Will we ever learn?!

[amolbhatia50k]

You've made a thread to gloat about your achievement in rating Scott McTominay. Well done. You should be proud.

Also, I'm glad the kid is doing well but let's not pretend he hasn't got a long way to go. Going by some of posts (replacement of Matic, Keane-esque peformance) you'd think a starting spot in our midfield is his for years.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

You certainly don’t see it as much from the match going fans. Quite frankly keyboard warriors who have never even been to OT want and seemingly expect to Utd to win by 3 or 4 each week, otherwise it’s not good enough.

There also seems to be a lot of British bashing from non British fans - who seemingly can’t comprehend the importance of the academy, and of bringing youngsters through - even though it’s the foundations on which the club is built on.

We don’t need the academy players to be world class, those world class players are the ones Utd can buy in. These days you need 24 professionals, and if you can get 8-12 of those as academy players at any one time in the squad you can concentrate your funds on buying the exceptional players. Players like Cantona or RVP who were the difference in winning the league. Also means we don’t have to spend millions on the likes of Darmian, Fred or Rojo. Players who could be easily replaced by a youngster and we wouldn’t even notice!

Spot on

 

[noodlehair]

I think McTominay is a tricky one. WHen a young player comes into the team I don't think anyone is realistically looking for them to immediately be at the same standard as you would expect from a first team regular, but what you look for is evidence of what their strengths are or what they may be able to bring to the table as they develop.

The problem I had with McTominay as I just couldn't see anything. He was not awful, but it was difficult to see what he excelled at. He would play simple passes, generally be decent positionally, but didn't really show anything other than that, and really these are things that any professional player would be expected to do. I'm sure I made comments on here saying that he needed to show more of what he's good at if he was ever going to make it.

The last month or so that's what he's done so I think in his case the suddent change in opinion is understandable. Something mentally has obviously changed and he's now forcing himself into games rather than letting them pass him by, and because of that you can see what he brings in terms of strengths. SO much of the game is about mentality as well as ability.

It was similar with Fletcher who showed pretty much nothing for nearly the entire first season he was playing for us, and only seemed to grow in confidence towards the end of that season. Unfortunately being a fan is about emotion, and emotion and reasoning don't go well together, so if a player doesn't play well you are unlikely to get reasonable responses about how he needs time to learn this or grow into that. Fans want to see the team play well and win.

THe way certain players are targetted I agree is weird and I don't get it. You can have two players produce the exact same performance and one will be slated while the other will just be ignored or even defended. It's always been like that on here. Lukaku last season would have needed to score a hat trick every week to keep certain people happy. Berbatov got most of the blame on here when we lost to Bayern in the CL quarter final...he came on in about the 93rd minute. Rashford isn't allowed to have poor games or poor runs of form or be inconsistent despite barely being an adult...while Pogba can be as inconsistent as he wants and the same angry people will still tell you he's our best player. I get that people have favourite players or maybe players they like less, but I think here tyou're just getting into being deliberately dishonest, which is a weird thing to do when the outcome is criticisng or slagging off your own players

 

[andersj]

You've made a thread to gloat about your achievement in rating Scott McTominay. Well done. You should be proud.

Also, I'm glad the kid is doing well but let's not pretend he hasn't got a long way to go. Going by some of posts (replacement of Matic, Keane-esque peformance) you'd think a starting spot in our midfield is his for years.

If my aim was to gloat I would added a few of my posts about him. I will do that later. It will overwhelm everyone, I promise.

No, this was rather to gloat about my achivement of not being born f*****g stupid and knowing when to execute manners and common decency. Despite just being on the internet (what a lame excuse that is!).

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

You certainly don’t see it as much from the match going fans. Quite frankly keyboard warriors who have never even been to OT want and seemingly expect to Utd to win by 3 or 4 each week, otherwise it’s not good enough.

There also seems to be a lot of British bashing from non British fans - who seemingly can’t comprehend the importance of the academy, and of bringing youngsters through - even though it’s the foundations on which the club is built on.

We don’t need the academy players to be world class, those world class players are the ones Utd can buy in. These days you need 24 professionals, and if you can get 8-12 of those as academy players at any one time in the squad you can concentrate your funds on buying the exceptional players. Players like Cantona or RVP who were the difference in winning the league. Also means we don’t have to spend millions on the likes of Darmian, Fred or Rojo. Players who could be easily replaced by a youngster and we wouldn’t even notice!

I understand all of this, but still it remains to be seen if anyone not named Alex Ferguson can do this successfully in modern football.

