Will Ronnie be booed?

Feedingseagulls

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Most people have grown up with a plurality of media and many have even studied it formally and are very aware of the implicit ironies. You on the other hand often seemed mired in a pre-lapsarian fluffy bunny world of your own.
If it were the case that most could adequately interpret different media portrayal thanks to their exposure and study, then you'd expect them to come up with somewhat more informed views - unfortunately the vast majority fail to exhibit any such insight.

There are also many films which would struggle to produce any useful message about either society or the human condition given their subject matter and intended role as 'entertainment'.

I don't see the world as at all 'fluffy bunny' - I do see many people carefully not looking at the problems though - surely they are the people with more of a 'fluffy bunny' mentality.
 

Feedingseagulls

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You have an addiction to declaring victory for yourself

Even though you're entirely wrong!!!

Ronaldo gets a massive rousing ovation on his return, the loudest reception of the season. Before and after, Viva Ronaldo has barely had an airing. And you expect me to believe that welcome was the actions of the usual atmospheric support?

You're in a major minority if you feel Ronaldo did nothing wrong this summer. I clearly outlined you precisely how he was. If you choose to wrongly believe something else, that's your business

And apologies, I did make a mistake you're quite right. You based your assessment on two people sat next to the North stand wall, rather than being in the stand with you
Except you still can't provide a single example of anything that was wrong as opposed to something you disliked despite so many attempts. (I seem to remember 3 overlapping lists - each submitted after the previous had failed.)

You decided to categorise all Ronaldo-ignorers as regular singers - and all Ronaldo-welcomers as non-singers - with no evidence.

I've just given you evidence that contradicts those assumptions of yours - it also counts against your categorising all those who disagree with you as Jcls/fanboys etc.

Sorry to disturb your prejuduces so.
 

Plechazunga

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Theatre is as dead as mutton, completely superseded by film and kept in play by working class subsidies to an elitist and largely incompetent cast.
we no longer train people to be able to understand such issues as embedded in live performance.
Not so sure either of those are right. Film's been around for a century, but that century's been far from devoid of good relevant theatre.

Don't think a lack of 'training' of audiences is the issue either. For instance, throughout the seventies and eighties John McGrath toured his 7-84 theatre company around the country, much of the time in little villages in the Highlands, where a lot of the audience had never seen theatre performed, and certainly not theatre that was about issues close to them, like what Thatcherism was doing to their communities. Those shows by all accounts were electric, incredible occasions, that people remember vividly to this day as genuinely moving and important events in their lives, despite their lack of experience of the form.

I think society has to be in a certain condition for theatre to be a living form, though. In a society like ours, where there is a general assumption that all options have been tried and a sort of thoughtless, dead consensus on how we should govern the country and live our lives, theatre is little more than either middle-class intellectual backslapping or middle-class attempts at social worthiness. It has nothing to offer, and film, which does escapism and imagining utterly different worlds more easily, is ascendent. (Although, English film is similarly shit, and in similar ways: middle-class directors setting films in council estates because they think that's real, but turning out something that's not real at all because they don't understand the world they're setting it in.)

In Romania under the communists, theatre was very vibrant, original, important to people, and of a high standard. It was one of the only public places where subversive conversation was possible, because although the scripts were vetted, the actors could change them subtly, or the director could use a classic play to comment on the issues of the day and ridicule people metaphorically. Everyone knew who/what they were talking about, but you couldn't pin anything on them. Now the commies are more or less out and the society's freer, the theatre's shit. The film's starting to become really good though.

Theatre started out in the Dionysia, as the one point in the year when the whole city (well, the free men) could actually debate their values, and even today, if it doesn't involve people politically it hardly ever works. (There are exceptions, like Tom Stoppard and arguably Oscar Wilde, where the writer is of such genius that he can make anything enthralling, even if it's all basically about his own clever head rather than the world outside).

