We best sack amorim now then as he doesn't and won't play with a back 4 and we k ow this when we hired him
Wing-back prospects
- Thread starter The White Pele
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Should have waited for a couple of them
Talk in local press here is that we are to offer Ait Nouri a new contract to stay as he’s integral to our plans, good news for us, he’s a very good LWB
I expect the wide center back + CM to compensate for any defensive failings. Most wing backs aren't strong defensively and Amorim's system in particular uses one winger in disguise as a wing back (ala Quenda) who has even less of a defensive responsibility than a more traditional WB like Dumfries.
You can compensate for defensive issues even in a 4-2-3-1 for a player like Trent and it's so much easier in a 5 ATB system to do that.
Anything could happen and he could change his system entirely but my base case is to prepare for guys like Dibling or Amad in that position rather than a Dumfries. This is also why I'm so surprised that we let Antony go without a proper shot at RWB. I still think he could do a job there.
Wouldn't really mind a specialist player or two especially at wing back because they're not the most expensive players in the world to get. Sure you lose 40-50m but that's the price of backing a manager properly. And if we have a decent succession plan with guys that play 5 ATB (becoming more and more envogue) then even less of a concern.
Even in the worst case, where we have terrible succession planning and spend big money on a RWB (say, Pedro Porro for 50M), a 4 ATB system can support one actual attacking fullback (ala Trippier) and one defensive fullback.
I think the plan is to move Amad to wing back and have Dorgu, Dalot and Maz as the left wingback/backup.
Kinda says it all when ourselves and Brentford go hunting for a wing back, go to serie a and we pay more for the lesser one…
I know they’ve a history of great signings but it shows how far behind even a club like Brentford we are when it comes to finding these value for money and lesser known signings.
I mean 1) it's very, very early days 2) Brentford are just a much better established team than we are right now and it's easier to slot in and look effective right away there 3) Kayode is a right footed rightback, we were clearly after a left footed player.
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Well we don’t really know that, but I do know Kayode is a good pick up on loan.
I’d expect Brentford to sign him permanently.
It’s early days for both yes. Similar age, experience etc. but it’s ok to admit to things based on the eye test at this point even with such a small sample size and that’s that Kayode looks more well rounded.
I dont think Brentford being a better team necessarily changes how they look individually when they receive the ball either.
And the only teams who have more of the ball in the middle 3rd are Liverpool/City/Chelsea/Arsenal/Spurs, with the difference between us and Arsenal/Spurs being almost zero.
United are 18th in the league from chances created from take ons. Garnacho completes 1.5 dribbles per game (below average) and his success rate is 37% which is horrendous. He's almost among the worst wingers in the league for how often he's dispossessed or miscontrols the ball. Through balls /passes into final third/progressive passes all bottom 10%, it's not even just below average it's genuinely horrendous. Passes into penalty area/crosses into penalty area bottom 20%.
Statistically Garnacho is playing to around the same level this season as Daniel James played for us, he's that bad.
I won't even begin with the statistical performances of Hojlund as I assume every get's how horrendous he's been.
If people seriously think that these players will suddenly transform as soon as we a Frenkie De Jong type player then they're delusional. The individual numbers of our attacking players (bar Amad) is so awful it genuinely suggests both are closer to championship level than premier league title contenders.
Both of them are awful when it comes to just competing for any 50/50s, let's look at Garnacho vs Cunha (I could highlight more)
Possesion won: Garnacho 108 Cunha 123
Tackles: Garnacho 29 Cunha 35
Interceptions: Garnacho 13 Cunha 17
Ground duel win Garnacho 41% Cunha 49%
Aeriel Duel win % Garnacho 11% Cunha 27%
Add Cunha/Cherki and any warm blooded male capable of playing as a #9 and the team won't have the ball in the defensive third all the time since we'd have players who won't lose possession over and over again.
Yes, because by the time we get the ball into midfield teams have dropped back into their block shape, because we spend so much time with the ball in the defensive third. It's why our attacking 3rd touches drop off a cliff. The teams are defending the space.
Do you know why we don't score many goals from take ons? Because you don't score lots of goals from take ons against set defences. You score them after moving the ball quickly and having the defensive team running back towards goal.
Rashford went from having anywhere between 1.6 and 2.5 successful takeons p90 at United every season he was here, with a success rate of around 40-50% apart from this year where he ended up managing 0.8 p90 at a success rate of 23%. You could say that's all on Rashford and his natural decline... except you know what happened as soon as he moved to Villa? Back up to 1.8 successful takeons p90 at 40% success rate.
We lose the ball in the attacking third over and over because by the time we get there teams have gotten back into their shape. Even the lateral side to side stuff City/PSG/Barcelona do to break set defences relies on defences never being able to get set in the first place, it's why they place so much value on a high press and quick transitions.
It's the way we play. It has been all season and before that. You drop Cunha or Gyokeres into this team and things will improve a bit, they're better players. But it won't change how we play. The only way we're changing how we play is by signing a midfielder who can take the ball under pressure and break a press quickly.
