorry I can't make the picture bigger. You just need to actually zoom in the picture to be able to read them. That's where the discussion started "ball winning midfielder". One of many midfielder role which their job acts like the water carrier or the destroyer, win the ball back & supply the ball to more of the creative player.

if you want to talk something else then just don't bother talking again. You were the ones jumped into someone's conversation and making things up to suit your own argument.

Being reliable distributor is also needed for ball winning midfield to play for top club, you can't afford to lose the ball a few seconds after win the ball back. At the end of the day it's their job to supply the ball to a more creative player. Can't control the ball is also means you lose the ball easily in dangerous position which something you can't do playing in top club. That's what makes Kante & Casemiro to play for top club. While player like Bakayoko & Schneiderlin struggled as soon as they went to top club.
It started when someone said Ndidi is an exceptional ball-winner because he topped tackling and interception stats in whole of Europe.

The whole thing is just revolving around you coming up with new terms for ball-winning, which is pure garbage. Whatever said above about ball-winning is completely irrevalant and just bad English.

Give it a rest mate. You're truly having a mare.:lol:
 

Mcking

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Sorry I can't make the picture bigger. You just need to actually zoom in the picture to be able to read them. That's where the discussion started "ball winning midfielder". One of many midfielder role which their job acts like the water carrier or the destroyer, win the ball back & supply the ball to more of the creative player.

if you want to talk something else then just don't bother talking again. You were the ones jumped into someone's conversation and making things up to suit your own argument.

Being reliable distributor is also needed for ball winning midfield to play for top club, you can't afford to lose the ball a few seconds after win the ball back. At the end of the day it's their job to supply the ball to a more creative player. Can't control the ball is also means you lose the ball easily in dangerous position which something you can't do playing in top club. That's what makes Kante & Casemiro to play for top club. While player like Bakayoko & Schneiderlin struggled as soon as they went to top club.
Interpretation and context. The only argument here is exclusively whether Ndidi is an exceptional ball-winner or not, otherwise, there is no argument. You can read your convo with [Classical Mechanic] which followed andersj' posts. Your replies show that you consider the [Classical Mechanic] point as the same with the context of andersj' posts, yet you have gone onto many wierd angles which aren't inclusive to the context of what was a straightforward point. It is backed up by facts that Ndidi is indeed one of the best around. Your straight-out refusal to acknowledge the point that is being made has contributed to extreme pedantry and monotony. It's not too tough to spot a discussion that is just going in circles.
As you requested though, I won't bother replying again.
 

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It started when someone said Ndidi is an exceptional ball-winner because he topped tackling and interception stats in whole of Europe.

The whole thing is just revolving around you coming up with new terms for ball-winning, which is pure garbage. Whatever said above about ball-winning is completely irrevalant and just bad English.
That's making things up again to suit your argument. It doesn't show anything in the screenshot that I showed above. It's not a rocket science or anything to do with english, it's just one of midfielder's role.

Give it a rest mate. You're truly having a mare.:lol:
Yeah I'll give it a rest. I can't stand that you are still in a denial even with screen shot. :lol:
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Interpretation and context. The only argument here is exclusively whether Ndidi is an exceptional ball-winner or not, otherwise, there is no argument. You can read your convo with [Classical Mechanic] which followed andersj' posts. Your replies show that you consider the [Classical Mechanic] point as the same with the context of andersj' posts, yet you have gone onto many wierd angles which aren't inclusive to the context of what was a straightforward point. It is backed up by facts that Ndidi is indeed one of the best around. Your straight-out refusal to acknowledge the point that is being made has contributed to extreme pedantry and monotony. It's not too tough to spot a discussion that is just going in circles.
As you requested though, I won't bother replying again.
I think it's fair to say that I don't think he's exceptional, I don't know what's the issue here. The context of being exceptional will be in the example of player like Kante & Casemiro in my view and I don't think he's even there. Classical Mechanic said he is in their level, andersj didn't say he's in their level. Some others say he's good but still below Kante & Casemiro's level.

