With what we have: How do we stop the hole in our central defence?

diarm

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De Gea
Fosu-Mensah --- Tuanzebe -
Dalot --------------- Matic --------------- Shaw
Pereira ----- Fred --
Lingard
Lukaku ------- Martial​
 

ash_86

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Love won't make them better than they are.

Last season Mourinho protected the defence by restricting our midfield. However, people complained that it was boring and it was killing Pogba.

So now, perhaps to prove a point, we're now playing a more open game. For three games running we've tried to play a more open game, two of them without a proper defensive midfielder and then last night by pressing high and going at Spurs.

If we were clinical that might be a way forward but we're missing open goals. :rolleyes:

If Jose goes back to being ultra defensive we'll probably win more but there will be more criticism that we're too defensive.

We've now had two managers, Van Gaal and Mourinho, who have come in, assessed our squad and decided that the only way forward is to play two holding midfielders and make sure the wingers can play disciplined to protect the full backs. Neither of these managers are idiots. Our defence is weak and without investment the only way to protect it is to play in a low block with two banks of four.

Pep Guardiola is one the best attacking coaches in the world but what did he do when he arrived at City and saw Hart, DeMichellis, Clichy, Sagna, Kolarov, Zabaleta etc? He binned them off. Then he binned off Bravo, then mid season after spending £50m on Stones he bought £60m Laporte to supplement Kompany and Otamendi. My point? Even the best coaches in the world cannot turn dirt into gold. They're not alchemists.

Without better defenders we cannot play expansive football. If we play expansive football we cannot protect that defence. The goals will continue to leak.
Well said.
 

AndersB

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I honestly think our best choice right now is to just play Bailly (alongside Smalling) and let him get stable gametime (almost) regardless of performance. The talent is so obviously there, and at his best, he is - imo - a top PL defender. Not sure he'll get consistent or mature if he gets dropped when he fecks up.

Lindelöf, on the other hand, I see very little of the same promise in.

Maybe Valencia could develop into a right sided part of a three, but not sure it fits our other defenders right now anyway.
 

RedDevil@84

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Love won't make them better than they are.

Last season Mourinho protected the defence by restricting our midfield. However, people complained that it was boring and it was killing Pogba.

So now, perhaps to prove a point, we're now playing a more open game. For three games running we've tried to play a more open game, two of them without a proper defensive midfielder and then last night by pressing high and going at Spurs.

If we were clinical that might be a way forward but we're missing open goals. :rolleyes:

If Jose goes back to being ultra defensive we'll probably win more but there will be more criticism that we're too defensive.

We've now had two managers, Van Gaal and Mourinho, who have come in, assessed our squad and decided that the only way forward is to play two holding midfielders and make sure the wingers can play disciplined to protect the full backs. Neither of these managers are idiots. Our defence is weak and without investment the only way to protect it is to play in a low block with two banks of four.

Pep Guardiola is one the best attacking coaches in the world but what did he do when he arrived at City and saw Hart, DeMichellis, Clichy, Sagna, Kolarov, Zabaleta etc? He binned them off. Then he binned off Bravo, then mid season after spending £50m on Stones he bought £60m Laporte to supplement Kompany and Otamendi. My point? Even the best coaches in the world cannot turn dirt into gold. They're not alchemists.

Without better defenders we cannot play expansive football. If we play expansive football we cannot protect that defence. The goals will continue to leak.
Well written
 

stevoc

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It's not something I'd want to see but is something I can see Jose dping
Fair enough mate, and i suppose you were right he did try it yesterday. Mourinho i feel doesn't know how to set up a 352 properly, not surprising given he's mostly players 433/4231 his whole career.

Even watching the line-up yesterday i was thinking most managers would have put Smalling on the right of the 3 and Herrera in the centre so he could step up into midfield when needed. But it's odd Herrera was playing there in the first place considering Lindelof was on the bench and Bailly was fit but not even in the squad. Mourinho is making some strange decisions these days.
 

gza the genius

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Give Smalling a run in the team with Bailly or Lindelof, pick one. That's really the only thing we can do. I still think both Bailly and Lindelof have a lot of potential and can make it here but as of right now they're definitely not ready to play together and Smalling is our best, most experienced central defender.
 

JJ12

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5-3-2

Bailly
Smalling
Rojo

Back 3
 

Chris60

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No idea who I'd pick anymore, but whoever is picked needs to be given 10 games to create a partnership
 

RoyH1

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Grow the grass at Old Trafford reaaally long and force teams to play Norway 94 style.

Sharpshooters in the stands with those ice bullets from urban legend

If all else fails, ring Rio and Vidic in for a friendly workshop with our CB's
 

BusbyMalone

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How much does De Gea factor into all this? Seems to me that our defending last season wasn't particularly great and we would often make mistakes like we've seen this season so far, but would get bailed out by De Gea. He isn't doing that anymore so we just seem to be reverting to a type of normalcy. He was doing some super-human shit last season that quite clearly wasn't sustainable in the long run.

That's why when people would often cite our defensive record as some sort of warped reasoning why our defenders were actually performing well, it really didn't make much sense to me. We were conceding a crazy amount of shots on goal but due to the aforementioned brilliance of De Gea, our goals conceded was actually quite low.

I'm actually a little worried about Dave. I'm sure he'll be fine, but this defence seems to be taking it's toll on him tbh
 

SpyLuke10

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PLAY A 3 ATB FORMATION, 2 OF WHICH SHOULD BE ERIC "F##### OFFFF" BAILLY AND "MIKE" SMALLING.
DON'T PLAY JONES.
 

Rozay

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With all the fuss made about our centre halves not being good enough all summer, I find it astounding we didn’t sell any. It’s so clear they aren’t good enough.

