With Sancho & Camavinga in, do we soon surpass Liverpool & City's squad?

Dion

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Insult to Rooney are you mad? How many times have you watched Camavinga play in all seriousness? And Rooney hadn't scored for England yet at exactly the same age, Camavinga could've potentially made the squad at some point this summer if it wasn't for coronavirus so that argument is null.
Of course it's an insult to Rooney. He was a fully fledged international starter and goalscorer at 17 and Camavinga is nowhere near that level. Unlike you I actually have watched Camavinga 10+ times this season, he runs around a lot and he has quick feet but he's still positionally extremely suspect and gets dragged around a lot chasing the ball and makes rash challenges and when he does get it he dwells on it and has a tendency to play hollywood balls to nowhere when given time and space. He's not getting in the French squad for a reason, because a team like France can't rely on a 17 year old in the center of the park. It's why he is so much better when Rennes play away, because in games where Rennes are given time and space his lack of maturity shows.

The same thing happened with Renato Sanches at Bayern. Central midfield is a role that gets exponentially harder as the level you're playing at increased. it's part of the reason when he hasn't been a bit-part player in the EL he's not actually done all that well. Playing the anchoring role is an added layer of difficulty again.

Right now it's not just an insult to teenage Rooney, it's an insult to fecking Fred, who is a much better player right now than Camavinga and will be for a good couple of years yet.
 

Dion

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It would have been difficult since he didn't had the nationality until recently.
Didn't stop him being called up to the U21 team before Christmas.

I’m not sure you can hold it against Camavinga that he hasn’t broken into the squad for the reigning World Cup champion side yet vs Rooney making England’s lesser squad at the same age.
This would be more true if he weren't only getting an u-21 call up because Guendouzi was promoted to the main squad ahead of him.
 

JPRouve

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Didn't stop him being called up to the U21 team before Christmas.
It was the first time that he was elligible, which happened on Nov 4th. And you sound strangely aggressive on that subject, that's a bit puzzling.
 

Dion

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It was the first time that he was elligible and you sound strangely aggressive on that subject, that's a bit puzzling.
And he wasn't called up because Guendouzi was instead. I think you're reading too much into me disagreeing with your premise if you consider that aggressive.

The only subject that is genuinely worth contempt here is that Camavinga is even remotely in the same league as teenage Rooney. He's not, teenage Rooney was a freak.
 

JPRouve

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And he wasn't called up because Guendouzi was instead. I think you're reading too much into me disagreeing with your premise if you consider that aggressive.

The only subject that is genuinely worth contempt here is that Camavinga is even remotely in the same league as teenage Rooney. He's not, teenage Rooney was a freak.
No read your post in the last pages, for some reason you took offense with the mention of Rooney. I don't agree or disagree with you, I don't have an opinion on the subject but I will say two things. Deschamps doesn't select youth players that haven't been at Clairefontaine and that he doesn't know personally, so Camavinga was never going to be the one replacing Matuidi, it was always going to be the one that trained with the team before. He may have been called in March depending on what Deschamps thought about his character and fit with the group but that's only a guess.
 

Dion

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No read your post in the last pages, for some reason you took offense with the mention of Rooney. I don't agree or disagree with you, I don't have an opinion on the subject but I will say two things. Deschamps doesn't select youth players that haven't been at Clairefontaine and that he doesn't know personally, so Camavinga was never going to be the one replacing Matuidi, it was always going to be the one that trained with the team before. He may have been called in March depending on what Deschamps thought about his character and fit with the group but that's only a guess.
Because it's offensive to Rooney.
 

JPRouve

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Because it's offensive to Rooney.
It's not, it's a simple comparison between two great youth talents. There is no need be worked up about that, it's not as if Camavinga was an average talent.
 

luke511

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Of course it's an insult to Rooney. He was a fully fledged international starter and goalscorer at 17 and Camavinga is nowhere near that level. Unlike you I actually have watched Camavinga 10+ times this season, he runs around a lot and he has quick feet but he's still positionally extremely suspect and gets dragged around a lot chasing the ball and makes rash challenges and when he does get it he dwells on it and has a tendency to play hollywood balls to nowhere when given time and space. He's not getting in the French squad for a reason, because a team like France can't rely on a 17 year old in the center of the park. It's why he is so much better when Rennes play away, because in games where Rennes are given time and space his lack of maturity shows.