There is a valid comparison with football, in that both of them, when they work well, create a massively powerful connection / feedback loop between the crowd and the players that makes you all feel like one meta-being. I'd say that's happened in about 1% of plays I've been to though, and maybe 20% of football matches.

Anyway, back to Ronaldo... boooooooooooooooooo...er, feckin hell that was amazing.....right then.... tear him for his bad hairdos!
 

Feedingseagulls

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Brad's first attempt at saying what Ronaldo did wrong this summer...

"I thus felt that maybe I needed a new challenge. On the other hand, I had never hidden that I wished to play in Spain, namely at Real Madrid, and I thought this could be the moment to do it. Manchester and Real are probably the two biggest clubs in the world and that would never be an easy decision. Besides the new challenge that I sought, everyone understands that the Spanish lifestyle and culture are a lot closer to the Portuguese ones. These were, in fact, the reasons that made me ponder."

"But we all ended up concluding that I should continue wearing Manchester United's number 7 shirt. It won't be a sacrifice for me, but a huge honour. I have important things to continue winning in England. And I will give my best for Manchester. I want to defend the European title and help Manchester become world champions. That, of course, without forgetting about winning the Premier League and the remaining competitions."

"What I publicly said, perhaps naively, I totally admit. People have to understand one thing: I reached a dream club like Manchester at the age of 18. I fulfilled a dream. But, even then, I had in my mind the wish to play some years in England and then play in Spain.

"I was already thinking about that back then and I never stopped doing my best because of that. Why lie? I won't be a hypocrite and say the opposite of what I think, like others do. I said exactly what I think: I have the dream of playing at Real Madrid and I thought it was time to leave. People can't criticize that I wanted to fulfil this dream I have had since I was a child."
So the only admission to anything at all questionable here is that he admits what he said publically which might include something naive.

Other than that he is just pointing out he eventually was interested in going this summer.


None of this actually constitutes him doing anything 'wrong' which I assure all readers, was what Brad said he was producing back on page 16.

His subsequent efforts were no better - yet he keeps telling us that Cristiano was 'wrong'.
 

Feedingseagulls

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Not so sure either of those are right. Film's been around for a century, but that century's been far from devoid of good relevant theatre.

Don't think a lack of 'training' of audiences is the issue either. For instance, throughout the seventies and eighties John McGrath toured his 7-84 theatre company around the country, much of the time in little villages in the Highlands, where a lot of the audience had never seen theatre performed, and certainly not theatre that was about issues close to them, like what Thatcherism was doing to their communities. Those shows by all accounts were electric, incredible occasions, that people remember vividly to this day as genuinely moving and important events in their lives, despite their lack of experience of the form.

I think society has to be in a certain condition for theatre to be a living form, though. In a society like ours, where there is a general assumption that all options have been tried and a sort of thoughtless, dead consensus on how we should govern the country and live our lives, theatre is little more than either middle-class intellectual backslapping or middle-class attempts at social worthiness. It has nothing to offer, and film, which does escapism and imagining utterly different worlds more easily, is ascendent. (Although, English film is similarly shit, and in similar ways: middle-class directors setting films in council estates because they think that's real, but turning out something that's not real at all because they don't understand the world they're setting it in.)

In Romania under the communists, theatre was very vibrant, original, important to people, and of a high standard. It was one of the only public places where subversive conversation was possible, because although the scripts were vetted, the actors could change them subtly, or the director could use a classic play to comment on the issues of the day and ridicule people metaphorically. Everyone knew who/what they were talking about, but you couldn't pin anything on them. Now the commies are more or less out and the society's freer, the theatre's shit. The film's starting to become really good though.

Theatre started out in the Dionysia, as the one point in the year when the whole city (well, the free men) could actually debate their values, and even today, if it doesn't involve people politically it hardly ever works. (There are exceptions, like Tom Stoppard and arguably Oscar Wilde, where the writer is of such genius that he can make anything enthralling, even if it's all basically about his own clever head rather than the world outside).