How the likes if Jones and Rojo survived the summer is a mystery. We should never have entertained bringing in more centre halves before we started chasing more. The issue is we probably want VVD money for that trash. Lindelöf needs to leave too. Tuanzebe is better than him.
 

Oldyella

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How can we sell our existing defenders when Woodward is unable to find replacements, especially given the fitness levels of our defenders.
No one really knows why the board didnt push hard for another CB this summer, but I could easily see the board knocking that request back given we have 5 around the 1st team, 2 of which were Jose's signings for big cash. He should of said Jones and Rojo were of no use and pushed them out, and replace them with someone of better quality who could start with Smalling.
 

Un4givableB

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With all the fuss made about our centre halves not being good enough all summer, I find it astounding we didn’t sell any. It’s so clear they aren’t good enough.

.
To sell somebody needs to want to buy, our centre halves are not trash but just not top four quality but they are paid like top four quality, so their wages are a problem for smaller clubs.
 

Footyislife

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Too late for that mate.
And as you saw yesterday, all our CBs are bang average. I think Smalling might be the best.
Lindelof and Baily are still young, learning and may come good.
Jones, on the other hand, should be told that he will never play in the first team ever again.

I did notice during LVG's time, that when the opponent got past our midfield, they'd cut through our defenders like a hot knife through butter and then DDG would have to make a save. I saw this on numerous occasions.
Many said that our defence was good, but IMO it wasn't. We had to defend as a team in order to protect our defender from getting exposed...who were poor.

For the first time in a while, we saw us play with an attacking mindset. This meant that midfielders were told to play further up the pitch and focus on attack. This meant that our defenders would have to defend.
When this was asked of them, we all saw the result: 3 goals conceded in a single half.

The only answer is to buy 2 new defenders. Woodward should've listened to Jose and got Toby. Whether Jose stays or doesn't, we need a top quality defender immediately.
Lol even if we had Toby or Varane we'd still get cut up. The issue is we don't press and rely on our compact shape/communication to defend. However, our midfield without Herrera/Fellaini gets cut up too easily. Fred/Pogba are out of position & don't have the focus to do a proper defensive shift. Matic is decent, but can't move so he leaves too many gaps that are easily exploited.

Which then forces Mou to play more compact limiting our FBs/CMs from going forward and making our wings look terrible as they play as wide midfielders. This leaves them without any build up support when we win the ball back & our opponents are out of their defensive shape. So we either hold the ball wait for the support and then face he difficult task of unlocking a set defence or we lose the ball because we are outnumbered on the counter.

That is why most top teams press nowadays. So much easier to put pressure on the other team to disrupt their play, and regardless of how well your players understand positioning or their focus they are still used effectively. Also generates more chances where the opponent is outside of their defensive shape.

Which is why our football looked so exciting yesterday. Only issue is you need mobile players to execute, playing Matic was idiotic in that system, and why Herrera played RCB when Bailly/Lindelof were available only Mou knows. If he'd played Bailly at RCB & Herrera instead of Matic we'd probably have won that game
 

SapperBRed75

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Where's the DOF?
I think our best first choice pair is Bailly with either Smalling/Rojo and Matic shielding. Jones is done at this level, and Lindelof is currently a distance short of the quality/confidence level we need. We need to bring in a defensive specialist to the coaching team - a coach that plays defensively is not the same thing. I think Rio has played recently enough to understand the modern game, he gets United and from a young age he coped with the expectation of being a first choice centre back. At his best, he was quick, strong and intelligent - much that we now miss. Bring him in as a consultant.
 

AlwaysRed66

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Might as well put Lukaku in the back three, as he is certainly big enough to stop anything getting through, & might actually score more from set pieces.
 

ToToMarshall

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I'm not looking towards Marcos Rojo as some sort of saviour of our defence, but I think he could be important for us playing a back-three/back-five moving forward. None of our other central-defenders (Bailly, Smalling, Lindeloöf or Jones) can play on the left of a 3. Lindelöf is probably the most comfortable in-terms of contributing to our build-up, but the way he defends space when dragged out wide is laughable. Now Blind has gone, Rojo is the only player we have who can play there.

I'd like to see a backline of:

--------------De Gea
--------Bailly-Lindelöf-Rojo
Valencia--------------------Shaw

It's not perfect, but I think that it's the best combination we have to limp through this crappy situation we're in. We have Smalling, Young, Jones, Darmian and Dalot, and even Matic or Herrera to supplement it if necessary. Something like this with Matic screening and Pogba and Fred further ahead would make us more stable. We haven't got any proper wingers anyway, so what's the point in trying to play with them? Lingard can play in a midfield 3, and Alexis, Martial and Rashford can play with Lukaku up-top.
 

edcunited1878

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To play the sort of football everyone dreads on this forum, we tried to play on the front foot yesterday. Mourinho worked out a good plan, Herrera's position was confusing the shit out of Spurs and it allowed one of the runners from midfield to constantly break through their lines. We just shot ourselves in the foot with the mistake on 1st goal and after that heads dropped, they seemed resigned to accepting their fate at that point.

His job is on the line and next two away games are crucial, he is going to set us up ultra defensively from here on. Think Chelsea 14/15 second half of the season where they played utter shite football but went without a defeat. So I expect him to station two DMs ahead of Smalling and Bailly/Lindelof and try to grind out results. Doesn't bode well for this forum though, it's going to get even more toxic from here on when it comes to football.
Results > performance. You don't finish with 81 points without the necessary performances. Would be interesting to see a Matic and Pereira double with Sanchez ahead, behind Lukaku and Martial/Rashford and Lingard on the flanks. And yes, I omitted Pogba because he's not functional atm.