Woodward, Glazers....

RedDevil@84

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Woodward is 150% a bigger problem at this club than the Glazers
The Glazers obviously don't think Woodward is a problem. Else he would have been fired.
So I guess one can safely assume they are happy with things as it is - being the old Arsenal
 

Ralph1386

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Basically, the emotions of millions of United fans around the world are controlled by a bunch of bankers who don’t know anything about football or this club.
 

Jaqen H'ghar

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So you are trying to make the point that they don't care about actually making money and don't care about making more money with the same level of investment? And everything will always be signed off by the owner, it tells us nothing that's how every single entity on earth work.
It's quite simple, really.
1- They care about money. Football is just a byproduct.
2- United is making them a lot of money. If it ain't broke don't try to fix it and all that.
3- Woodward's oversight of the football side has been terrible. But it's OK as long as we're profitable.
4- A lot of business owners delegate to more knowledgeable people and trust their judgment, without the need to micromanage on every issue. But Joel probably understands that he knows as much (or little) about football as Ed, so what the hell, he'll oversee the club himself.
 

JPRouve

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It's quite simple, really.
1- They care about money. Football is just a byproduct.
2- United is making them a lot of money. If it ain't broke don't try to fix it and all that.
3- Woodward's oversight of the football side has been terrible. But it's OK as long as we're profitable.
4- A lot of business owners delegate to more knowledgeable people and trust their judgment, without the need to micromanage on every issue. But Joel probably understands that he knows as much (or little) about football as Ed, so what the hell, he'll oversee the club himself.
United doesn't make them a lot of money though, today all dividends represent 23.3m that sum is shared between all shareholders. Even if you considered that the Glazers are the only one being paid that's 3.9m per children and keep in mind that before 2016 dividends weren't yearly. Delegating doesn't mean that the owners don't sign off on big expenses, it's a silly point to make. And United is definitely broke that's why the club is spending CL contender money while failing to qualify for the CL which means that a substantial amount of money that could go in the owners pockets is wasted on subpar players and gifted to other clubs.
 

Jaqen H'ghar

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United doesn't make them a lot of money though, today all dividends represent 23.3m that sum is shared between all shareholders. Even if you considered that the Glazers are the only one being paid that's 3.9m per children and keep in mind that before 2016 dividends weren't yearly. Delegating doesn't mean that the owners don't sign off on big expenses, it's a silly point to make. And United is definitely broke that's why the club is spending CL contender money while failing to qualify for the CL which means that a substantial amount of money that could go in the owners pockets is wasted on subpar players and gifted to other clubs.
I get what you're trying to say, that they could have made more for what they have spent (and I think everyone agrees on that), I do think they have done well enough though.

They paid practically nothing for the club, so any return is a lot. The club is worth about six times what they bought it for, so they've made a lot more than just the dividends and consultancy fees.

The spending has been enough to keep us challenging for top four or thereabouts. It could have been better spent, and seen us do better, but only managers have been sacked, and only when they failed to get top 4. So it seems like incompetence coupled with a lack of ambition. That they haven't shaken up the structure says they are generally satisfied with the way things are going.
 

Mickeza

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United doesn't make them a lot of money though, today all dividends represent 23.3m that sum is shared between all shareholders. Even if you considered that the Glazers are the only one being paid that's 3.9m per children and keep in mind that before 2016 dividends weren't yearly. Delegating doesn't mean that the owners don't sign off on big expenses, it's a silly point to make. And United is definitely broke that's why the club is spending CL contender money while failing to qualify for the CL which means that a substantial amount of money that could go in the owners pockets is wasted on subpar players and gifted to other clubs.
It makes them fortunes. They have the yearly dividend, they each pay themselves a consultancy salary and the club pays off the loan they took out to buy the club meaning they now have a £3bn asset for essentially nothing. I do agree with your general point though, making latter stages of the CL every year means far higher revenues. You don’t pay 80m for Harry Maguire if you’re just trying to get 4th. I do think they want us to be winning again as that’s ultimately in their interests. They’re just absolute awful at doing it.
 

sammsky1

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Matthew84!

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If i lived closer to the ground I'd of already tried to put a banner up, something has to be done,
 

sammsky1

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Yeah, they’re not going anywhere... :lol: Nor is Woodward, for that matter.
Massive protest outside Stadium won’t do any harm in making them spend though. Would make international headline news.

These guys might even pull it off given that our usual 70000 odd regular match goers haven’t had an excuse to visit the stadium for 6 months. If I lived near Manchester I’d go!
 

No Love

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Massive protest outside Stadium won’t do any harm in making them spend though. Would make international headline news.