There is a valid comparison with football, in that both of them, when they work well, create a massively powerful connection / feedback loop between the crowd and the players that makes you all feel like one meta-being. I'd say that's happened in about 1% of plays I've been to though, and maybe 20% of football matches.

Anyway, back to Ronaldo... boooooooooooooooooo...er, feckin hell that was amazing.....right then.... tear him for his bad hairdos!
I rather intended the 'training' remark to be about those perpetually exposed to various different stimuli - in terms of telling them about what was different and how therefore to best engage.

When people are naturally inclined to pay attention, as per your Highland example, this becomes less necessary. It's the bored who need their arses kicked tbh. Attention spans of less than 30 secs, as we now produce, will not help anyone make any decent points.

It's a breeding ground for propaganda that film, radio and TV feed I reckon.

It's bloody dangerous.

Good Rock-concerts or Classical performances are better than film or theatre at producing the extended-inclusive-one.
 

B Cantona

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So the only admission to anything at all questionable here is that he admits what he sid publically which might include something naive.

Other than that he is just pointing out he eventually was interested in going this summer.


None of this actually constitutes him doing anything 'wrong' which I assure all readers, was what Brad said he was producing back on page 16.

His subsequent efforts were no better - yet he keeps telling us that Cristiano was 'wrong'.
'A' for effort mate

But you're not drawing me back into debating whether Ronaldo acting in a way to deserve the reaction he is recieving from United supporters this season (with the notable exception of his comeback, for which I've given a highly plausable and entirely possible explanation, which you dismiss out of hand on the evidence that you sat fairly close to a couple of old farts in another stand to you)

People are free to hold their opinions. The majority of people on here, and going by the 'Viva Ronaldo' threshold the majority of people at OT, agree with me. You haven't produced anything near a convincing arguement to back up your opinion, which is why, and I think this is accurate, NO-ONE agrees with your version of analysis

If one or two folk come out of the woodwork to support you, I'll hold my hands up for that statement. You'll merely be in a minority of a handful with your opinion
 

B Cantona

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Oh and of interest FS, I can speak the way you do on here too. I too can use 'expert language', as was necessary to use during my Phd papers. Normal conversational talk just don't cut it at that level

Do you see me using that kind of language here? No. Because it isn't necessary. You want to communicate with folk and share opinion and understanding, not talk down to and patronise people. The worst thing is, your language isn't even 'expert', you just pluck fanciful words out of the air and hack them together to form a sentence, as a means of pretending to be an expert on the subject you speak. For example:

"You are either intellectually incapable of discernment or singularly unlucky in your lapses of concentratrion"

Pure, unadulterated, bullshit. Save your effort and just call me a twat eh!
 

Feedingseagulls

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'A' for effort mate

But you're not drawing me back into debating whether Ronaldo acting in a way to deserve the reaction he is recieving from United supporters this season (with the notable exception of his comeback, for which I've given a highly plausable and entirely possible explanation, which you dismiss out of hand on the evidence that you sat fairly close to a couple of old farts in another stand to you)

People are free to hold their opinions. The majority of people on here, and going by the 'Viva Ronaldo' threshold the majority of people at OT, agree with me. You haven't produced anything near a convincing arguement to back up your opinion, which is why, and I think this is accurate, NO-ONE agrees with your version of analysis

If one or two folk come out of the woodwork to support you, I'll hold my hands up for that statement. You'll merely be in a minority of a handful with your opinion
Actually, given the very few you reckon sing, Ronaldo's support is pretty good.

You gave no evidence at all for your idea about the Ronaldo-singers being fanboys etc who didn't sing at other times - you just plucked it out of thin air AND attempted to use it to denigrate another group of Utd fans - unjustly.

You made an assumption that suited your case - you continue to do so.