The same thing happened with Renato Sanches at Bayern. Central midfield is a role that gets exponentially harder as the level you're playing at increased. it's part of the reason when he hasn't been a bit-part player in the EL he's not actually done all that well. Playing the anchoring role is an added layer of difficulty again.

Right now it's not just an insult to teenage Rooney, it's an insult to fecking Fred, who is a much better player right now than Camavinga and will be for a good couple of years yet.
Unlike me? Weird thing to say.. A part of my job is to watch Ligue 1 football so you're way off the mark there, I reckon I've watched around 10-15 Rennes games this season myself. If you've actually watched that much of them then you'd be a lot more accepting of his massive potential and talent. Rooney made his debut for England the same age Camavinga was in March, the month the league was suspended so it's an unfair argument. Also Rooney's competiton to partner Owen was Heskey compared to the vast amount of options available to France right now so bringing up international acheivement is just a load of bollocks. Insult to Rooney ffs :lol:
 

Dion

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It's not, it's a simple comparison between two great youth talents. There is no need be worked up about that, it's not as if Camavinga was an average talent.
They're simply not in the same league. Rooney was a generational talent as a teenager. He wasn't a great youth talent.
 

Dion

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Unlike me? Weird thing to say.. A part of my job is to watch Ligue 1 football so you're way off the mark there, I reckon I've watched around 10-15 Rennes games this season myself. If you've actually watched that much of them then you'd be a lot more accepting of his massive potential and talent. Rooney made his debut for England the same age Camavinga was in March, the month the league was suspended so it's an unfair argument. Also Rooney's competiton to partner Owen was Heskey compared to the vast amount of options available to France right now so bringing up international acheivement is just a load of bollocks. Insult to Rooney ffs :lol:
Matteo Guendouzi is Camavinga's competition to get in the French squad. Camavinga does have a lot of potential and he is a great talent. Rooney was an entirely different league to that as a teenager. He wasn't merely a great talent at that age, he was one of the best footballers in the country and was carrying the national team within the year.
 

yan man utd

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This is pure muppet talk, but I feel like these two attainable signings, who are on our radar, would set the club up for major success over the next 5-10 years, we'd be sorted for a decade of great talent all round. The investment in the two players today would definitely pay itself back in future years, a risk free bet in my eyes. Our potential line up with them included:

Strongest XI

Rashford - Martial/Greenwood - Sancho

Pogba - Bruno
Camavinga

Shaw - Maguire - Bailly - AWB

Squad

LW: Rashford, Sancho, James, Martial
CF: Martial, Greenwood
RW: Sancho, James

CAM: Bruno, Pogba
CM: Pogba, Fred, McTominay, Bruno
CDM: Camavinga, McTominay, Fred

LB: Shaw, Williams
CB: Maguire, Bailly, Lindelof, Tuanzebe
RB: Wan Bissaka, Baird

GK: De Gea, Romero, Henderson

With talents like Garner, Mejri & Hoogewerf coming through as well.
couldn’t agree more..
surely more competitive and can see that team/squad being competitive at the top, though I would also love Grealish and possibly another centre back
 

yan man utd

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here comes 50 posts saying we need a left back, a CB, a new goalkeeper, attacking fullbacks, a striker and a new manager...
Funny isn’t it... you can’t legislate for those who focus on the positions which we can’t improve upon. As Gary Neville said, ironically the virus has actually given us time to take stock of the positive qualities off the back of some momentum
 

romufc

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Also Rooney's competiton to partner Owen was Heskey compared to the vast amount of options available to France right now so bringing up international acheivement is just a load of bollocks. Insult to Rooney ffs
When you say a generational talent has vast number of options available, they have to be really good. Owen was an outstanding striker at the time

So he is competing with Sissoko, Kante, Matuidi, Pogba, Tolisso, Ndombole, Gendouzi and the like... if you cannot get in infront of a number of those, you cannot say he is a generational talent.

They get in, like Mbappe did.
 

JPRouve

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When you say a generational talent has vast number of options available, they have to be really good. Owen was an outstanding striker at the time

So he is competing with Sissoko, Kante, Matuidi, Pogba, Tolisso, Ndombole, Gendouzi and the like... if you cannot get in infront of a number of those, you cannot say he is a generational talent.