These guys might even pull it off given that our usual 70000 odd regular match goers haven’t had an excuse to visit the stadium for 6 months. If I lived near Manchester I’d go!
In fairness, you’re right about potentially jolting them into putting the cash down for a couple of signings. I could see that happening. Appeasement 101, essentially. However, I just can’t see the Glazers walking away from their cash cow over such a thing. I’d love to be wrong, mind you. Will be interesting to watch, regardless.
 

Eckers99

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starting this evening, being copy/pasted all over twitter

About as likely as everyone walking out in the 68th minute the last time Twitter planned a protest. Or the time before that when about 6 people turned up outside.
 

Judge Red

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Rival fans will be loving this. I’m not completely comfortable with letting our current squad know we don’t think they’re good enough in such an obvious way before a ball has been kicked this season.

There’ll be plenty of time for that down the line!
 

hmchan

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Yeah, they’re not going anywhere... :lol: Nor is Woodward, for that matter.
Can't believe so many think Woodward could be sacked. He is making good money for the club and he is a good puppet for the Glazers. From the board's point of view, he's doing an excellent job.
 

murali_red

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There is no intention on removing the debt, there never was. This was always the plan, bring the debt to a manageable number and then restructure it so we pay circa 20m in interest payment but the debt remains. The financial analysts in the thread can tell why that makes financial sense.

We also just got an 150m fresh debt to cover operational costs and the losses we will get from covid. So the debt it is actually increasing (it may go down to the same number we have in the future). And yes, if we want to invest in the stadium, it will likely be from a new debt.

Debt is actually not bad and makes financial sense. If it was that bad and wouldn’t have made sense, they would have paid it long time ago by selling only 10% of the stocks. But yet they are perfectly comfortable on keeping it (despite that the interest payments for 20 years are as big as just paying the debt in one go, and well, the debt still remains), and those feckers might be clueless at the football side, but they know how to run a business.

The debt really has not been a problem for a long time.
Yes debt is not a problem as it helps in evading taxes and more leverage, that is fine from business point of view and with our revenues the interest payments are not a problem either, problem is they are running it like business not the best football club, the upside for a PL or UCL trophy may not be that much for them considering the investment needed compared to Top 4, that is why coach / fans need to continually be at them for success with the limitations they put. I am starting to like Roman a bit, as though he does some shady things, he is ruthless of success, Real Madrid it is about Presidential race and politics, Barcelona is difficult with so many stakeholders, City wants to build a brand with so many acquisitions, Liverpool are in luck with klopp but with our revenue, brand and history, Glazers are just happy for 4th.
Reminds me of the Arsene days where he always felt 4th place is good enough to keep his job.
 

oz insomniac

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Is it noticeable that the 2 most pro Woody/Glazers posters are JPRouve and Keefy and yet it’s apparent that they don’t post at the same time, makes you wonder if the Woodward burner accounts and secretary’s ppstings come form the same source.

All this deflection re the pandemic and how realistic we have to be and that the Glazers take minimal from the club, actually anything they take is too big given they have never put a dollar in, their ownership comes from clever financial Manouvering by Woodward which took no investment from them at all. They preside over a club that has increased in value by over $3 billion so why should they give a sh*t about success and spending, when they care little and can borrow millions against the shares ( as they frequently do).

The inaction this window when the opportunity to become competitive again Underlines their real interest in Man Utd, answer none other than the financial return garnered by Woody and his merchant banker cohorts. Woodward and Judges attempts to bring those skills to football related matters suck, end of. On the other side of the world out of the media work done by the parasites really show its going to be a long and bumpy ride. Matt Busby and even Sir Alex must be aghast at what has happened to this great club, once a juggernaut, now a Toby jug.
 

roonster09

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Is it noticeable that the 2 most pro Woody/Glazers posters are JPRouve and Keefy and yet it’s apparent that they don’t post at the same time, makes you wonder if the Woodward burner accounts and secretary’s ppstings come form the same source.
@JPRouve @Keefy18

:lol:
 

RedDevil@84

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Is it noticeable that the 2 most pro Woody/Glazers posters are JPRouve and Keefy and yet it’s apparent that they don’t post at the same time, makes you wonder if the Woodward burner accounts and secretary’s ppstings come form the same source.
Wow. They must be getting paid in hundred of thousands of pounds every year.
 

simonhch

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I’m no fan of either but our recruitment has been really good since Ole came in. Given that only oil rich or sugar daddy clubs are spending any real money in this climate, I fail to understand the general mouth frothing at not spending vast gobs of cash during such economically volatile times.

It’s a tough summer for everyone, and like it or not being financial prudent right now is probably in the best long term interests of the club. Let’s see what happens in the coming weeks. What is clear is that there is a massive lack of appreciation for the complexities of running a large company amongst our fan base.
 