Btw. Propaganda is effective for a reason - lazy thinkers are easily caught.
 

jojojo

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The sad thing is that what usually gets a United crowd going is an excited bunch of away fans, without that it tends to be the team that have to get the fans going - it's only the odd game where it's the other way round. Ron was one of the players that got the fans going (and much as people resent it - Viva Ronaldo was extra noise last season, not the chant that drowned out "worthier" songs)

I missed the WBA game but from what I heard on TV and what I've heard since it sounds like the WBA fans wouldn't do their job and apart from a couple of choruses at the start of each half, only the goals really got a response. Except that the response to one of the goals was a bunch of fans trying to sing and another bunch of fans trying to drown it out with different songs - not that different to when the away fans sing - almost as awkward reaction as the one from the scorer.
 

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Oh and of interest FS, I can speak the way you do on here too. I too can use 'expert language', as was necessary to use during my Phd papers.

For example:

"You are either intellectually incapable of discernment or singularly unlucky in your lapses of concentratrion"

Pure, unadulterated, bullshit. Save your effort and just call me a twat eh!
Actually, no - because it's rather more directed than that...

Given the facts, you have proven incapable of discerning truth from rumour - of working out what has definitely been said compared to what you want to interpret someone as saying.

So...

Either your ability to judge such things is poor or you have been unfortunate in that you were not really 'on your game' on this occasion.

Bit different from you being a twat (which may also be true) - which would probably imply you were doing it deliberately (also possible however).
 

B Cantona

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(and much as people resent it - Viva Ronaldo was extra noise last season, not the chant that drowned out "worthier" songs)
I think that's a critical mistake actually

I know many people who think Ronaldo let us down badly this summer, and are reacting by not chanting Viva Ronaldo. However, not one of them to my mind 'resents' the chanting last season. We were all belting it out along with the next man (apart from the ones who still couldn't bring themselves to chant, and in the North stand, there are many)

FS has tried to allege that there's been some kind of hate campaign amongst United supporters concerning Ronaldo for some time, and its just not true. It's folk own inability to distinguish the press and other teams fans (who we shouldn't be giving a crap about) and our own

The reason Ronaldo is getting the reaction he is this season, is because the majority of United supporters, certainly the majority who contribute to the atmosphere, is because United fans want to stand up for themselves in a non-disruptive manner, they're extremely dissapointed with him and not yet ready to praise him again, or they simply don't feel what they did for him last season. A player recieves the adulation he did last season through love. Love based on his brilliance and worth, but love. And when you stop feeling it, you stop singing for him

I doubt I'll sing Viva Ronaldo again, because he's tainted it for me now. And I don't think he'll be around long enough to say 'do a Ferdinand', and win the supporters back over with his attitude and committment
 

Feedingseagulls

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FS has tried to allege that there's been some kind of hate campaign amongst United supporters concerning Ronaldo for some time, and its just not true.
You appear to be confusing me with Jase here - that was one of his themes.


However, there surely are those who have been ambivalent/antagonistic towards Ronaldo for some time, for different reasons, who are now delighted to have new allies in their attacks. There are a few historical Ronaldo-haters on the cafe for example.
 

Feedingseagulls

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The reason Ronaldo is getting the reaction he is this season, is because the majority of United supporters, certainly the majority who contribute to the atmosphere, is because United fans want to stand up for themselves in a non-disruptive manner, they're extremely dissapointed with him and not yet ready to praise him again, or they simply don't feel what they did for him last season. A player recieves the adulation he did last season through love. Love based on his brilliance and worth, but love. And when you stop feeling it, you stop singing for him

I doubt I'll sing Viva Ronaldo again, because he's tainted it for me now. And I don't think he'll be around long enough to say 'do a Ferdinand', and win the supporters back over with his attitude and committment
So - as pointed out earlier - you'll let the expression of your personal feelings trump the good of the team.


Just what kind of a fair-weather supporter are you? :D
 

B Cantona

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You appear to be confusing me with Jase here - that was one of his themes.


However, there surely are those who have been ambivalent/antagonistic towards Ronaldo for some time, for different reasons, who are now delighted to have new allies in their attacks. There are a few historical Ronaldo-haters on the cafe for example.
Don't make me find your post where you claimed me and Spoony were part of a anti Ronaldo hate campaign, hence why you defend your position so passionately

So - as pointed out earlier - you'll let the expression of your personal feelings trump the good of the team.