They get in, like Mbappe did.
Mbappé didn't get in at 16 years old which is the age Camavinga had when the last international list was made. I don't know if he is a generational talent or not and I believe that it's a claim that you make with hindsight anything else is premature but people are "criticizing" Camavinga because he hasn't been selected at an age that would be close to the record for France and not taking into account that he wasn't elligible to play for France before November 2019.
 

luke511

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When you say a generational talent has vast number of options available, they have to be really good. Owen was an outstanding striker at the time

So he is competing with Sissoko, Kante, Matuidi, Pogba, Tolisso, Ndombole, Gendouzi and the like... if you cannot get in infront of a number of those, you cannot say he is a generational talent.

They get in, like Mbappe did.
Mbappe didn't get into the side until he was 18. There was a 4 month window between 5th November (when he became eligible) and March (when the league was suspended) for Camavinga to get into the senior side, France played 2 games in early November and that's it so it works out it was impossible for him to get an appearance in that time anyway. There's a chance he would've been considered and maybe selected for this summer who knows, bringing international achievement into it as a reason why Camavinga isn't as much of a wonderkid talent as Rooney was isn't fair at all.
 

romufc

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Mbappé didn't get in at 16 years old which is the age Camavinga had when the last international list was made. I don't know if he is a generational talent or not and I believe that it's a claim that you make with hindsight anything else is premature but people are "criticizing" Camavinga because he hasn't been selected at an age that would be close to the record for France and not taking into account that he wasn't elligible to play for France before November 2019.
I am not saying he should or shouldn't get in, I was pointing out to the poster that he may think there is a vast number of players ahead of him which isn't entirely true. Out of the players that get in I would say Kante and Pogba are top draw.
 

JPRouve

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I am not saying he should or shouldn't get in, I was pointing out to the poster that he may think there is a vast number of players ahead of him which isn't entirely true. Out of the players that get in I would say Kante and Pogba are top draw.
That's not what you did, you questioned the level of his talent based on a flawed analysis. And your conclusion was also wrong, Mbappé didn't get into the team earlier because we wanted to keep him with the U19 and be competitive at this level. I wouldn't be surprised if Camavinga stays with the U21 for the same reason, though the amount recurring injuries among our CMs will most likely see him be selected very quickly which is a shame, it would be nice to see him thrive among his peers and maybe grow as a leader at international level.
 

luke511

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Matteo Guendouzi is Camavinga's competition to get in the French squad. Camavinga does have a lot of potential and he is a great talent. Rooney was an entirely different league to that as a teenager. He wasn't merely a great talent at that age, he was one of the best footballers in the country and was carrying the national team within the year.
Camavinga winning the most tackles out of any midfielder in Europe is like a 17 year old Rooney winning the golden boot so that put's him up there in wonderkid terms in my opinion. There was a lot of amazing players in the Prem in 2004 so that's a massive statement to say he was one of the best at 17, you could say Camavinga is one of the best players outside of PSGs team anyway as he's Rennes best player and they finished 3rd. He's a special talent like Rooney was, but I'm happy to agree to disagree at this point!
 

OleTheGreat

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This is pure muppet talk, but I feel like these two attainable signings, who are on our radar, would set the club up for major success over the next 5-10 years, we'd be sorted for a decade of great talent all round. The investment in the two players today would definitely pay itself back in future years, a risk free bet in my eyes. Our potential line up with them included:

Strongest XI

Rashford - Martial/Greenwood - Sancho

Pogba - Bruno
Camavinga

Shaw - Maguire - Bailly - AWB

Squad

LW: Rashford, Sancho, James, Martial
CF: Martial, Greenwood
RW: Sancho, James

CAM: Bruno, Pogba
CM: Pogba, Fred, McTominay, Bruno
CDM: Camavinga, McTominay, Fred

LB: Shaw, Williams
CB: Maguire, Bailly, Lindelof, Tuanzebe
RB: Wan Bissaka, Baird

GK: De Gea, Romero, Henderson

With talents like Garner, Mejri & Hoogewerf coming through as well.
Dalot can fit in as a sub for Wan Bissaka at RB
 