Marcus

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The Glazers are just gutless investors, not fans. They are gutless because while they are rich, they are nothing compared to Russian Oligarchs or Oil-rich states. They are only interested in money - either through dividends or increase in share price to sell. If I were them, I would do one last hurrah and get out. Maybe buy Sancho, Mbappe, Alba, wait for the share price to rocket and then start selling their shares. One can dream.
 

Loon

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Remember how the green and gold folks were mocked when good old "Woody" was spending United money thanks to the benevolent Malcolm?

Seems so long ago... Sadly it's only the green and gold which have disappeared.
 

devilish

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I’m no fan of either but our recruitment has been really good since Ole came in. Given that only oil rich or sugar daddy clubs are spending any real money in this climate, I fail to understand the general mouth frothing at not spending vast gobs of cash during such economically volatile times.

It’s a tough summer for everyone, and like it or not being financial prudent right now is probably in the best long term interests of the club. Let’s see what happens in the coming weeks. What is clear is that there is a massive lack of appreciation for the complexities of running a large company amongst our fan base.
If they can't afford United then they should sell. It's as simple as that. We signed just 1 player and were only able to get rid of 1 of the many deadwood. That stinks of incompetence.
 

JPRouve

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Can you please ask Woodward if we are buying any player, as apparently you and Keefy post from Woody's office.
He isn't responding since I called him and Glazers incompetent. I'll give it an other try later.;)
 

JPRouve

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If they can't afford United then they should sell. It's as simple as that. We signed just 1 player and were only able to get rid of 1 of the many deadwood. That stinks of incompetence.
The issue is that the people that can "afford" United don't want United, it's not a good investment unless if you make the club buy itself. Billionaires are for the vast majority not completely stupid when it comes to money and they are not going to give up a substantial amount of their actual wealth in order to have the right to spend even more money on a football club. If they really want to a football club, they will most likely look at far cheaper options.
 

Strelok

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I decided to have a look but then I started to question myself what's the point of looking into the annual financial reports up to 2011? The club spent around £500m in 2011 and now it's 2020? Why you used the amount the club paid until 2011 to discuss when we're bloody in 2020? We stop paying debt and interests for the Glazers from 2011?

Yes, we would pay more taxes on our revenue. And no the club hasn't spend north of 800m, it's around 500m with 167m of it in 2011. Also the club only started to pay dividends yearly in 2016 from that point dividends plus interest paid have remained around 40m per year and that doesn't include finance incomes.
Plus after you said we pay taxes on our revenues imo you should stop trying to be the financial expert you clearly are not.
 

devilish

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The issue is that the people that can "afford" United don't want United, it's not a good investment unless if you make the club buy itself. Billionaires are for the vast majority not completely stupid when it comes to money and they are not going to give up a substantial amount of their actual wealth in order to have the right to spend even more money on a football club. If they really want to a football club, they will most likely look at far cheaper options.
Yet here we are. The Glazers doesn't want to sell at reasonable prices even though they would still making huge profits by selling up. Instead they are insisting on a silly valuation of the club that is pricing everyone out. I guess that United is a far better investment than anyone think.
 

JPRouve

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I decided to have a look but then I started to question myself what's the point of looking into the annual financial reports up to 2011? The club spent around £500m in 2011 and now it's 2020? Why you used the amount the club paid until 2011 to discuss when we're bloody in 2020?
You mentioned the last decade, so I used the last decade. Out of roughly 525m, 167m were paid in 2011.
 

JPRouve

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Yet here we are. The Glazers doesn't want to sell at reasonable prices even though they would still making huge profits by selling up. Instead they are insisting on a silly valuation of the club that is pricing everyone out. I guess that United is a far better investment than anyone think.
What do you mean by silly valuation and reasonable price? The club is publicly listed and it's public valuation is nearly 4bn, United is a good investment if you buy low like the Glazer kind of did between 2003-2006 and sell high, it could be a good investment if you make it buy itself but at 4bn it's now nearly impossible and it's not an investment if you use your personal assets and then spend on the team too.
 

SambaBoy

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A large majority of our fan base just criticise our transfer dealings no matter what, proportion blame without knowing the full facts.

They praise the club for getting one over on City by signing Sanchez. Call Di Maria, Schweinsteiger + Falcao some of the best signings we've ever made.

The board then change tact and target players on the up with european or international experience, whilst also targeting highly rated 15-17 years old from abroad, all for reasonable. I just feel some people moan for the sake of it.

We've been a bit slow this window but we obviously have our targets. VdB was one of them and we got him sealed with efficiency. Sancho has been hard which is to be expected for a deal of that magnitude. From reports, it seems that has been a collection of things as to why the deal hasn't happened yet or might not happen. If United as a club agreed from the start, they don't want to pay X in the current market, or pay certain fee's, then I'd expect them to stick to that. You go down a slippy slope if you just agree to unrealistic demands or demands that you agreed previously you wouldn't meet. The same people would then be complaining United are taken for mugs in the transfer market.