Simply I have explained it before and even give an example of how number of interception & tackle alone can mislead in term of judging individual players, for example Morgan Schneiderlin & also the debate of Kante vs Herrera in 2016/2017 season due to Herrera having the better stats in one of the aspect.
 

thepolice123

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When you look at the statistics so far this season he has 3,6 interceptions every 90 min. Of midfielders with more than 600 min in the top five leagues in Europe, Casamiro and Mascarell comes closest with 3,0. Meaning he has twenty percent more than the second best players. In terms of tackles he makes 6,7 attempts per 90 min (5 successful tackles per 90 min). Allan and Romeu is the only ones that comes close with 6,6 and 6,3, but while Ndidi success rate is 74,6 % their success rate is significantly lower (66,67 % and 60 %). Usually I would not put too much weight on these numbers, but these are truly exceptional.

His numbers is actually strikingly similar to Kante when Leicester won the league. Kante made 6,9 tackles with a success rate of 75,36 % and had 4,6 (!) interception every 90 min, but not quite as good. That being said, the Leicester team of today keeps the ball more giving Ndidi less of a chance to match his numbers. And Kante is one of a kind, to be honest. It is also worth remembering that Ndidi is a couple of years younger than Kante was at the same time.

I'm not sure if he would be a great fit for a team with even higher ambitions than Leicester. But it is worth noticing that he does this for a very good team in the Premier League. It is also worth noticing that he keeps improving on all areas all the time. He is still a couple of years younger than players like Kante, KdB, Mane, VvD, Salah, Winjaldum, Fabinho etc was when they arrived at Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool. If he is not ready at 22, I can see him being more than ready at 24.
Is "exceptional" ball winner only be viewed based on tackles & interception. I expect an "exceptional ball winner" not to be a limit midfielder. The hype is unreal when it comes to only tackles & interception just like Morgan Schneiderlin was.

Kante & Casemiro are example of exceptional.

Both Gueye & Partey are up ahead of him at the moment.

Zakaria is another player who has the same potential or could be higher with cheaper fees.

Even McTomminay has talent to become top ball winning midfielder in the future & cost zero for us.

I'm sure Leicester won't sell this guy for cheap, can see them trying to sell for above 50m and he's not that exceptional to spend that much.
What have you got to say now?

That's making things up again to suit your argument. It doesn't show anything in the screenshot that I showed above. It's not a rocket science or anything to do with english, it's just one of midfielder's role.



Yeah I'll give it a rest. I can't stand that you are still in a denial even with screen shot. :lol:
 

thepolice123

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Interpretation and context. The only argument here is exclusively whether Ndidi is an exceptional ball-winner or not, otherwise, there is no argument. You can read your convo with [Classical Mechanic] which followed andersj' posts. Your replies show that you consider the [Classical Mechanic] point as the same with the context of andersj' posts, yet you have gone onto many wierd angles which aren't inclusive to the context of what was a straightforward point. It is backed up by facts that Ndidi is indeed one of the best around. Your straight-out refusal to acknowledge the point that is being made has contributed to extreme pedantry and monotony. It's not too tough to spot a discussion that is just going in circles.
As you requested though, I won't bother replying again.
The funny thing is that he could have just said Kante and Casemiro are better footballers which I might have agreed. But he seems utterly fixated and confused on this "ball-winning midfielder" football jargon.

By similar virtues, Chris Smalling is a better "ball-playing defender" than David Luiz because he is faster, stronger in the air and defends better on the overrall. And obviously because you need to win the ball before you can even play the ball. :houllier::lol:
 

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What have you got to say now?
What's your point there?

Some poster use stats only to judge players, some poster don't. I think I have said this 10x already that some number in stats don't justify enough to judge an individual player which I have given enough example from it regarding Schneiderlin and others.
 

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The funny thing is that he could have just said Kante and Casemiro are better footballers which I might have agreed. But he seems utterly fixated and confused on this "ball-winning midfielder" football jargon.