OleTheGreat

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I don't know much about this Camavinga, but i do not think we need a DM now. Matic, Fred and Mctominay are good enough to rotate for all 4 competitions. I think Lindelof is a good ball player and can support Maguire really well but i think Bailly is robust and should be trusted to do most of the dirty work in front of De Gea. Pogba and Bruno can handle the midfield and if we managed to get Sancho, i think we'll be lethal. Martial needs a lot of work but with Ole at the helm, he'll improve and make huge strides forward. Although i hope we can buy Dembele or buy Odion off from the Shanghai club. It looks very promising for 2020-21 season. I hope we are very close to the top and make it to the Sf of the CL. Anything more will be a happy surprise.
 

luke511

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I don't know much about this Camavinga, but i do not think we need a DM now. Matic, Fred and Mctominay are good enough to rotate for all 4 competitions. I think Lindelof is a good ball player and can support Maguire really well but i think Bailly is robust and should be trusted to do most of the dirty work in front of De Gea. Pogba and Bruno can handle the midfield and if we managed to get Sancho, i think we'll be lethal. Martial needs a lot of work but with Ole at the helm, he'll improve and make huge strides forward. Although i hope we can buy Dembele or buy Odion off from the Shanghai club. It looks very promising for 2020-21 season. I hope we are very close to the top and make it to the Sf of the CL. Anything more will be a happy surprise.
I agree with you mate, I've gone back to the thread which defensive midfielder? and found this comment by me from Feb

CAM = 1st option Bruno, 2nd option Grealish
No.8 = 1st option Grealish, 2nd option Fred, 3rd option McTominay
No.6 = 1st option Fred, 2nd option McTominay, 3rd option Matic

That would work fine for next season.
I still believe our current options can do a good job there at the moment, the point is that we'd be signing the best talent on the planet in that position replacing Matic in the squad as our only specialist CDM, that's what gives us another edge :)
 

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I agree with you mate, I've gone back to the thread which defensive midfielder? and found this comment by me from Feb



I still believe our current options can do a good job there at the moment, the point is that we'd be signing the best talent on the planet in that position replacing Matic in the squad as our only specialist CDM, that's what gives us another edge :)
True but in that case i hope it is Saul Niguez from Atleti. He's still young but expensive. He's be perfect for us and he is an amazing player who can set off counter attacking play very quickly, sees passes so quickly and plays wonderful balls through the lines and in behind. Mctominay is a stubborn player but i still think he can learn a lot from Matic in terms of breaking up plays and playing the ball forward. Fred closes in so quickly but again he doesn't have a quick turn away from the player on him. Deception and deceit is one of the most important trait of a DM. Busquets, Xavi, take even Rodri for that matter, Pirlo, all these guys have such beautiful turns on their heels. I hope we find one who has that capability. Kante also comes to mind.
 

Dion

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Camavinga winning the most tackles out of any midfielder in Europe is like a 17 year old Rooney winning the golden boot so that put's him up there in wonderkid terms in my opinion. There was a lot of amazing players in the Prem in 2004 so that's a massive statement to say he was one of the best at 17, you could say Camavinga is one of the best players outside of PSGs team anyway as he's Rennes best player and they finished 3rd. He's a special talent like Rooney was, but I'm happy to agree to disagree at this point!
This isn't a thing. What are you even saying?

I mean we'll ignore the fact that of the major leagues the French league is by far the "tackliest" (10 of the top 20 tackling teams in europe are French, including Rennes) , since when has tackling a lot ever been remotely comparable with scoring goals?
 

luke511

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This isn't a thing. What are you even saying?

I mean we'll ignore the fact that of the major leagues the French league is by far the "tackliest" (10 of the top 20 tackling teams in europe are French, including Rennes) , since when has tackling a lot ever been remotely comparable with scoring goals?
Successful tackles per game is a great measure how good a player is defensively, and he's at the top of the list, similar to how goals, assists, dribbles, are used to measure offensive player performance, it was a mere analogy don't take it so literally.
 

Dion

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Successful tackles per game is a great measure how good a player is defensively, and he's at the top of the list, similar to how goals, assists, dribbles, are used to measure offensive player performance, it was a mere analogy don't take it so literally.
They're absolutely not though. They're a sign of how the team plays and the role in their team. Ricardo Pereira isn't the best defensive player in the league.
 