Just what kind of a fair-weather supporter are you? :D
I can't attend United matches currently. But say against Newcastle, I chanted from start to finish, despite the frustration of the game itself. I didn't utter anything pro or anti Ronaldo once. That's fair weather or disruptive support is it?

Yes I let personal feelings affect my expressions. Everybody does. The people who have a problem with Ronaldo's conduct during the summer are, from my experience, largely those that feel the strongest about this club, their support and passion towards it. Fair weather they are not, and they're not trumping United's chances. I don't understand this bizarre view that United fans are obligated to chant Ronaldo songs somehow? They're chanting for other players instead, or taking the piss out of opponents. How is that disruptive?

You're a one man propaganda machine FS
 

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I have no idea either, yet.
So - as pointed out earlier - you'll let the expression of your personal feelings trump the good of the team.


Just what kind of a fair-weather supporter are you? :D
christ on a bike, I'm not the most ambitious bloke in the world when it comes to life goals, but if I spend my 50th birthday perpetuating an unsettable argument with Brad on the internet then I'll be really depressed. No offence Brad - if it had to be some random person that i'd never met then you wouldn't be the worst I suppose.
 

B Cantona

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christ on a bike, I'm not the most ambitious bloke in the world when it comes to life goals, but if I spend my 50th birthday perpetuating an unsettable argument with Brad on the internet then I'll be really depressed. No offence Brad - if it had to be some random person that i'd never met then you wouldn't be the worst I suppose.
:lol: None taken!

Is it Feeding's 50th birthday today?
 

Feedingseagulls

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Don't make me find your post where you claimed me and Spoony were part of a anti Ronaldo hate campaign, hence why you defend your position so passionately



I can't attend United matches currently. But say against Newcastle, I chanted from start to finish, despite the frustration of the game itself. I didn't utter anything pro or anti Ronaldo once. That's fair weather or disruptive support is it?

Yes I let personal feelings affect my expressions. Everybody does. The people who have a problem with Ronaldo's conduct during the summer are, from my experience, largely those that feel the strongest about this club, their support and passion towards it. Fair weather they are not, and they're not trumping United's chances. I don't understand this bizarre view that United fans are obligated to chant Ronaldo songs somehow? They're chanting for other players instead, or taking the piss out of opponents. How is that disruptive?

You're a one man propaganda machine FS
Yet you're the one who is letting your entirely distorted view of events pander to some weird emotional need and then allowing it to affect how you support Utd to the detriment of the team.

That's why I'm using 'fair weather' - because you only consider Utd (in reality) once your personal needs are met.
 

Feedingseagulls

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christ on a bike, I'm not the most ambitious bloke in the world when it comes to life goals, but if I spend my 50th birthday perpetuating an unsettable argument with Brad on the internet then I'll be really depressed. No offence Brad - if it had to be some random person that i'd never met then you wouldn't be the worst I suppose.
:lol: None taken!

Is it Feeding's 50th birthday today?
TBH. I don't see the day as starting until after I wake up - which leads me on to getting some kip so I'm ready for a late today - a truncated early tomorrow - and Celtic after about 4 hours on the coach. :D
 

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Don't make me find your post where you claimed me and Spoony were part of a anti Ronaldo hate campaign, hence why you defend your position so passionately



I can't attend United matches currently. But say against Newcastle, I chanted from start to finish, despite the frustration of the game itself. I didn't utter anything pro or anti Ronaldo once. That's fair weather or disruptive support is it?

Yes I let personal feelings affect my expressions. Everybody does. The people who have a problem with Ronaldo's conduct during the summer are, from my experience, largely those that feel the strongest about this club, their support and passion towards it. Fair weather they are not, and they're not trumping United's chances. I don't understand this bizarre view that United fans are obligated to chant Ronaldo songs somehow? They're chanting for other players instead, or taking the piss out of opponents. How is that disruptive?