Except that Rashford was averaging 2+ dribbles per game for United in the Europa league this season and his premier league numbers were lower as he was used as a striker repeatedly.
If we don't create chances from take ones because we lack this type of midfielder then why did we create far more last season? Who was the midfielder breaking the lines for us then?
The best teams constantly come up against sides who don't press and have a set defence yet still manage to create far more than we do. I could load up a video of every goal/assist by Yamal/Vinicius/Doue this season and you'll see them constantly going past multiple defenders in set defences. Garnacho along with every other forward bar Amad is just incapable of doing it and opposition teams have sussed this out.
It's just a fantasy to think you drop Scholes into this team and suddenly Garnacho and Hojlund are now making 2+ dribbles per game.
Sorry but, Mainoo and ugarte are not "excellent central midfielders"
We have one good midfielder in fernandes, and a bunch of other guys who are not up to standard for one reason or another. I personally don't see the point of signing a wingback, We have enough options that we can manage In those positions for another season or at least till January.
What we need are scorers. Our single biggest issue is we don't score enough goals from the chances we make and our second biggest issue is we don't make enough chances because our midfielders other than bruno are mostly liabilities offensively and in possession.
So what needs to happen is firstly sign a guaranteed scoring number 9.
Secondly get cunha in to fill the other 10 role and add more goals/creativity to the side.
And Lastly get at least one quality pivot midfielder who can PROGRESS the ball and isnt a defensive liability. This team has woefully failed to buy any good midfielders for years now.
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Rashford played 1 game in the Premier League for us as a striker this season. So that's not it. I'd highlight that Garnacho also has almost double the number of successful take ons in Europe too, it's a mixture of factors that make the PL different from the EL. We played psychotic ping pong football last season under Ten Hag, that lends itself well to creating transitions but it also leaves you incredibly exposed to them. Hence why he got sacked and we picked up a manager who is more focused on trying to control games. But you can't do that without a midfield who can play with the ball. Hojlund isn't making 2 dribbles per game, but given Garnacho has 1.9 and 1.7 successful take ons p90 in the previous 2 seasons before this one I think it's not an unsafe bet that in an actual functional team there's room for a 5-15% improvement there.
Barcelona and PSG are absolutely stacked with the types of players we're talking about here, and Real are still incredibly dependent on Modric for it and are far more transition based themselves. I even addressed this point in my reply. It's not just front to back play that these types of players are essential, it's the quick lateral movement of the ball which prevent a defence ever actually being 'set'.
He'd be absolutely perfect for Amorim's system. I don't think we're lucky enough for him to choose us, though.
Of course he'll go to Liverpool.
The majority of rashford's United games this season were played under Ten Hag. So why are you citing his lower dribbling % to the way we play?
Now you're shifting the goalposts by making up a definition of what a set defence is.
Because Ten Hag clearly made an effort to reduce the number of shots we conceded this season but was unable to make it work. Amorim has faced the same problem, hence why I said "last season". You can't control games without having quality midfielders on the ball.
And I have been completely consistent on what I consider a set defence, I even outlined what I meant before you raised the issue a couple of posts ago.
Absolutely none of this is going anywhere, I'm sorry this will be our last exchange.
I really think he'll be one of those players that can "immediately" transform this team. At least with this Amorim's formation.
If we don't get a bona fide striker but the likes of Delap, we need to get Frimpong as another attacking outlet.
Did you watch us play against Athletic in first half today? Did you watch how sloppy we were with our passings from the back especially by Maguire, Casemiro and Ugarte?
Ugarte made 19 successful passes in the first half, hard to see how you can get away with that for a team trying to control the game.Did you watch us play against Athletic in first half today? Did you watch how sloppy we were with our passings from the back especially by Maguire, Casemiro and Ugarte?
Likely LFC bound after TAA said hes leaving
Actually you specifically said this year. "With a success rate of around 40-50% apart from this year where he ended up managing 0.8 p90 at a success rate of 23%."
You tried to make the claim that the reason for this drop off is because of how United play under Amorim since his numbers went back up when he moved to Villa. None of this tracks logically because the majority of his games were played under ETH.
It also explains why last season United were mid table when it came to chances created from take ons. Because with Rashford/Antony etc in the squad we had a number of players who while not elite are above average in this category and now they're gone without any replacement United have predictably seen a massive drop off here. The only way to replace it is to buy forwards who possess this skillset, not a holding midfielder.
Scary to think they could end up with Frimpong and Kerkez. This is the level we should be looking at.
There's a young fella at Betis who looks like he might be handy out wide.
I suggest you go back and re-read what I actually wrote. I have absolutely no interest in continuing to engage with you but this is simply a fundamental misunderstanding of the argument presented to you.
I have read your posts and fully understand the argument you're trying to make but I'm sorry to say it doesn't make much sense.
You cited how many touches we have in the defensive 3rd this season "We look like a relegation team when the ball gets to the forwards because we simply don't get the ball out of the back very often and when we do it's usually very slow". Last season under ETH we were very high in defensive touches at 6th in the league but were playing in your words "psychotic ping pong football" which I think we can all agree was not slow to play forward, in fact it was so quick it left us very vulnerable to transitions.