Sayros

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When you say a generational talent has vast number of options available, they have to be really good. Owen was an outstanding striker at the time

So he is competing with Sissoko, Kante, Matuidi, Pogba, Tolisso, Ndombole, Gendouzi and the like... if you cannot get in infront of a number of those, you cannot say he is a generational talent.

They get in, like Mbappe did.
I don't know how fair of a comparison that is. First of all, Mbappe is an even greater talent than Rooney (who was an incredible talent for his age already), he is truly a generational in every sense of the word and even that becomes redundant to say, he's now just a world-class top 5 striker in the world, so anyone is going to fall short, but especially a midfielder.

You have to take into account the positions. France is very strong in midfield, Deschamps being a player there himself requires experience. I mean we can agree Laporte has been one of the best CB in the world for some time and he has yet to get into the squad, so talent and ability is not all it takes to get into the France team. But the issues Laporte has aren't issues that will come up with Camavinga, mainly personality. Deschamps gave Pogba a chance by 19, but France was rebuilding itself at that time and was nowhere near the level they are at now. When Mbappe came in, there were less options available at his position. Camavinga JUST became eligible for France, he's just started making himself known in his first season, and he's already considered a top 3 talent by most scouts (not that it means anything concrete in the long run, but still impressive). So he's definitely on his way. I think it's silly to compare Rooney to Camavinga, but not so much because of the talent, but the fact it's two different positions, countries, and circumstances.
 

luke511

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They're absolutely not though. They're a sign of how the team plays and the role in their team. Ricardo Pereira isn't the best defensive player in the league.
It is a good measure for it jesus christ, how can it not be? I'm not saying it directly correlates them into being the best defender solely on that statistic like you make out, but it's a good measure on a certain aspect of their game, like goals, assists, dribbles, passing. If you are a leader in any of those across the top leagues then you're a gifted player, Camavinga basically is in tackling and he's only 17 playing as a defensive mid, you following?
 

TheRedHearted

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A squad needs depth. Once we have an even better starting 11 we will he more attractive to bring in even more depth. But we don’t have that at the momen. It’ll take much more then just bringing them in because depth wins a league and when it comes to traveling and playing in tournaments even more stress on players (which the modern game does even more on them). It would make us compete with them but putting us over the line on points will come to a decent amount of luck as well. Something any winning team had
 

romufc

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France is very strong in midfield, Deschamps being a player there himself requires experience
This is not true.. Who are their midfielders you would say are WC? I am talking CDM and CM?

So an International team needs a player of experience, what difference is it for Manutd? However talented this lad is, I do not think he would take us to another level in the immediate future. We have such a young squad already with relative inexperience in the middle of the park with Mct Fred who are only shining in the last 6 months.
 

Sayros

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This is not true.. Who are their midfielders you would say are WC? I am talking CDM and CM?

So an International team needs a player of experience, what difference is it for Manutd? However talented this lad is, I do not think he would take us to another level in the immediate future. We have such a young squad already with relative inexperience in the middle of the park with Mct Fred who are only shining in the last 6 months.
WC is a subjective term, and not every midfielder needs to be WC to be ahead of a Camavinga, I'd say Kante (despite his club form), Pogba, and Tolisso are comfortably ahead, then you can look at Ndombele, Sissoko, Lemar, and Gendouzi as being in the mix as well. Either way, it's a lot for any 17 years old midfielder to get in. Being WC is not the be all and end all to being in Deschamps' side, he's passed on what most would consider WC players to get players that fit in more with what he's looking for. However, it's only a matter of time for Camavinga to get in, his attitude and work ethic are exactly what Deschamps is looking for, and I believe after Euro 2021 he will be getting him involved, maybe even before then depending on how things shape up with international football.

I don't think I've ever suggested he'd take United to a new level immediately, I simply said he would be a 10-15 year investment assuming the club can hold on to him where he would begin to contribute as soon as next season as he grows into a potential starter.
 