I think some (myself included) might find it a naive strategy to employ in search of the biggest trophies today. And yes I’d be totally fine with being incorrect.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

If my aim was to gloat I would added a few of my posts about him. I will do that later. It will overwhelm everyone, I promise.

No, this was rather to gloat about my achivement of not being born f*****g stupid and knowing when to execute manners and common decency.

Yeah nobody will be overwhelmed with your irrelevant and imaginary achievement. They may point and laugh at you though so please do so.

Not so sure about second para either. Delusion is a dangerous thing. we

 

[noodlehair]

You certainly don’t see it as much from the match going fans. Quite frankly keyboard warriors who have never even been to OT want and seemingly expect to Utd to win by 3 or 4 each week, otherwise it’s not good enough.

There also seems to be a lot of British bashing from non British fans - who seemingly can’t comprehend the importance of the academy, and of bringing youngsters through - even though it’s the foundations on which the club is built on.

We don’t need the academy players to be world class, those world class players are the ones Utd can buy in. These days you need 24 professionals, and if you can get 8-12 of those as academy players at any one time in the squad you can concentrate your funds on buying the exceptional players. Players like Cantona or RVP who were the difference in winning the league. Also means we don’t have to spend millions on the likes of Darmian, Fred or Rojo. Players who could be easily replaced by a youngster and we wouldn’t even notice!

Not sure about the first bit. Old Trafford can be brutal when fans there take a disliking to a player. At one point there was pretty much no part of the stadium you could sit in without being next to someone who'd spend the whole game hurling abuse at Nani...and this was when we were good. There's definitely less impatience towards academy players though. I think generally match going fans are less likely to give a player stick if they can see the player is working hard, but they're nowhere near immune to daft player targetting.

 

[andersj]

I understand all of this, but still it remains to be seen if anyone not named Alex Ferguson can do this successfully in modern football.

I think some (myself included) might find it a naive strategy to employ in search of the biggest trophies today. And yes I’d be totally fine with being incorrect.

Klopp is doing right now. Do you actually think Milner, Henderson, Lovren, Matip or Winjaldum is huge talents? TAA is a great talent, but he has weaknesses in his game. Robertson is a great player, but similar to what Ferguson managed to, Klopp gets the best from him.

 

[Kostov]

If anything we are guilty of tolerating average for far too long.

 

[JJ12]

The one exception to this I can think of was the debut of Giggs. I’d say that fans were arguably more excited about that than the signing of Cantona.

I am genuinely excited about youth players and watch a lot of youth games though.

Someone like Greenwood excites me.

 

[Beachryan]

I don't think this thread is entirely fair, and probably goes too far in the other direction - certainly for a player like McTominay.

It's possible to have watched him play for us - and he has played a fair bit - and find it challenging to see a player that gets into top 4 midfields in England, much less Europe. That's how I feel btw. And if we're really keen on United being up there in those echelons, central midfield is pretty crucial.

At the same time, he's obviously decent, presumably quite loyal to the club and hence a very useful squad player. Nothing wrong with that.

But it doesn't mean he's the second coming of Robson, or the second coming of Djemba-Djemba. He's just okay. I've still seen nothing to convince me that he's going to become a first XI player for us, but I've also seen nothing to suggest he needs binning off. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Only other thing I'd say is that we should be careful with the deification of certain United players because they seemed like solid people. Both Brown and Fletcher are constantly used as means to demean folks claiming United should look for 'better'. Both of those players weren't terrible, but Fletcher (unfortunately) only had about 9 months at the very top of his game, and Wes Brown never managed to overcome injuries long enough to be a mainstay in the starting XI. They're solid, British and extremely valuable to the squad but neither were consistently world beaters.

 

[NWRed]

If you think Lingard is a United player then you don't understand football.

One good game from McTominay and now hes suddenly good enough for us.

It all started with Ferguson btw. He started to choose players like Park, Fletcher and Wes Brown as first choice to combat the opposition. You never see Barca or Madrid combating the opposition, they play their best attacking sides. Whereas United are cowardly in their approach, cowardly tactics and choosing defensive minded players in attacking positions.

These players are some of the best players to play for United, Wes Browns performance vs Barcelona at Old Trafford in the 2008 CL semi was one of the greatest CB performances I can remember, Fletcher was one of the highest rated youngsters United have had, ahead of Giggs at the age of 16 according to Sir Alex, but was held back by injuries in his late teens. He was always a big game performer and fully deserved his place in the team. Park Ji-Sung starred in world cups for South Korea and was one of our most reliable players in a hugely successful era.

