Winston Churchill

blue blue

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TheNewEra said:
I understand the point of not idolising historic figures, but the problem is you can't wash away all of human history based on preferences or political correctness.

I agree fully in equality, that is with the gender pay gap, no preference due to ethnicity, theology, gender, nationality, all should be equal.

However every historical figure at one point would have been deemed 'a racist' because it was purely how things were the time.

It was mostly to do with colonialism.

Pre industrial revolution (where machines) could do labour, sadly there was slavery it is a dark period in history, and people like Churchill also helped the country in the war so on the national level he is a hero, but on a human level, based on 21st century values he isn't.

One day we may deem those who pay people minimum wages 'exploitative' such as Jeff Bezos, and any statues he has may also be torn down, our view on history changes with time, but you can't take that away.

The larger issue currently is of course BLM and also police brutality which clearly needs to stop, but ripping down statues purely because of the movement I'm not entirely sure of.

The purpose of the statues are to do with things like what they contributed, such as Churchill with WW2, the statue isn't a monument to his racist views.
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The statue of Michael Jackson at Craven Cottage wasn't about his pedophilia but they still took it down.
 

sun_tzu

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blue blue said:
The statue of Michael Jackson at Craven Cottage wasn't about his pedophilia but they still took it down.
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In July 2013, Shahid Khan completed the purchase from Al-Fayed, of Fulham FC, for a fee believed to be between £150m and £200m.[6] In September 2013 it was decided that the statue would be removed and returned to Al-Fayed; the statue was not part of the ground's redevelopment plans.[7] On 3 May 2014 Fulham were relegated from the Premier League after 13 seasons in the league, the top tier of English Football. Mohamed Al-Fayed blamed the removal of the statue for causing the club's relegation.[8] The statue was moved to the National Football Museum in Manchester in May 2014
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Since removed from the national football museum (last year) I believe - though again not apparently because of the allegations
A spokesperson for the museum said: "Plans have been underway for a number of months to remove the Michael Jackson statue from display as part of our ongoing plans to better represent the stories we want to tell about football.
"As a result of this, the statue has now been removed."
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sun_tzu

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blue blue said:
What can I say?
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My point is that if its too controversial to admit they are taking a statue of Michael Jackson down because of the allegations then realistically I cant imagine there is a story about removing statues of churchill that wont be signifigantly more controversial and probably lead to pretty much riots around the statue
 

Wilt

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Just wondering what our ancestors who fought so bravely in WW2 would make of this.
 

Fingeredmouse

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Wilt said:
Just wondering what our ancestors who fought so bravely in WW2 would make of this.
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Given they voted him out of power in a landslide defeat immediately after the war perhaps they might not see it as negatively as you may think.
 

b82REZ

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Wilt said:
Just wondering what our ancestors who fought so bravely in WW2 would make of this.
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Indifferent.

Churchill was brought into power because of his hard stance against the Nazis. A lot of his beliefs were well known and not well supported before the war.

He was the leader the country needed during the war but not one to lead a nation during a time of peace.
 

Wilt

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b82REZ said:
Indifferent.

Churchill was brought into power because of his hard stance against the Nazis. A lot of his beliefs were well known and not well supported before the war.

He was the leader the country needed during the war but not one to lead a nation during a time of peace.
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I do agree, he was the right man at the right time. Personally I thought him as like a fish out of water during peacetime.
 

SteveJ

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Who 'better' for the Mail to ask for his views on BLM than Bernie 'I admire Hitler. He got things done' Ecclestone? :rolleyes:
 

oates

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SteveJ said:
Who 'better' for the Mail to ask for his views on BLM than Bernie 'I admire Hitler. He got things done' Ecclestone? :rolleyes:
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Wasn't his mate and business partner caught dressing up in SS uniform(s)?
 

SteveJ

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Wikipedia said:
In February 2018, Daily Mail reported that Mosley had published a leaflet in the early 1960s linking black immigration to the spread of diseases
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Wilt

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jeff_goldblum said:
Did they? Wanna hazard a guess at which party received the most votes in the 1951 election?

Hint: it wasn't the one Churchill was the leader of.
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Don’t think anyone gives a stuff who got the most votes in 1951 ...It’s the amount of seats that wins an election.

Hint: it was the one Churchill was the leader of.
 
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jeff_goldblum

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Wilt said:
Don’t think anyone gives a stuff who got the most votes in 1951 ...It’s the amount of seats that wins an election.

Hint: it was the one Churchill was the leader of.
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If you're using the 1951 election as evidence of Churchill's post-war popularity, the fact that a larger number of people voted for his direct rival in that election is very relevant. It directly refutes the argument you were trying to make by referencing it.

Unless your argument was that the number of seats a party leader won in a FPTP election is a better measure of their popularity than the actual number of people who voted for them. But that would be a ridiculous argument, because by that metric Churchill was less popular in 1945 than Corbyn was in 2019.
 

Wilt

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jeff_goldblum said:
If you're using the 1951 election as evidence of Churchill's post-war popularity, the fact that a larger number of people voted for his direct rival in that election is very relevant. It directly refutes the argument you were trying to make by referencing it.

Unless your argument was that the number of seats a party leader won in a FPTP election is a better measure of their popularity than the actual number of people who voted for them. But that would be a ridiculous argument, because by that metric Churchill was less popular in 1945 than Corbyn was in 2019.
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Where did I say Churchill got the most votes?

I said “they voted him back in” ...history tells us that Churchill won the 1951 election, nobody cares who got what.
 

Don't Kill Bill

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Fingeredmouse said:
Given they voted him out of power in a landslide defeat immediately after the war perhaps they might not see it as negatively as you may think.
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He was the head of the conservative party, which was blamed for appeasement and the lack of war preparations.
 

Stookie

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Churchill was against the creation of the NHS as well which was a big factor in him not getting re-elected after the war. The people wanted it and even though he was a Great War leader the need for the NHS was powerful.
 

JPRouve

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Don't Kill Bill said:
He was the most popular PM ever by 1945, his approval ratings if I recall correctly are the highest recorded.
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If I'm not mistaken it's a war time phenomenon. I remember it being mentioned for US presidents which is why Bush father and son are for example quite high when it comes to approval ratings, in particular in terms of highest approvals.
 

entropy

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Where's my arc, Paulie?
Not sure why my earlier post was deleted. I thought it was informative since the discussion was around colonization and countries subjected to it.
Oh well.
 
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