You're a one man propaganda machine FS
One man bullshit machine more like.
 

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Ay I know Manxy, both were audible on TV as FS rightly points out

It's the other 89 minutes of Viva Ronaldo-less chanting that tells the story though, not the two rare occasions Ronaldo songs were actually sung
Aye true, and I've not heard it once in the pubs/on the metro, where it was rife last season.
 

Merman

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I would love it if somebody other than Ronaldo is our best player this season. Somebody who many not be in love with the club, but at least is proud enough to wear the red shirt. On a side note, when was the last time we struggled to keep our best player?
 

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I would love it if somebody other than Ronaldo is our best player this season. Somebody who many not be in love with the club, but at least is proud enough to wear the red shirt. On a side note, when was the last time we struggled to keep our best player?
Wayne Rooney will be our best player. Hopefully Ronaldo will build up sufficient enthusiasm, form and effectiveness to help land more silverware before he leaves at the end of the season.

I cannot remember another time when we struggled to keep one of our top players - although we've had contract disputes and difficult negotiations - but certainly not someone who blatantly wanted to play for another team.

On another side note. What money on Fergie thinking - I need Ronaldo to help us win the ECL one more time, then he can go and so will I - ?
 

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Wayne Rooney will be our best player. Hopefully Ronaldo will build up sufficient enthusiasm, form and effectiveness to help land more silverware before he leaves at the end of the season.

I cannot remember another time when we struggled to keep one of our top players - although we've had contract disputes and difficult negotiations - but certainly not someone who blatantly wanted to play for another team.

On another side note. What money on Fergie thinking - I need Ronaldo to help us win the ECL one more time, then he can go and so will I - ?
not really mate.

I reckon Ferg is perfectly capable of producing another CL winning side with or without Ron. So many other issues. Rooney playing as well as Ron did last season. The Berb factor. The defence have had another year together. The middle order of players will have improved as well as some of the younger ones coming thru......and then of course, our good/bad luck - rival's good/bad luck etc etc

It sure doesn't hang upon Ron as much as some would have you believe. Maybe Ron will give Rooney the support he got last season in a re-jigged attack.
 

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not really mate.

I reckon Ferg is perfectly capable of producing another CL winning side with or without Ron. So many other issues. Rooney playing as well as Ron did last season. The Berb factor. The defence have had another year together. The middle order of players will have improved as well as some of the younger ones coming thru......and then of course, our good/bad luck - rival's good/bad luck etc etc

It sure doesn't hang upon Ron as much as some would have you believe. Maybe Ron will give Rooney the support he got last season in a re-jigged attack.
Why then was Fergie so intent on hanging on to Ron when all this blew up in the summer? I cannot remember any other time when one of our top players said he preferred another club to us. On principle, subject to the right fee being paid and proper replacements lined up, we should have let him go there and then. The problem was Ronnie was the single biggest factor in us winning the EPL for the last two seasons and the ECL last time. Fergie knew this only too well and needed Ronnie to perform miracles again so that we could retain the ECL one more time. Ronnie could then bugger off and Fergie could consider retirement - going out at the top. I'm sure that's not too far from the truth. Fergie could not be certain last summer that Rooney would recapture his old form and then some.
 

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Aye true, and I've not heard it once in the pubs/on the metro, where it was rife last season.
It was sung in the BB but alot of people including me weren´t joining in. I joined in at OT though as I think that since he is still here I will support him when on the field. I´ll probably never sing his name in the pub again though. Was pretty pissed at him aswell after the match when he couldn´t even bother to clap his hands.
 

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I think it runs deeper than that. Where I sit there is definately an anti-ronaldo vibe. The people round me were reluctant to join in.

It was certainly no where near the volume of the rooney song.
That's true and I don't think it'll be a 'theme' song for this season. But still the main reason there was lot of Viva Ronaldo last season was because at times he almost single handedly won us the league.

Anyway it's my first game of the season tomorrow so I'll be able to judge for myself.