 

[AndyJ1985]

As a club and as a fan base we're at odds with what we want and how we behave.

On one hand we all want to win the league and the CL. We don't only want to win, we want to dominate.

On the other hand we tolerate players like Lingard, Young, Mata, Jones, Smalling, and want to promote half the academy in to the squad.

The ambition doesn't match the way we are run or the way we behave.

When I decide whether our players are good enough I compare them to players who have been part of teams that have won the most prestigious trophies. I ask myself if Real Madrid, Juventus, PSG, Barcelona, Bayern, Man City would replace any of their players with ours.

Would any of those clubs have McTominay or Lingard in the first team? Obviously not. Should I ignore this and pretend they are good enough just because they joined our academy when they were kids? No, I'm not going to ignore it.

I want to see this club competing with the best teams. Not as the plucky underdog who feels lucky to be there, but as favourites who can go toe to toe with the best teams. Until that day comes I'm not going to accept mediocrity, regardless of which academy the player came from.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

Klopp is doing right now. Do you actually think Milner, Henderson, Lovren, Matip or Winjaldum is huge talents? TAA is a great talent, but he has weaknesses in his game. Robertson is a great player, but similar to what Ferguson managed to, Klopp gets the best from him.

Klopp certainly has some similarities, but he also has a world class attack and a world class defense. And the point remains, will it end in success or every time he runs up against teams with more quality and depth will he come up short?

 

[Sandikan]

These players are some of the best players to play for United, Wes Browns performance vs Barcelona at Old Trafford in the 2008 CL semi was one of the greatest CB performances I can remember, Fletcher was one of the highest rated youngsters United have had, ahead of Giggs at the age of 16 according to Sir Alex, but was held back by injuries in his late teens. He was always a big game performer and fully deserved his place in the team. Park Ji-Sung starred in world cups for South Korea and was one of our most reliable players in a hugely successful era.

Fletcher was once rated higher than Giggs?!
Surely not.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

I've liked McTominay all along.

Same here.

 

[Morpheus 7]

Really think this thread is a build up of frustration, we want young academy players but want World Class ones that bring instant success. The painful truth is that we are in transition again, need to get the mix right. You can't have 11 Pogba's of pure ability and world class stature, or all Jesse's and Scott Mc Tominay's. You need a blend and a settled team. Scott showed up in that midfield against Barcelona, pure determination and desire. Pogba went fecking missing again in a huge game. We need a settled 11 and stronger squad but unfortunately it's going to take time again, require consistent performances. More than anything we need a better mentality and more workrate. Ole done a great job since coming in but he can't perform miracles. It's all about a good pre season and transfer window. He needs more time to inprint his ethic on the side. We chat about people getting the club ect, we need a core of players like Jesse, Marcus and Scott. We need to sort out who wants to be here and who wants out. The players that want to jump ship because of no Champions league, maybe that's a problem. There is something missing from that dressing room and Ole will need to find it, too many strange performances at Old Trafford this season.

 

[Red Dreams]

pretty much agree.
We were in pre-season when Ole came in.
In August we will have a decent team that plays football the way Ole wants to play.

 

[NWRed]

Fletcher was once rated higher than Giggs?!
Surely not.

I can't find the quote at the minute so I'm paraphrasing, but I'm sure Sir Alex said that as a 16 year old Fletcher was further along than Giggs was as a 16 year old.

Here's an article about how he was prevented by PL rules from playing him as a 15 year old

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...er-united-fixtures-fletcher-ferguson-12562276

 

[MetoTTT]

Everyone is a coach/manager and an expert on football on here.
Just because people watch football doesn't mean they understand the game.
That's why people pick out individuals as scapegoats.
Players can make mistakes and have bad games, but ultimately it's a team game.
Scotty is a quality player.
But I agree with the general viewpoint that whilst giving it his all, Young is not up to the quality we need anymore.
But if we could bottle his attitude we'd be a better side.

True but the real problem isn't that everybody on this forum think be kind of football manager and don't really understand the game.
The worrying think is our scouts, Woody, the Glazers and a lot of people who decide our furure doesn't seem to unterstand the game either.

 

[andersj]

I don't think this thread is entirely fair, and probably goes too far in the other direction - certainly for a player like McTominay.

It's possible to have watched him play for us - and he has played a fair bit - and find it challenging to see a player that gets into top 4 midfields in England, much less Europe. That's how I feel btw. And if we're really keen on United being up there in those echelons, central midfield is pretty crucial.