By similar virtues, Chris Smalling is a better "ball-playing defender" than David Luiz because he is faster, stronger in the air and defends better on the overrall. And obviously because you need to win the ball before you can even play the ball. :houllier::lol:
It's a midfielder's role. The three of them are playing in the same role. Not sure why are you still in denial. :rolleyes:

The Smalling & Luiz is another lazy comparison again. You crack me up with your crazy twisting & nonsense :lol: If number in stats matter for being who's the better passer between Smalling & Luiz, you would consider Smalling the better one. :lol:
 

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Leading tackles per game in Europe's top 5 leagues, and 2nd for interceptions
 

Based Adnan

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His development with the ball at his feet has been spectacular. If we are going to be in for a Leicester player it should be him. Absolutuely immense DM.
 

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His development with the ball at his feet has been spectacular. If we are going to be in for a Leicester player it should be him. Absolutuely immense DM.
Or his development suggests that a proper coach can do the same with McTominay and we save 80m pounds.
 

croadyman

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McTominay is more of a box to box for me. They can both play in the same midfield.
Scott gives his all for the team but Ndidi just seems a level up for me,unfortunately I can't see Leicester selling him any time soon.
 

Seij

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How does Leicester keep signing and developing these world class defensive midfielders?
 

Seij

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Good scouting... Something which I don't think we've had for years.
It's seriously impressive that they're where they are now after losing Mahrez, Kante, Maguire. It's not like they have the money or long history of success to be able to attract to players. Hell, they even made Danny fecking Drinkwater look decent.

What a difference having a good recruiting system with a good manager makes.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Good scouting... Something which I don't think we've had for years.
Given we used to pick up bargains earlier, and the club was huge before the Glazers I'm not so sure our scouting network can be weak as people put it. Maybe the managers and Woodward have ignored talents brought to their attention in the chase for bigger names and immediate success? It seems hard to believe that under SAF given how enormous a club we became our scouting machinery was poor and not very expansive.
 

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No coach is turning McT into anything substantial.
This

I'm not on the McTominay train, l hope I'm wrong but l don't see an elite level player, just decent premiership player.



Ndidi is worth about 40m, so Woodward would end up paying 70m.
 

M Bison

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This

I'm not on the McTominay train, l hope I'm wrong but l don't see an elite level player, just decent premiership player.



Ndidi is worth about 40m, so Woodward would end up paying 70m.
You’re miles off with that, he’s comfortably worth twice.
 

SambaBoy

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Thought we should have been in for him when he was playing in Belgium.

A top player who I thought may struggle at Leicester due to being compared to Kante and replacing him, something Mendy and Amartey struggled with, but has grown into that role and is slightly different. Their midfield is exceptional and he is a vital cog in it.
 

Un4givableB

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You’re miles off with that, he’s comfortably worth twice.
80m for him, you think so? Not arguing the point but 80m seems too much, I've watched him play for Nigeria more than I've watched play for Leicester and never thought that's an 80m player.
 

matsdf

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80m for him, you think so? Not arguing the point but 80m seems too much, I've watched him play for Nigeria more than I've watched play for Leicester and never thought that's an 80m player.
I don't think you would get him for anything less than 70m (and even that's probably not enough), especially since it's Leicester and they do not need the money.
 

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80m for him, you think so? Not arguing the point but 80m seems too much, I've watched him play for Nigeria more than I've watched play for Leicester and never thought that's an 80m player.
Maybe you just dont rate DMs

He's the best in the league and playing better than Maguire did last season.
 

Superunknown

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He was absolutely immense yesterday. I really, really like the look of that Leicester midfield and they look like a hard side to play against. Must be so fun for Tielemans and Maddison when they know they've got a player like Ndidi alongside them to help them out.

The plaudits should go to the scouts and the coaching staff. They're finding the right players for their side and they're coaching them to play good, eye-catching attacking football whilst also being defensively very solid. It's a fantastic blueprint for lots of other similar sized clubs, and definitely something that United could learn from.