You followed it up with "Rashford went from having anywhere between 1.6 and 2.5 successful takeons p90 at United every season he was here, with a success rate of around 40-50% apart from this year where he ended up managing 0.8 p90 at a success rate of 23%. You could say that's all on Rashford and his natural decline... except you know what happened as soon as he moved to Villa? Back up to 1.8 successful takeons p90 at 40% success rate."
Except that most of these games were under ETH so the drop off from Rashford and the subsequent return to his normal % is easily attributed to a drop/return to form from a player who was clearly unhappy and not due to a style of play, since the style hadn't changed.
We have seen how both Rashford and Garnacho can/have performed in sides that play/attempt to play in quick transitions and with more possession. Neither are good enough.
It's fairly redundant to claim that moving the ball laterally now means the defence is "never really set" since that would mean anytime a team is moving the ball in this way it apparently wouldn't qualify even if the opposition has 11 men behind the ball.
For the record major analytical sites have defined set defence based on common characteristics from the team with the ball E.G speed of the attack up the pitch, because if a team is moving the ball up the field quickly it either means that they’re counter-attacking or the defensive team are being carved open, and in neither of those instances will that defence be ‘set’. The actual number used to measure this around 4 metres per second. Nothing in what you've described is consistent with the commonly used definition's of set defence.
For full clarification I do believe that signing a player in the mould that you're describing would be an asset however this entire conversation has been about what United need the most. Like most fans on this forum I can highlight a number of areas that need improving and have made a detailed post in other threads on them.
Since we have limited funds but need to improve in quite a lot of areas we simply have to prioritise and spending large amounts of money on a holding midfielder when our forward line is producing relegation numbers would be a huge mistake.
Just taking one of them would be a small victory
You evidently don't understand. We went from conceding 17.4 shots a game under Ten Hag to 11.4 shots per game this season under Ten Hag. He tried to get a less Kamakazi system to work and failed, so he was sacked.
Like I said, I have no desire to continue this discussion with you because I think you are simply inventing things to argue against rather than read what was actually written. But I hope this clarification helps.
If it's true as you say that the reason we don't create chances via take ons is because the system we play doesn't enable it since we lack a holding midfielder then by your logic the dribbling numbers achieved by Rashford/Garnacho were because ETH was playing psycotic ping pong football, since the less Kamikaze system is the reason you give for a significant drop off for both players except for Rashford when he went to Villa.
The problem with this logic is Rashford has achieved those numbers under Mourinho/Ole/ETH and England. His performances at Villa would indicate a return to his normal levels rather than because of a specific system or do you think Villa are playing the kamikaze football which allowed Rashford to apparently achieve this?
I didn't "invent" anything, in fact I gave you a highly specific definition for measuring terms like "set defence" that are used by professional analysts whereas you're seemingly using the term in an entirely personal and thus unquantifiable way.
My brother in Christ, you are clearly doing this in bad faith. You know that the entire argument is that we are currently terrible at playing forward at pace, not that Ten Hag's football was some secret sauce that allowed players to get high dribbling numbers. Under Solskjaer and and Mourinho we generally generated lots of transitions as well. Villa also generate lots of transitions. There's no way you didn't understand this argument, which means you deliberately twisted it to find something to argue about.
I'm afraid you're going on to the ignore list now. I'm not interested in playing whack-a-mole with bad faith nonsense. I'm happy to let everyone else read my argument and judge it themselves.
That wasn't what that comment was in reference to.
This discussion was about who United should prioritise as a signing since I'm yet to see any fan argue against signing at least 1 wide forward and as I have said I think a player with the skillset you're describing would be an asset. Many posters including myself think that a wide forward should be the priority and I cited the relegation level of creativity in the team which you argue would be fixed by signing a holding midfielder since the reason we don't create these chances according to you is not having this player.
The reasoning you've given has been fairly exposed here regardless of how much mental gymnastics and goalpost shifting you try but in reality it's very simple, we've lost the dribbling/creativity of Rashford/Sancho/Greenwood/Antony with zero replacements being signed so it's very predictable that we would see this drop off. You simply do not replace the creative output of these 4 players by signing a holding midfielder, you replace it by signing players who can at a minimum replicate the output they're capable of.
Dilane Bakwa, a right wingback from Strasbourg may be worth having a look at. 6 goals and 8 assists in the league so far, and only 22 years. If we can get him on a cheap, then it might be worth a punt.
We never seem strongly linked to this guy
He's a good alternative to Frimpong. Also would cost similarly.
I fear the Scouse sign him to replace Trent this summer
We can't let Liverpool have a free route to him. He is exactly the type of player we need for that RWB role. Let him and Dalot fight it out for that slot. Mazraoui can cover every position he is so versatile.
Too late.. He'll never chose us over them, especially when they are in advanced talks already.
Yeah this one is a lost cause sadly