I've seen posters criticise us for getting beat to the signing of Reguilon by Spurs. If the board decided they didn't want a buy back clause in the deal and the others club have offered that to Madrid then fair enough, we leave the deal and go on to other targets. If you go down the list of other targets, and the clubs are sticking to unrealistic demands then you go without. Just signing players on deals that don't make economic sense to satisfy fans or bring in another body is no the way to go.

I think the board probably could have done better in the market, but I don't know the full story behind some of deals so I'm not going to act like it's FIFA or FM where buying players is simple.
 

devilish

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What do you mean by silly valuation and reasonable price? The club is publicly listed and it's public valuation is nearly 4bn, United is a good investment if you buy low like the Glazer kind of did between 2003-2006 and sell high, it could be a good investment if you make it buy itself but at 4bn it's now nearly impossible and it's not an investment if you use your personal assets and then spend on the team too.
The Glazers bought us for 800m. Assuming what you're saying is right and that we don't make enough profit for them then why not sell us for a reasonable price? Lets say 2BN? The Glazers would walk away with a huge profit that can be reinvested on something that is more profitable while United would hopefully get owners that can afford them. That makes business sense for both. I think there's more to it that meets the eye.
 

devilish

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A large majority of our fan base just criticise our transfer dealings no matter what, proportion blame without knowing the full facts.

They praise the club for getting one over on City by signing Sanchez. Call Di Maria, Schweinsteiger + Falcao some of the best signings we've ever made.

The board then change tact and target players on the up with european or international experience, whilst also targeting highly rated 15-17 years old from abroad, all for reasonable. I just feel some people moan for the sake of it.

We've been a bit slow this window but we obviously have our targets. VdB was one of them and we got him sealed with efficiency. Sancho has been hard which is to be expected for a deal of that magnitude. From reports, it seems that has been a collection of things as to why the deal hasn't happened yet or might not happen. If United as a club agreed from the start, they don't want to pay X in the current market, or pay certain fee's, then I'd expect them to stick to that. You go down a slippy slope if you just agree to unrealistic demands or demands that you agreed previously you wouldn't meet. The same people would then be complaining United are taken for mugs in the transfer market.

I've seen posters criticise us for getting beat to the signing of Reguilon by Spurs. If the board decided they didn't want a buy back clause in the deal and the others club have offered that to Madrid then fair enough, we leave the deal and go on to other targets. If you go down the list of other targets, and the clubs are sticking to unrealistic demands then you go without. Just signing players on deals that don't make economic sense to satisfy fans or bring in another body is no the way to go.

I think the board probably could have done better in the market, but I don't know the full story behind some of deals so I'm not going to act like it's FIFA or FM where buying players is simple.
We give silly salaries to players that doesn't deserve it, we are slow on the market, we buy players at ridiculous prices or not buy players at all. This year we bought 1 player and offloaded 1 player despite sinking in deadwood. Meanwhile talks of a DOF that might sort this issue had been going on for years with no solutions whatsoever and the stadium's roof is leaking. It's evident that we're badly managed

The Glazers bought on debt, the biggest club in the UK and one of the biggest clubs in Europe. They turned us into a club were fans celebrate a CL qualification as if we're Spurs or Atalanta. Is that acceptable for you?
 
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JPRouve

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The Glazers bought us for 800m. Assuming what you're saying is right and that we don't make enough profit for them then why not sell us for a reasonable price? Lets say 2BN? The Glazers would walk away with a huge profit that can be reinvested on something that is more profitable while United would hopefully get owners that can afford them.
Because 2BN is at least a 50% discount, at which point do you think that it's reasonable for anyone to do that? You are not asking for a reasonable price but a stupid one and even at 2BN the vast majority of billionaires won't purchase the club with their personal assets. There are a few that may do it like MBS but even for him that's doubtful, the main issue is that billionaires generally don't waste money, the ones that do are some of the ones that didn't create that wealth and are not trustworthy anyway.
 

devilish

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Because 2BN is at least a 50% discount, at which point do you think that it's reasonable for anyone to do that? You are not asking for a reasonable price but a stupid one and even at 2BN the vast majority of billionaires won't purchase the club with their personal assets. There are a few that may do it like MBS but even for him that's doubtful, the main issue is that billionaires generally don't waste money, the ones that do are some of the ones that didn't create that wealth and are not trustworthy anyway.
If the club isn't generating enough money then its worth selling it at a discount especially since it would bring the Glazers a healthy 1.2bn profit. Alternatively they should just sell all the shares at the stock market. That money could be reinvested into business that make enough money.

As said, I think there's more that meets the eye here.