At the same time, he's obviously decent, presumably quite loyal to the club and hence a very useful squad player. Nothing wrong with that.

But it doesn't mean he's the second coming of Robson, or the second coming of Djemba-Djemba. He's just okay. I've still seen nothing to convince me that he's going to become a first XI player for us, but I've also seen nothing to suggest he needs binning off. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Only other thing I'd say is that we should be careful with the deification of certain United players because they seemed like solid people. Both Brown and Fletcher are constantly used as means to demean folks claiming United should look for 'better'. Both of those players weren't terrible, but Fletcher (unfortunately) only had about 9 months at the very top of his game, and Wes Brown never managed to overcome injuries long enough to be a mainstay in the starting XI. They're solid, British and extremely valuable to the squad but neither were consistently world beaters.

By the other direction, you mean too far in asking for common decency and being a bit nuanced? Because I have never said anything about McT being the next Robson in this thread.

I still expect him to have several more poor and average games. Even Pogba do. And I’m not certain at all that he will be here in five years. But that is not my point at all.

 

[FutbolFan]

This is consistent for pretty much most top clubs. A new player enters (Likely academy) and fans get split into he is young and needs to be backed vs he is not good enough for the club.

I think there needs to be criticism when Scotty doesbt do well and praise when he does. Beyond that gettting carried away either way is pointless.

Personally I dont understand the point of having such a thread.

 

[andersj]

This is consistent for pretty much most top clubs. A new player enters (Likely academy) and fans get split into he is young and needs to be backed vs he is not good enough for the club.

I think there needs to be criticism when Scotty doesbt do well and praise when he does. Beyond that gettting carried away either way is pointless.

Personally I dont understand the point of having such a thread.

I have never said that players should not be criticised. In fact I have repeatedly said that criticism is fine but that the manner in which one does it matters. Why do a couple of you struggle to understand that?

 

[SouthPredators4]

If you think Lingard is a United player then you don't understand football.

One good game from McTominay and now hes suddenly good enough for us.

It all started with Ferguson btw. He started to choose players like Park, Fletcher and Wes Brown as first choice to combat the opposition. You never see Barca or Madrid combating the opposition, they play their best attacking sides. Whereas United are cowardly in their approach, cowardly tactics and choosing defensive minded players in attacking positions.

Pretty harsh but i can see where you are coming from. The said players made their name for the club as defensive players while conveniently ignoring their deficiencies in their offensive qualities. The modern game requires players to have the abilities to retain the ball, pass well in tight spaces and be press resistant. Even reowned defensive midfielders like Busquets, Fernandinho, Kante or Makelele are often two way players while adopting defensive assignments. This allow their clubs to play football on the ground and attractive styles. However, to do this, it would be a suitable manager with a huge transfer budget which i doubt we have.

 

[Andersonson]

Fans in here play to much fifa/FM and judge their opinions on how good they are based on stats in-game. Its obvious

 

[FutbolFan]

I have never said that players should not be criticised. In fact I have repeatedly said that criticism is fine but that the manner in which one does it matters. Why do a couple of you struggle to understand that?

The whole point of being fans is being over the top with emotions. Bring balanced as in not getting carried away with wins/losses/poor performances/great performances doesnt happen untill perhaps you have aged a bit.

The manner of this post - providing definition of the word stupid, etc. - is also another example that most fans are irrational and not balanced. Thats the part of fun.

TLDR - Do not tell your fellow fans how to feel or react.

 

[desertred87]

Its just that most people (not just football fans) lack the humility to look past their opinions. Everyone’s the smartest guy in the room, the one person possessing complete and fool proof understanding of the state of affairs being discussed.

These fan forums and social media are just platforms where Aristotles like us come together to prove our superior intellect.

I am the same to be fair. For example, i am convinced Rashford is massively overrated. I simply don’t see the talent, I get frustrated watching him play. Actually I would even acknowledge that I actively dislike him. No idea why. When he plays well I would perhaps begrudgingly give credit. When he’s bad i am on reddit slating him like there’s no tomorrow.

So I don’t think it’s stupidity. Its a failure to see past the bias that forms our opinions.

Just my two cents. Sorry for lengthy post.

 

[TRUERED89]

Half of you only jumped on the McT bandwagon after the Barca game. I've been singing his praises from day 1, and stressing how he should be in the MF over Matic every game!! He was excellent against PSG, Palace & Southampton then gets dropped for Matic in the Arsenal game! Made no sense at the time and still doesn't!