JPRouve

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WC is a subjective term, and not every midfielder needs to be WC to be ahead of a Camavinga, I'd say Kante (despite his club form), Pogba, and Tolisso are comfortably ahead, then you can look at Ndombele, Sissoko, Lemar, and Gendouzi as being in the mix as well. Either way, it's a lot for any 17 years old midfielder to get in. Being WC is not the be all and end all to being in Deschamps' side, he's passed on what most would consider WC players to get players that fit in more with what he's looking for. However, it's only a matter of time for Camavinga to get in, his attitude and work ethic are exactly what Deschamps is looking for, and I believe after Euro 2021 he will be getting him involved, maybe even before then depending on how things shape up with international football.

I don't think I've ever suggested he'd take United to a new level immediately, I simply said he would be a 10-15 year investment assuming the club can hold on to him where he would begin to contribute as soon as next season as he grows into a potential starter.
He will most likely be among the kids that train with the senior team, as Guendouzi was. If he fits with the group in terms of attitude on and off the training pitch, he could be in the team this year.
 

Dion

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It is a good measure for it jesus christ, how can it not be? I'm not saying it directly correlates them into being the best defender solely on that statistic like you make out, but it's a good measure on a certain aspect of their game, like goals, assists, dribbles, passing. If you are a leader in any of those across the top leagues then you're a gifted player, Camavinga basically is in tackling and he's only 17 playing as a defensive mid, you following?
You said it was the same as Rooney winning the golden boot. This is insanity.

Tackles are far more a function of the playing style of the team than of individual defensive ability.
 

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This seems like a fairly silly argument but I hope that somebody has mentioned that central midfield generally requires a lot more maturity to play at the top level than a forward would. Youthful exuberance and skill on the ball is no substitute for positioning and decision making in midfield.
 

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For all this silly arguing it's clear to see Camavinga is an absolute baller. Who walks into a top tier team at 16/17 and then wins MOTM in a cup final against PSG? he's clearly very, very good.
 

luke511

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You said it was the same as Rooney winning the golden boot. This is insanity.

Tackles are far more a function of the playing style of the team than of individual defensive ability.
Stop using words like insanity and insulting, it sounds daft. It was a loose analogy mate, get over it. Wan Bissaka is a great example of how the statistics back up the defensive ability, it's the same thing with Camavinga. This is the last time I'm replying to you because I've lost enough braincells having to re explain everything for you.
 

luke511

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For all this silly arguing it's clear to see Camavinga is an absolute baller. Who walks into a top tier team at 16/17 and then wins MOTM in a cup final against PSG? he's clearly very, very good.
Thank you!
 

Dion

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Stop using words like insanity and insulting, it sounds daft. It was a loose analogy mate, get over it. Wan Bissaka is a great example of how the statistics back up the defensive ability, it's the same thing with Camavinga. This is the last time I'm replying to you because I've lost enough braincells having to re explain everything for you.
It's completely apt in this case though.

Wan Bissaka does make a lot of tackles, because he's raw and gets caught out of position quite frequently. Ashley Cole on the other hand didn't make lots of tackles, who was the better defensive player?

The best defensive midfielders don't make lots of tackles. Carrick didn't make lots of tackles, Busquets doesn't make lots of tackles, Fabinho and Fernandinho don't.
 

luke511

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It's completely apt in this case though.

Wan Bissaka does make a lot of tackles, because he's raw and gets caught out of position quite frequently. Ashley Cole on the other hand didn't make lots of tackles, who was the better defensive player?

The best defensive midfielders don't make lots of tackles. Carrick didn't make lots of tackles, Busquets doesn't make lots of tackles, Fabinho and Fernandinho don't.
Being an exceptional tackler is a big strength for defensive midfielders, as it was for someone like Roy Keane, how is that so hard to understand? If you actually watched the player properly you'd realise that his numbers aren't just a byproduct of a tactical set up. Watch this and you'll see a bit of sense maybe..

 

Dion

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Being an exceptional tackler is a big strength for defensive midfielders, as it was for someone like Roy Keane, how is that so hard to understand?
Roy Keane was an exceptional tackler who didn't have to tackle very much because he was also exceptional in his positioning. It's a strength for a defensive midfielder, but tackling a lot does not make you an exceptional tackler, it means you end up in lots of situations where you need to make a tackle.

You're conflating making lots of tackles with being a great defensive player. They aren't the same.